KIB Systems monitor vs. SeeLevel II

dhauf

I noticed the new 2019 Tabs are all coming with the KIB systems monitors now.  My 2018 had the SeeLevel II system, what are the differences?  From what I can tell it looks like NuCamp has decided to go back to the probe sensors in the tanks and the SeeLevel system has them mounted externally.  Does anyone have the new KIB monitor?  If so how has the accuracy been compared to the SeeLevel system?  I was told NuCamp had too many warranty issues with SeeLevel, so they started using KIB which they say is a better system.

MuttonChops

dhauf said:

I noticed the new 2019 Tabs are all coming with the KIB systems monitors now.  My 2018 had the SeeLevel II system, what are the differences? 

Does anyone have the new KIB monitor?

If so how has the accuracy been compared to the SeeLevel system?

In addition to the sensor type being different KIB Systems I've used/seen do not have a battery voltage display instead they used the tank level LEDs with near useless voltage trip points.

My real world experience with KIB Monitors was on boats and I found KIB to be of limited value.  Fresh and Gray water in general work fine with the Empty 1/3, 2/3 Full LED display.  The Black water tank can be very inaccurate depending on the probe type used.  The standard probe can get coated with waste and/or paper that causes false readings.  There are aftermarket probes with covers/shield to reduce this problem . . . on a boat it's easy to access & replace the black water tank probes, won't be easy if even possible on a T@B.

Reference:

Changing back to KIB Monitors is IMHO another example of nuCamp making poor choices on what brand/models of equipment they install.  While the design, construction of T@B units is excellent items like the sink, water fixtures, power center, tires, and now Tank Monitor are the same lowest price / low end brands/models found in every other cheaply built box RV on the market.  Which is a disappointment considering the T@B price range compared to those other guys.

Sharon_is_SAM

Does KIB sell external tank monitors?

MuttonChops

Sharon_is_SAM said:

Does KIB sell external tank monitors?

My research (while a boat owner) is no, KIB Systems only use 'in tank' probes.

The basic KIB System measures water resistance value (voltage drop) with three probe locations, the 'tank contents' voltage is compared to a set reference value, when the tank value is above (or below for empty) the reference then the level LED turns on.

External tank monitors use a completely different method.  SeeLevel is a dielectric (Capacitive) system that senses the difference between Air and Liquid.  Clearly a more complex technology than KIB which could be a source of warranty service.  Ideally, nuCamp should be working with Garnet-SeeLevel to solve the problem not switching back to a known poor for real world user alternate system.

Odd one of the pluses that helped me justify spending so much on a T@B product (compared to R-Pod, etc) was T@B had the SeeLevel.

Sharon_is_SAM

@MuttonChops, NuCamp does not read all of these threads.  I am sure they would value your experience.  You can share your info with Marvin and Renee at NuCamp RV.com.

dhauf

Thats a bummer, I was hoping the KIB system would have been better, I did like the SeeLevel system but doubt I will be getting that in the new 2019 once they swap my trailer out since they have discontinued their use.  On the plus side I don't really car about the battery monitor as I can just use the bluetooth app on my phone to keep track of that accurately.  I have read that if you use the GEO method instead of the chemicals in your black tank that it will keep the probes working accurately.

dhauf

One other thing I noticed on my 2018 Tab there is a access hatch under the sink to get to the black tank.  Once taken off you can see the SeeLevel II sensor stuck to the side.  Perhaps that is where they will install the KIB system monitor probes.  If so that would make servicing it much easier if needed in the future.

MuttonChops

dhauf said:

. . . access hatch under the sink to get to the black tank. 

. . . Perhaps that is where they will install the KIB system monitor probes.

      If so that would make servicing it much easier if needed in the future.

Would be nice, however KIB installation manual instructs to place the three probes in a staircase pattern instead of a ladder so the access panel would have to be the full length of the cabinet wall.

dhauf

MuttonChops said:

dhauf said:

. . . access hatch under the sink to get to the black tank. 

. . . Perhaps that is where they will install the KIB system monitor probes.

      If so that would make servicing it much easier if needed in the future.

Would be nice, however KIB installation manual instructs to place the three probes in a staircase pattern instead of a ladder so the access panel would have to be the full length of the cabinet wall.

Darn, oh well was a thought.  I wonder if its accessible when taking the belly pan off the trailer?

MuttonChops

dhauf said:

  I wonder if its accessible when taking the belly pan off the trailer?

Doubtful, believe the black tank is above the floor (in cabin space) while other two tanks are below the floor.

jkjenn

dhauf said:

 From what I can tell it looks like NuCamp has decided to go back to the probe sensors in the tanks and the SeeLevel system has them mounted externally.  .

Since they did not use any sensors before they used the Sea Level, they can't "go back." My T@b had no sensors but I have it pretty well worked out how much I can use the tanks before needing to dump.

Verna

I consider the KIB sensors to be a step up since that is what is on Winnebago’s and other larger RV’s.

I agree with nüCamp that the SeeLevels were not always accurate, and I tolerated the inaccuracies.

I’m still getting used to the KIB monitors in my 400 and they do seem to be as accurate as percentages can be. I’m actually very happy with them. 

dhauf

Verna said:

I consider the KIB sensors to be a step up since that is what is on Winnebago’s and other larger RV’s.

I agree with nüCamp that the SeeLevels were not always accurate, and I tolerated the inaccuracies.

I’m still getting used to the KIB monitors in my 400 and they do seem to be as accurate as percentages can be. I’m actually very happy with them. 

Good to know Verna, yes John from NuCamp mentioned to my parents who also have a Tab 320S on order, that they no longer use SeeLevel due to warranty issues and some reliability issues and they view the KIB systems to be more reliable.  I would imagine that NuCamp wants what would be the most reliable and trouble free in their campers so I am fine with that, if its what they are using.  I have noticed there is quite a price difference between the two systems though, but I guess it doesn't always mean more expensive is better.  My friend has a 1999 Winnebago Class A and his KIB systems still work, we have noted the black tank can read inaccurately from time to time.  I guess if his is still working after 19 years then thats pretty reliable in my book.  The SeeLevel is definitely fancier looking though.  Just was curious to see if anyone had a 2019 Tab and how they like the KIB monitors.

Verna

@dhauf, I have the 2019 T@B 400 with the KIB monitors. It’s the same, except mine has more light switches. The 2019 320 and the 2019 400 uses KIB monitors. 

MuttonChops

IMHO nuCamp should add an optional Quality Battery Monitor for units with KIB monitors and without the factory solar system to save buyers from having to aftermarket install a more realistic useful battery SOC indicator.

My experience with KIB as a tank level monitor was not great as noted in earlier posts . . . KIB is the industry standard due to price not performance . . .

While my T@B 320 is still new the SeeLevel has been very impressive.

I've added water by the gallon to all tanks and been very pleased with  how the SeeLevel % matches the actual gallons added.  Have also compared the SeeLevel Battery Voltage reading to a voltmeter at the battery with different VDC loading and the voltage readings have been 100% equal.

It's my believe that makes the SeeLevel a far more useful system than the KIB.

nuCamp should be pushing Garnet-SeeLevel to solve quality/reliability issues or have Garnet-SeeLevel review/train nuCamp Engineering & Production on the best practice sensor placement & installation if this is a nuCamp caused problem.

My fear is nuCamp marketing is forcing nuCamp Engineering to accept a higher profit margin solution.

dhauf

MuttonChops said:

IMHO nuCamp should add an optional Quality Battery Monitor for units with KIB monitors and without the factory solar system to save buyers from having to aftermarket install a more realistic useful battery SOC indicator.

My experience with KIB as a tank level monitor was not great as noted in earlier posts . . . KIB is the industry standard due to price not performance . . .

While my T@B 320 is still new the SeeLevel has been very impressive.

I've added water by the gallon to all tanks and been very pleased with  how the SeeLevel % matches the actual gallons added.  Have also compared the SeeLevel Battery Voltage reading to a voltmeter at the battery with different VDC loading and the voltage readings have been 100% equal.

It's my believe that makes the SeeLevel a far more useful system than the KIB.

nuCamp should be pushing Garnet-SeeLevel to solve quality/reliability issues or have Garnet-SeeLevel review/train nuCamp Engineering & Production on the best practice sensor placement & installation if this is a nuCamp caused problem.

My fear is nuCamp marketing is forcing nuCamp Engineering to accept a higher profit margin solution.

I have noted the price differences between the monitoring systems and there is a major difference in costs.  It is nice to have the exact percentages of how much you have in your tanks however.  This is one thing I will miss when I swap my 2018 for the 2019 unit.  Honestly even though the voltage readout is accurate, it really does not accurately reflect the capacity remaining in your battery.  As soon as you put a decent draw on the battery the voltage will go down which is normal.  Unless you know what your looking at, that voltage readout really doesn't do anything super useful.  Since I have the factory solar the bluetooth monitoring is very good and will tell you not only state of charge but how many Amp hours went into the battery and how many AH went out of the battery, which is much more useful especially when boondocking then just a simple voltage readout.  For those without the factory solar set up, it would be nice to include a battery capacity monitor especially for keeping track of this.  However, most people that will want to boondock will probably purchase one of the boondock editions which will already have the solar and bluetooth monitoring installed.  There are many nice low cost options to add one on that are simple enough for most people to do.  Like this meter which utilizes a current shunt to measure how much amp draw on the battery and will give you watt hours as well. https://www.amazon.com/Voltmeter-DROK-Multimeter-Discharge-Wireless/dp/B07C13ZV1N/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1534377905&sr=8-6&keywords=battery+capacity+monitor&th=1

There is a main 10gauge power wire from the battery that goes to the WFCO box that feeds all the 12V items, you can probably just splice it right into that i'm guessing and then mount the display somewhere.

Here is another inexpensive one that you can install right at the battery and then use bluetooth to monitor it from your phone. https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Battery-Monitor-Voltage-Wireless/dp/B074ZCM6YC/ref=pd_sbs_469_5?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B074ZCM6YC&pd_rd_r=22fde9f9-a0e9-11e8-aaac-a344d5c1b4cd&pd_rd_w=c4yEl&pd_rd_wg=pOTkm&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=ebf3f80b-3878-4fb9-8381-bbec92f92693&pf_rd_r=HN2CSCDAXBR86MRYKVHT&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=HN2CSCDAXBR86MRYKVHT

jkjenn

Honestly, the battery monitor on the Sea Level was hardly quality. If you want accurate info you need a monitor with a shunt. I am not aware of any RV dealer who offers, proactively, a battery monitor with a shunt. Nücamp will install the battery monitor that you send them when they build your trailer, however.

dhauf

dhauf said:

One other thing I noticed on my 2018 Tab there is a access hatch under the sink to get to the black tank.  Once taken off you can see the SeeLevel II sensor stuck to the side.  Perhaps that is where they will install the KIB system monitor probes.  If so that would make servicing it much easier if needed in the future.

Actually you can get to all the probes on the black tank.  Here is a picture of it.