320 S Passenger Wall Frames & MORE = = What do we know?

MuttonChops

I'd like to have a reference drawing of the framing to help with future modification projects. An while I have not actually asked nüCamp for a complete frame location drawing some forum members have commented they have not been able to obtain that level of construction detail. So we need to collectivity build the knowledge during our various projects/tours/nüCamp conversations.

We are beginning to acquire bits & pieces of the outer wall frame placement in the Azdel Composite Wall.

= -  During the recent Doorway Exit Grab Handle discussion we learned from nüCamp how the door latch side
       cut-out edge and forward side window cut-out edge do have 1x1 inch Aluminum Framing.
= -  Several factory floor tour pictures taken by forum members clearly show Aluminum at most
       of the wall outer edges. In some pictures it is not 100% clear there is Aluminum.
= -  Finally, one mods posting about adding a rear area wire shelf notes that Aluminum Frame was
       found when screwing in a mounting bracket.

       RED = = = nüCamp conversation
Off-RED = = = Tour Pictures (ceiling line)
     BLUE = = = guess
  GREEN = = = reported in a mod posting (dimensions and trailer side not clear)

BrianZ

Great idea, @MuttonChops and I hope this topic grows into a veritable library of wall framing knowledge, which at present seems like a well kept secret as well as a source of frustration for modders.

I believe the rear wire shelf bracket item on your list was mine here..
http://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/92423
The screw which went into metal framing was the one on the 3rd photo at the rear corner.  I'd have to measure to be precise, but I seem to recall that I drilled about an inch or so from the ceiling.  At the time it was a surprise, because I was only expecting support from the thin wall.

I believe this should not imply any vertical wall stud, but rather it is just the perimeter wall framing.  This framing is clearly shown in @CincyKid 's photo #12 here..
https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/7276/t-b-320-factory-photos-showing-locations-of-items-before-hidden-in-walls/p1
Although this does not show the vertical width of the framing, as to how far it extends inside the wall, but I'd bet it's at least 1.5" for strength in supporting the roof.
His second photo shows how the ceiling framing (spaced 8" OC) is tied into the perimeter wall framing.

I'll see if I can get a more precise measurement of my screw locations, but both side walls have the same brackets going into metal.

BTW, my second photo of the bracket going into wood on the driver side also shows a pocket hole screw which mounts the rear vertical shelf support into the wall, but whether that goes into metal or not is another question.  It might be possible to explore that further by removing the screw & probing the hole.  If it goes inside a metal tube, a curved paperclip wire should rotate freely, while it would not inside foam.

Also' I'd be surprised if the red vertical stud shown in your drawing next to the window really exists as shown, though it might be more likely on the other side.
Maybe something like this..

Seems less than ideal that they would use a "floating" frame around the window without tying in to other framing, but who knows?
The necessity of the vertical green one at rear seems questionable to me.

CincyKid

have you considered using an electronic stud finder to probe the walls to look for indications of solid material behind the wall material?

BrianZ

I have an electronic studfinder that I used for a home wiring project last year, so may test that out.  Good idea.

BrianZ

Checked my wire shelf screws that were both in metal and they were @ 3/4" from the ceiling corner.  My first test pilot hole was at 7/8" from the corner & hit metal; another  hole for a bracket screw was at 1.5" from the corner & there was no metal.  Based on this, I would guess the wall perimeter frame extends only one inch from the corner.

Those are the only holes I made near the wall-ceiling corner; though I have some cargo net mounting brackets that are screwed into different ceiling studs that are spaced every 8" from seams in the ceiling.

My stud-finder found bupkis.  I tested it with a fresh battery on my house wall & it found both sides of wood studs under drywall, but it could not find ceiling studs at all in our T@B, even where I knew they were there.  It is supposed to work on metal studs too, but I suspect they must be steel or some kind of ferrous metal and not aluminum.

MuttonChops

BrianZ said:

Checked my wire shelf screws that were both in metal and they were @ 3/4" from the ceiling corner.  My first test pilot hole was at 7/8" from the corner & hit metal; another  hole for a bracket screw was at 1.5" from the corner & there was no metal.  Based on this, I would guess the wall perimeter frame extends only one inch from the corner.

Thanks and agree. I estimated your shelf bracket screw at 11/16 from ceiling using your installation picture    [updated right hand side figure 12-9-18]

BrianZ said:

Maybe something like this.. [picture omitted here]

Seems less than ideal that they would use a "floating" frame around the window without tying in to other framing, but who knows?
The necessity of the vertical green one at rear seems questionable to me.

Am thinking your picture is more correct - -  will update my file - - also think a 'floating' frame for the window would be less than ideal but our probing does seem to support the nüCamp statement of metal "around door, window, and exterior edge only"  provided in a PM response to this thread. Perhaps the added strength of Azdel over light wood it replaces combined with the dense foam & exterior frame provides all the vertical strength needed . . .

MuttonChops

Here Is Version 2

Not Very Impressive

Any information on the Wheel Well out there?  Curved or Square . . .

ScottG

I'm not certain, but I suspect v2 is closest to reality.

Unlike wooden box campers, the T@B's roof (constructed with an arched aluminum ladder frame) is the primary structural component. The walls are not load bearing, so they require no vertical strength beyond that needed to support their own limited weight. And while the door might need a little reinforcement to keep it tight, any moderately rigid panel should be strong enough to hold a plastic window in place. There's no reason to install additional framing components that are structurally unnecessary.

BrianZ

You are probably right about V2 @Scott, and when you say "primary structural component", if you mean it has the largest amount of structural framing inside, that makes sense to me.  However, I am puzzled how the roof could be the primary structural component if it depends on the wall to hold it up? 
I say this because I just reviewed "The Air Force Guy"'s 320 factory tour video, and it shows a roof panel (@ 3:30) that appears to cover only the back of the roof up to a point just forward of the ceiling fan.  So it looks as if the roof goes on in two pieces.  If that's the case, wouldn't it depend on the wall for support?  While I understand the principle of an arch, it seems like the wall could be providing some needed support to the roof by both it's own complete arch plus maybe a vertical stud at the rear of the door (and presumably another in the opposite wall).
And then there is the argument that each component depends partly on the other to provide the support each needs.  The two vertically stacked 1-inch arches in both wall & ceiling together provide a 2-inch tall double arch.

https://youtu.be/goJTMwQXVLU

Homebodyatheart

@BrianZ and @MuttonChops I discovered by accident that a great way to find the aluminum framing is to close the Tab up tight, sleep in it and in the morning condensation will be where the framing is, including inside your cupboards. (And yes, lesson learned!)  Also remember that NuCamp has two runs each model year. Major changes are annual, changes related to safety, etc, are mid-year according to NuCamp. As owners created helpful mods NuCamp incorporated many of them. A late 2015 model will be a bit different from an early 2015 model, etc. I’m enjoying and learning from this thread, thanks to all! 

ScottG

@BrianZ, check out the unfinished roof panels in the attached photos--you can see the aluminum skeleton pretty clearly. Regardless of whether the roof is assembled as one or two pieces, it still forms a stable arch (of sorts) that has more than enough material to be self-supporting. As such, the walls do not necessarily "hold up" the roof as would be the case in a more traditional structure.

That's not to say the walls don't add some additional support and rigidity--particularly since, as you noted, they incorporate their own aluminum arch--but they almost certainly don't bear enough load to require additional vertical supports within the wall itself. The presence of such additional supports seemed to be the original question, and what I was addressing in my previous comment.

Of course I didn't design the T@B (and I'm not about to tear mine apart to test my hypothesis) but I'll bet you a nickel I'm right!  :-)  

MuttonChops

BrianZ said:

. . . My stud-finder found bupkis.

. . . tested it with a fresh battery on my house wall & it found both sides of wood studs under drywall, but it could not find ceiling studs at all in our T@B

What Brand / Model # stud-finder did you use ?

Some claim to work with non-ferrous metal.

BrianZ

@MuttonChops , mine apparently only detects ferrous metal studs because it does not specify nonferrous, just "metal"..

Zircon StudSensor e50 Electronic Wall Scanner https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HTFHOEI

MuttonChops

BrianZ said:

Zircon StudSensor e50 Electronic Wall Scanner

Thanks, Zircon MultiScanner 460 is the lowest model with non-ferrous metal detection claimed.

BrianZ

@ScottG, when you said, "the door might need a little reinforcement to keep it tight", were you envisioning something other than a full height vertical stud?  I assume that what you're betting the nickel for, is that there is not a full vertical stud there, so what other kind of reinforcement might the door need/have, other than a vertical stud? I probably wouldn't take that bet though.

MuttonChops

Time for Version 3.1 [x.1 edited]

Have been replaying, pausing the different Factory Tour videos.  Once in awhile the image captures the doorway or wheel well edges . . . but video quality is very low. 

Comparing the bright white of a known foam cut-out to the darker grayish edges suggests the doorway and wheel well are edged with Aluminum square tube.  Of course there are also a couple images that could be showing  whiter foam in the doorway arch - - too few images and poor quality to be certain one way or other.

Have also noticed the Roof Rail offset/overlap of the outer fiberglass+Azdel is around the entire wall panel (a change from v1 & v2).  In addition to the roof ladder arrangement there is a ladder frame on the bottom aft of the floor end and would suspect another ladder under the diamond plate - - have not seen a picture.

ScottG

@BrianZ, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a vertical stud (or two) at the door; not to support the roof, but just to stiffen the doorway as it is subject to rough use.

Again, I don't really know--I'm just offering a hypothesis based on general knowledge of structural (and economic) principles. How about one of you who has a vested interest in this call or write nuCamp and just ask 'em if there are any additional metal or wood framing elements in the side panels? They'll probably tell ya!

BrianZ

My interest is more academic at this point, since I've already got a grab handle solution near the door that works.  It would be nice to have wall framing info though, for potential future projects, since this is at least my second project where wall framing info could have saved me from drilling unnecessary pilot holes in my wall.

I believe this thread grew out @Bill@ndRox's grab handle topic where he offered to take the lead in contacting NüCamp, then @jgram2 provided them a link to the thread, but I've never seen NuCamp contribute info to the discussion (understandable, as I'm sure they have more important things to do).  I've not had great success contacting NüCamp by phone, but thanks for the reminder, @ScottG, as I  am still waiting for parts info from August while using duct tape to hold things together.

ScottG

To the best of my knowledge, no one from nuCamp actively monitors the forum. They do occasionally make an official announcement or seek to pass on some important info, but that's usually done through the admins/mods, who make the actual post.

MuttonChops

Anyone know for sure how the standard rear spare tire mount area is constructed?  I've only located one tour picture which suggests the area has a 5/8 inch piece of plywood.

MuttonChops

SIDEWALL Frame & Metal Support Straps

I've attempted to capture everything we have learned from factory tour pictures, our experience, conversations with nüCamp, and the nüCamp Passenger Side Sidewall drawing posted on another thread in a single PDF file.

Have also input the information into a simple drafting CAD program so corrections and additions of new information can be completed.
File attached for your review, comment, usage. Dec-18-18 Update

BrianZ

Nice drawings, @MuttonChops.
Just one minor comment..
The 3D images on pages 1 & 6 are both rendered with a perspective as viewed from above; so my brain was suitably conditioned to render the next 3D image on page 7 from the same perspective (viewed from above & behind it), which puts the door on the wrong side.  It took me a while to be able to see it properly, as if viewed from below like you were laying on the ground on drivers side & in front of it & looking up at it, then the door appears on the correct side.
I think keeping the same viewing perspective for all 3D images in the document, if possible, might help avoid creating a brain teaser.

The 3D view on page 8 is even harder for me to reorient my viewing perspective.  I know what part I'm supposed to be looking at, but at first cannot picture from what angle I am supposed to be viewing it & it seems confusing.  I think maybe it's drawn as if the viewer is laying on the ground close to & parallel to the drivers side with head towards the rear and behind the rear end looking up under the rear at an angle?

Still, very helpful to have these 3D images to be able to see through the structure how it all fits together.  And I see you used colors to show the two separate ceiling framing "ladder" pieces that support the roof.
Nicely done!

UPDATE: 
Some of my comments above may have been rendered moot since I first made them, by virtue of @MuttonChops having updated his pdf document with a new version.
My brain still struggles with page 7, but at least we can now see the intended interpretation.  Thanks, that helps!

Bayliss

I was reviewing the Air Force Guy video on the 320 S again.........at around 4:25 in the video, a worker jumps up on a ladder and runs a bead of caulk from the area of what appears to me to be the back end of the roof vent and over to the passenger sidewall of the camper.  Any idea why he would be doing that?  My initial thought is that it is possibly to caulk a connection of two sections of the roof (as suggested by @BrianZ above).  However, it appears to me from looking at the rear piece of the roof shown at 3:30 in the video, that that portion extends slightly past the front edge of the roof vent frame.  Just curious............

BrianZ

@Bayliss, the T@B at 4:25 in the video appears to be a 400 model, not a 320, so maybe a different design.  On the other hand, caulking a seam on the outside only implies something about the location of a seam in the outer skin, not necessarily about the location of a joint in the frame.  That said, I would think that colocating joints in framing with seams in outer skin would facilitate repairs if ever needed.

Bayliss

Thanks @BrianZ.  Guess I should have looked closer at the model # being worked on.

Bayliss

I just came across this January 9, 2019 video posted by "The Air Force Guy" describing the T@B 320 construction process.  I may be wrong, but I do not believe it has been posted on this forum previously.  From my perspective, it provides a much clearer visual description of how the 320 is assembled, including the roof and sidewalls.  For example, I had not previously seen the foam inserts they place between the roof framing, or the aluminum foil type liner they add between the roof framing and the aluminum roof (starting around 4:19 in the video).  I am now curious if my 2019 320 S (built in 2018) has that aluminum liner, or if that is something nüCamp has recently added.  When combined with his previous 320 construction video, you get a pretty good idea of how the camper is put together.  (Greg) 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvzuQUGto-g

Here is a January 7, 2019 video on the construction of the T@B 400 which I have not previously seen as well.  I apologize if these videos have already been posted.  (Greg)

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if066aMnC2U