Solar Power 101

T@Balong

Okay, I'll admit it, I know next to nothing about electricity.  In fact, I just had to read an online article to find out the different between watts, volts and amps!  Having confessed that, I am really interested in solar options for our T@B.  I have read all the pertinent posts in this forum on solar power and they are too technical for me.   My questions are:  what is a decent solar system to purchase for occasional use?   Does a portable Zamp system include everything I would need?   When camping without electrical hookup, our needs would be fairly simple: lights, water pump, charging of electronics, etc.   What resources can you folks who are well-versed in solar use and equipment recommend for those of us who know very little on this subject?

jkjenn

Norm, I think we a started there and I am still learning. Yes, Zamp would have everything you needed to get started. Renogy also has some reputable options but require a small amount of effort-mainly getting an SAE connector and stripping the correct end of the solar charger. I am going the route of Goal Zero, but am utilizing their charge controllers that were recently discontinued.

Whatever the setup, the essentials will be a panel, charge controller, and a way to connect to the battery. You can connect to the battery via the built in solar port using a 2 pin SAE cable. You can also connect to the battery by placing alligator clips directly on the battery terminals.

Nomad

I went Zamp because I didn't want to screw with anything - I didn't want to learn a whole lot. I just wanted plug-n-play and that's Zamp. I also got the large unit because there was no way I was going to figure out my energy needs and those needs change over time. I didn't want to find out later that I skimped and didn't have enough.
My Zamp has worked out unbelievably well. Have never had a reason to second guessed myself.

mash2

Don't know if this helps.  When I went through my sizing, I found a spreadsheet that I adapted to get a sense of how long I could boon dock. Depends on total battery AMPS, the efficiency of the your appliances, and how much you anticipate using them, and where and when in the year are you looking to travel.  I attached my spreadsheet.  

Perhaps folks could provide estimates of some of the key appliances to fill in for more recent T@B's.  If people are aware of the efficiencies of the current heater, fan, water pump, etc.  this might be useful for someone attempting sizing (at least a rough gauge).  It worked out fairly well for me (and I actually try to manage to the usage indicated in my spreadsheet).  There is a site listed on the spreadsheet that allows you to get a sense of the daily potential AMP charge from a panel at a given size.

In my case, it has worked out to be reasonably accurate assessment of what I needed, that has born out over time.

I built my own system for about $250 (136 watts) so I'm not a good source for a system, although I would echo PXLated that large is probably best approach for ZAMP.  

I try to charge the electronics in the tow vehicle when I'm out and about during the day so have managed to not turned to the T@B for most electronics....I use an inverter in the car to carry much of this load.  



Hope this helps....

T@Balong

Thanks all, for the responses.   I think for some of us who are electronically-challenged, figuring this all out on our own is like learning a foreign language.  So, let me try this another way.    I'm looking at solar generator kits for my 2014 T@B S Max.   Can anyone weigh in on either the Goal Zero Yeti 150 Solar Generator Kit or the Goal Zero Yeti 400 Solar Generator Kit?  Will these packages plug into the Zamp outlet on a T@B?   Which of these is the best package for occasional, but not primary boondocking experiences?   Do they include everything I would need for basic use?

jkjenn

Norm, neither of those will give you the juice you need for the T@b. The GZ 1250 would be the closest, but it is still not designed to charge your T@b or run the A\C. You could use one of the smaller GZ packs to power and charge your devices, however. I use 2 different GZ power packs to charge camera, phone, tablet, headlamps, and lanterns as well as to provide juice for 12v accessories like lights.

CodeJunkie

This is a subject I've been debating personally for some time now.  Today, I pulled the trigger and ordered the Zamp New Gen 160 watt portable solar system.  Most of my camping is boondocking, staying put in one campsite for several days/weeks.  For me, solar was a no-brainer.  

I can't tell you what my avg amp hour usage is when I camp.  I use the T@b lights only when needed; I run the Norcold on propane constantly, use the water pump, Alde when necessary.  I don't use the stereo.   For now, I'm very conservative with the Fantastic fan but think the solar will help with its battery draw so I can use it more.  My battery usually lasts me 4 days before I need to recharge. 

160 watt is a little overkill for my current (no pun intended) battery, but since I anticipate going to 2 golf cart batteries at sometime in the future, it made sense financially to go with the larger system now.  Anyway, this is why I made the decision to go solar and how I decided on the 160 watt panels.  They should be here in about a week.  Hope the info is useful.

kathyinca

Debbie, I'm curious what you think of the size of the 160 panels. I'd love to see a photo of them set up......I wonder if they just feel large and overwhelming or if it really doesn't matter once you are camping and you can really get them out of the way. That is the size I'm considering as well......

CodeJunkie

Kathy, the dimensions listed were 20" x 40" with the case closed and about 34 lbs.  Set up, it should be approximately 40" square.   I can handle the weight, and will stow in my TV when not in use.  There was very little size/weight difference between the 120 watt and 160 watt.  Once my system arrives and I can get it set up, I'll post some pix.

Nomad

Zamp makes a really nice case, easy to drag in/out of the TV - don't really notice the weight. Setup's easy and you just redirect a couple times a day. If camping in one spot for awhile it's no fuss no muss.
once you've had them for awhile you kind of take them into consideration when you're picking your camping spot so you aren't blocking them with either the T@B or TV. Ideally they can just sit in one spot and be rotated rather than picked up and moved.
You might want to get a fairly long security cable. I usually hook into the tongue or thru the drivers side wheel spokes. The front and back handles work well also.

wizard1880

We too bought the next-gen 160w Zamp with our T@b last year, and I can tell you it was one of the best accessories we got. The size is manageable, and in full sun puts out over 9a of power. This will charge a typical group 24 or 27 battery from dead in under 5 hours, easy. If you're thinking of growing the battery system it will keep up. Just keep it locked down if unattended!

T@Balong

For those of you who purchased the Zamp 160w, what went into your thinking when purchasing that size over against the Zamp 120w model?   Was it just that "bigger is better" or was it your feeling that the Zamp 120w would not be sufficient for your needs?   And if you have special requirements/needs, would a 120w model be sufficient for the average T@B?

radren

On the advice of many other RV owners, I had the dealer install (2) 6 volt golf cart batteries rather than the single battery they usually install. I had thought the battery came from the factory but it is the dealer who usually buys and installs the battery. It cost a hundred dollars more and they were able to fit into my little container in the front. I haven't run the batteries out yet but really haven't done any real camping yet. Does anyone know how long the two 6 volt batteries will last if you are careful when out boondocking?  Thanks

Michigan_Mike

I've been into solar for nearly 5 years now.  Although it sounds interesting to many and a good way to go it's definitely not for everyone.  The biggest question you need to ask yourself is "what would be the percentage of time you anticipate being off the grid and boon-docking?"  This requires a substantial investment of money and unless you plan to be in one place, off the grid and do not need shore power for considerable time, people shouldn't consider it.  These are the hard and cold facts, and you also need to research the varying construction/design and panels used.

I like to boon-dock on occasion, have a portable shower unit, power up an ARB refrigerator/freezer unit, run my TV, LED lights, Fantastic fan, CPAP unit, charge my iPhone and speakers, etc.  I've done all of this by managing my energy usage/consumption and by using an 80 watt Zamp portable panel to supplement my power needs via a golf cart size battery.  A 160 watt panel will be expensive and would be over kill in my opinion, unless of course you planned to install multiple golf cart sized batteries, plan to rough it for a few weeks and feel the need to run a pump, frig unit, lights, etc. at frequent intervals.  The larger size panel is also going to take up extra space, is heavier and is definitely overkill for the standard battery supplied and built into your T@B unit.  Bigger isn't necessarily better, but if you have money to burn then this might not matter.  

If it were me and I had a new T@B I would consider purchasing a couple of Renogy Monocrystalline flexible, 100 watt solar panels, mount them flush to the trailer roof, install a solar charge controller inside my trailer, wire the panels to my battery and be done with it.  This would probably amount to around a $500 investment, eliminates storage/handling issues and you have the ability to charge your trailer battery 100% of the time as long as there is ambient light present.

Look around, calculate your electrical usage/needs, stick with a monocrystalline panel and make your decision based on what you believe will meet the above, not because of what other people have purchased as many folks buy these set-ups, never use them, carry them around the country and end up selling them somewhere down the road.  Look around the Little Guy forum too as we have kicked this can around for quite a few years now and there are other seasoned users out there who have posted up a lot of good information.  Best of luck to you!  



   

jkjenn

Mike makes some great points. The other thing, if you don't want to permanently mount the Renogy panels is that you could use heavy-duty suction cups and hang them when you set up camp.

This might not be comforting, not it is really ok if you don't like the first solution you try. If you don't sell it and try another.

Nomad

Mike - All true and good advice. On the other hand, most of us will not go through all that. We want plug-n-play simplicity with as much capacity as we'll ever need.
If the factory offered the flex panels preinstalled and wired I may have considered that but there's no way I was going to do it myself even though I probably could.
But you're right, it depends on how much boondocking one is going to do. Expensive option (especially the bigger panels) if all you need is to charge a few devices once in awhile. For me, it was the best purchase I made other than the T@B itself.

[Deleted User]

CodeJunkie & PXLated, if I might ask, what are your battery set-ups, sizes, AH and number of batteries?  If you've posted this elsewhere, my apologies, I'm not the best at keeping this info organized!  This has been a good discussion and I appreciate everyone's input.  Tryin' to juggle watts, weight and cost!

T@Balong

I appreciate all of the good comments in this thread.   The reason I labeled it Solar Power 101 is that some of us here are not do-it-yourselfers when it comes to electronics and thus the plug and play option is attractive.   And while experienced forum folks may have visited this topic in years past, the combination of new technology and new people on this forum has made the topic a worthwhile one.  I agree that lugging around solar panels just for the sake of having them doesn't seem like a wise option.   Most people, with a little energy conservation, should be able to last a few days without an electrical hook-up, just on the strength of the standard T@B battery.   If that is our only boondocking experience, then perhaps jumping into the whole solar panel process is not necessary.   Again, thanks for all the good wisdom to be found here.

RZRBUG

OK, here's my next stupid question.  The newer T@Bs have connections already installed to plug in any solar future solar options.  Those who don't have this connection either have to run the wires directly to the battery or install a connection somewhere to plug in the controller.

Question:  Can a 12V plug (cigarette lighter) be used to connect the solar controller to the battery?  For example, if I have a 12V plug installed on my battery cover, why can't I wire a male end to the controller and just plug it in?  I mean, it has two wires coming out the back, one pos and one neg, that go directly to the battery.

RZRBUG

I sent my stupid question to a friend of mine who is a retired electrical engineer.  His one-word answer was, "Yes."  Since it was a one-word answer, I'm not sure what his opinion of the question was.  Anyway, any other opinions would be appreciated.

Nomad

Ark tech - The dealer was suppose to install 2 six volts but instead installed an Interstate 24. I didn't discover this until I was setting up a hundred miles away. My dealer was one of those that hands you the manuals, helps you hook up and waves goodbye. There were some other things they didn't do from my list either. At least they didn't charge me for what they didn't do.

jkjenn

Larry, no matter what, you need/want a solar charger/controller. It will help you regulate the charging of your battery.

The solar port on the T@b takes a 2 pin SAE connector. If you want to connect directly to the battery, you need either tray cables or alligator clips to run from the solar charger to the battery. 

RZRBUG

Thanks, Jenn.  Yes, I understand that, but my T@B does not have the solar port, but I do have a 12V plug installed on the box.  I've been looking at a Battery Tender brand that has the controller built onto the panel.  I will not be using it for boon docking, of course, just to maintain the battery.

jkjenn

Sorry, Larry! I totally misunderstood your question! Got it.

Michigan_Mike

You can buy the Zamp solar port and it's easy to mount and adapt to a battery.   

RZRBUG

 Well, Mike, I already have the 12V plug on the battery cover.  I also have the ARB plug installed on the cover, and I have a battery cutoff switch installed on the battery, and all three sets of sets of wires are connected to the battery terminals.  It's getting kinda crowded under there.  I know I could consolidate some of these wires, but since I already have the 12V plug available, I'm looking for the easy way out.  Thanks for the suggestions.

mash2

Wire size requirement for tender appears to be 16 gauge if it is under 25 foot.  Only question I can't answer is if the T@B unit will not like to play ball with the tender.  Doesn't the plug tie back thru the T@B converter before it makes its way to the battery?  Do you have a 110 tender to try out the proposed system and see if it behaves properly.  (Let me know if you don't).  I could probably hook up mine to see what performance you could get.  I think I could just alligator to my 12v and confirm this weekend.    However, given that the tender only needs 16 gauge, I would just wire in another connection directly to the battery (I would just alligator  clip to make it quick and easy, but that's my 2 cents).   

mash2

There are definitely alternatives to solar that would get you a lot of bang for your buck.  

You could add a 2nd battery to boost available amps before needing to renew your charge (I have 2 100 amp AGM batteries that boosted off grid capacity by about 3 times the original battery capacity).  On another thread, Rad was looking into a second battery charged through the TV and swapped to increase available amps (just hook plus and minus on a seven way charger plug and plug into your TV whenever you are out and about and then swap batteries when the T@B gets low).  The approach does give you "spare" capacity, so you won't run out of power (or if you do, just take a scenic drive and charge up the battery). Remember, no matter what steps you are taking, you are just setting aside potential energy for when you need it.  As Michigan Mike said, if you don't have battery capacity, it can be difficult to create sufficient battery capacity for unmonitored consumption. If more is needed, move up from there. 

My personal approach was in steps.  
First, I swapped out for AGM batteries (2) tripling the Amps.  Initially, I just charged the second battery in the TV (as outlined above).  For other reasons (lowering tongue weight-- unrelated to power issues),  I decided to move batteries into the T@B and after my first two month trip I decided to integrate a boost in the amount of power (AMPS) I had between charges for boon docking.  I hooked the batteries in parallel (one in each wheel well) and waited for a sale on panels and put together a 136 watt system for $220.  I've gone back and upgraded a couple of components since and toyed with the idea of additional panels but have remained conservative on adding more.   

Instead, I  use an inverter in the trunk of the TV for daytime electronics charging (laptop, phone, lithium camera batteries and AAA batteries for all the lighting that I added in the T@B to limit trailer battery draw).  As it stands now, I have refrained from upping power to move the electronic charging into the T@B, and have not had any issues requiring me to  reign in my unbridled electronic gadget consumption.  Laptop has 10 hours between charges, phone is charged from a small 30000 mAh solar charger that I picked up for $14 and the laptop and other items are serviced by the inverter plugged into a power plug in the TV (I run a multi outlet extension from the back of the car to my charging area under the driver seat and charge my ungodly range of power hungry photo equipment.  This worked out extremely well on my second multi month outing and at least for now have settled into a rhythm for wrestling power needs in this framework.  Might change my mind later, but this approach has worked for me.  (I definitely limit my power needs in the T@B to stretch battery capacity, but each person has their preferences in this regard).  

I guess I would suggest that you consider incrementally adding to your capacity in a way that allows you to build into a stronger system if you decide you want one (like augmenting battery storage capacity) if you decide you want a more comprehensive.  Try simple steps that augment power capacity (trying to avoid dead ends) and decide if offers you the capacity in a reasonable manner and plan around these adjusting the things that you'd like to make easier, more fluid or that augment capacity.   A single system that is additive (Goal Zero seems to offer simplicity in integrating additional capacity in their systems - I don't own any so it's not a recommendation, but worth looking at).   

Also remember, things change over time, both your needs and the technology to meet your needs.  Solar panels are not always interchangeable so adding capacity can get more complex - though I plan on adding a second controller if I ever decide to augment capacity and have a spare controller set aside if this eventuality presents itself.

  

RZRBUG

mash2 said:

Wire size requirement for tender appears to be 16 gauge if it is under 25 foot.  Only question I can't answer is if the T@B unit will not like to play ball with the tender.  Doesn't the plug tie back thru the T@B converter before it makes its way to the battery?  Do you have a 110 tender to try out the proposed system and see if it behaves properly.  (Let me know if you don't).  I could probably hook up mine to see what performance you could get.  I think I could just alligator to my 12v and confirm this weekend.    However, given that the tender only needs 16 gauge, I would just wire in another connection directly to the battery (I would just alligator  clip to make it quick and easy, but that's my 2 cents).   

If you are plugged into shore power, the T@B's converter does regulate the battery charge.  If you connect a "battery tender" to the battery with no shore power, the converter is out of the loop, at least that is my understanding.  The plug is one that I installed myself on the battery cover and is wired directly to the battery terminals.

I do have a 110 Battery Tender that I can try this out with.  I have to run an extension cord about 100 ft. to get there.  That is the reason I was looking for a small solar tender; no extension cord.

BTW:  Thanks for the explanation of your setup and suggestions.

jkjenn

Larry, I just got the GZ Maintainer 10 as a solar battery tender. So far, I have been happy with the results. It comes with alligator clips and an SAE connector. The battery charger is built into the panel.

CodeJunkie

As stated above, 160 watts is overkill for my Interstate 24 that I now have but will be perfect for the two 6 volt batteries I'll be upgrading to this summer.  I rarely camp using shore power, almost exclusively boondock, and hope to be a full-time RV'er within the next two years.  These were MY reasons for choosing solar and the size system I chose.  I went with Zamp because they have a great reputation for a superior product, and for simplicity of use.

As for money to burn, I doubt many people have that luxury in today's economy...I certainly don't (another reason I boondock).  Also, why I do not want the expense of adding more solar later.  I received an unexpected $500 gift card for Christmas and the purchase of the Zamp was my gift to myself.  I only had to add $255.  No taxes (I purchased from Solardealz in Oregon) and free shipping.  I feel like I got a heck of a deal.

I agree, if you aren't going to use it...OFTEN...it will be a waste of money, and there are other less expensive options out there, i.e. dual batteries.  No one knows what your camping style/needs are but you.