Another Plumbing Leak/New Access Panel

BrianZ

That's awesome, @ScottG, and great work!  Clever use of materials for an efficient & low cost job.  Glad to see how your well thought-out plan worked so splendidly.  Now you are an official pioneer and ready for any future adventures into the nether region!
Just one question..  please tell me the redish looking splatter below your new cover is not from getting your hand too close to your hole saw!  😳
Thanks for showing us the way.

PS:
Did you have to measure the size of your head first, so you'd be able to fit it inside the hole to look around?  Hope you allowed for a bit extra, as it may have expanded since your big success!
(Reminds me of an episode of Big Bang Theory when Sheldon got his head stuck in a hole in the wall, because his genius mind was curious what was inside.)

ScottG

Ooh, that is a little gruesome looking...

The plywood in the wall is reddish. Mix some of it with the water I had spilled on the floor and voila! Instant blood splatter!

4ncar

@ScottG just getting to see this now. You answered the question, I see, and sailed on past. Good work!

Ratkity

@Fergie said it before I could. The pump and the pressure regulator prevents high pressure on those fittings. Not like the >100 psi in my house. Yes, I know. I need a pressure regulator, but OMGoshness, I have the best showers!!!

4ncar

Ratkity said:

Not like the >100 psi in my house.

😳 yes you do!! I believe that is the max for cpvc piping & fixtures. If you have copper piping and old fashioned plumbing fixtures you may be ok, but....

ScottG

After cutting it out, I dissected the offending connection but could see no obvious flaw in either the plastic fitting or the PEX tubing. There was no reason it should drip, but it did. My top theories (in increasing order of likelihood):

• Plastic fittings aren't very good. This problem is more common than one might think, but since the leak is so small and only occurs under pressure it can go unnoticed unless you inspect very closely. (MORAL: Don't go looking for trouble.)
• In tightening down the hose from the outlet of the pump, I over-torqued the fitting just enough to break the perfect seal between the fitting and the pipe. (MORAL: Don't fix stuff that ain't broken.)
• Bringing this topic up in my very first forum discussion in 2015 was a jinx. I was automatically destined to suffer the fate I had foreseen. (MORAL: Don't go asking for trouble.)
• My T@B just knew how badly I wanted to cut a hole so (like Sheldon) I could stick my head in the wall and take a look around. Being the thoughtful little camper that it is, it sprung a tiny gentle leak so I would have an excuse to indulge myself. (MORAL: T@Bs are sweet.)

Further, deeper leaks may require enlarging the hole and installing a larger, prettier cover made of something like 1/4" white Plexi. I'll tackle that when and if the need arises.     

jgram2

Well @ScottG, if #4 is true, I see a larger hole and prettier cover in your future.

GibW

Wow! Nice job. Thanks for all the detailed documentation. 

ChanW

And in the meantime, you have a spare cutting board with you, with easy accessability, for any larger get-togethers! 

jgram2 said:

Well @ScottG, if #4 is true, I see a larger hole and prettier cover in your future.

Michigan_Mike

Well done, thanks for adding the photos and it's great when a plan comes together!  

ScottG

Just reporting back that the Shark Bite push-on repair has survived its first outing without leaking. I'm still not convinced I would use these in my house where the pressure is constant and the plumbing is frequently left unattended, but I cautiously think they are a good solution in this application, especially considering the difficulties in getting crimp or clamp tools into tight spaces.

Ideally, I'd like to make these repairs with expansion fittings, but that requires a slightly different PEX from what appears to be used in the T@B.

ChanW

Well Scott, I appreciate your test!

I confess, I've gone the 'blind faith' way with Sharkbites, trusting the company and their 25? year warranty, and I've installed them in our home. But I don't know if they ever intended quite the continual vibration that an RV can provide!

They certainly are handy in those impossible-to-deal-with spaces. 

Ratkity

4ncar said:

Ratkity said:

Not like the >100 psi in my house.

😳 yes you do!! I believe that is the max for cpvc piping & fixtures. If you have copper piping and old fashioned plumbing fixtures you may be ok, but....

I have a 1935 circa house that has hard copper plumbing. Even so, it needs a pressure regulator. I'd still have great showers. I'm worried that as plumbing ages (including to the house from the street) the diameter of the inside of the pipes decrease due to mineral build-up. It appears much of the house piping has been fully replaced prior to me moving there - I'd say it's about 20 yrs old.

ChanW

We had a little lesson, and learned something new, a few years after moving into our 1860s farmhouse. The plumbing was not so old (outhouse as recently as the 1960s), but some was the thin wall flexible copper tubing. Cheaper, I think...

So, combined with the low-ph acidic water, the piping had been eaten away from the inside. Nothing on the outside to indicate, until it began to seep. 

We finally found the leak behind the washing machine, after it had rotted the floor!

Before that, I'd thought copper was great. Now I see the point in softener systems, even if hard water is preferred.

I'd bring that pressure down, 'fi were you! 

Ratkity said:

4ncar said:

Ratkity said:

Not like the >100 psi in my house.

😳 yes you do!! I believe that is the max for cpvc piping & fixtures. If you have copper piping and old fashioned plumbing fixtures you may be ok, but....

I have a 1935 circa house that has hard copper plumbing. Even so, it needs a pressure regulator. I'd still have great showers. I'm worried that as plumbing ages (including to the house from the street) the diameter of the inside of the pipes decrease due to mineral build-up. It appears much of the house piping has been fully replaced prior to me moving there - I'd say it's about 20 yrs old.

ScottG

I have (mostly) PEX in my house. It was just gaining in popularity when I installed it in 1997. I used the expansion fittings mentioned previously, though there are very few actual fittings as it is a "home-run" system where every fixture attaches directly back to a central manifold. It's been trouble-free for 22 years (hope I didn't just jinx it...) so I certainly have no aversion to PEX or a particular affinity for copper.

The thing with those push-on fittings is that you are ultimately relying on an o-ring to maintain their integrity. I'm not sure I'm ready to put that much faith long-term in a little ring of rubber.

The issue of vibration in an RV is also a valid point. I recall reading something where the company said something to the effect of "Intended to be used in permanent structures and not guaranteed for RV use blah blah blah..." but realistically--at least in the case of the T@B--I don't see any other repair options that would not require more extensive demolition.

BrianZ

Glad to hear your Sharkbites survived their first trip, @ScottG.  I never even thought that their warranty might not cover use in RVs.  I only used them once on our copper pipes to a new water heater I installed in our house and they're about ten years old now & have never leaked.
Let's see, isn't that joint you repaired fed by the water pump & subject to that extra vibration too?  I wonder if you could dampen it like someone else did using pipe insulation (& maybe some kind of bracing).

Ratkity

ChanW said:

We had a little lesson, and learned something new, a few years after moving into our 1860s farmhouse. The plumbing was not so old (outhouse as recently as the 1960s), but some was the thin wall flexible copper tubing. Cheaper, I think...

So, combined with the low-ph acidic water, the piping had been eaten away from the inside. Nothing on the outside to indicate, until it began to seep. 

We finally found the leak behind the washing machine, after it had rotted the floor!

Before that, I'd thought copper was great. Now I see the point in softener systems, even if hard water is preferred.

I'd bring that pressure down, 'fi were you! 

Ratkity said:

4ncar said:

Ratkity said:

Not like the >100 psi in my house.

😳 yes you do!! I believe that is the max for cpvc piping & fixtures. If you have copper piping and old fashioned plumbing fixtures you may be ok, but....

I have a 1935 circa house that has hard copper plumbing. Even so, it needs a pressure regulator. I'd still have great showers. I'm worried that as plumbing ages (including to the house from the street) the diameter of the inside of the pipes decrease due to mineral build-up. It appears much of the house piping has been fully replaced prior to me moving there - I'd say it's about 20 yrs old.

EEeeep! A rotted floor! That would be my luck. I found some flared copper from the kitchen up to the 2nd floor. The only way it was shut off was that it was crimped over itself. I think there was a sink there 20 years prior. UGH. I could see where the floor was different color upstairs. My Dad and I pulled the copper piping out when I redid the kitchen in the house right after I moved in. What a mess. We had to reinstall cutoffs in the kitchen.

Ok... back to our regularly scheduled leaks!!!!! Scott, any sign of leaks? Is all well?

4ncar

Ratkity said:

4ncar said:

Ratkity said:

Not like the >100 psi in my house.

😳 yes you do!! I believe that is the max for cpvc piping & fixtures. If you have copper piping and old fashioned plumbing fixtures you may be ok, but....

I have a 1935 circa house that has hard copper plumbing. Even so, it needs a pressure regulator. I'd still have great showers. I'm worried that as plumbing ages (including to the house from the street) the diameter of the inside of the pipes decrease due to mineral build-up. It appears much of the house piping has been fully replaced prior to me moving there - I'd say it's about 20 yrs old.

I would be less concerned with calcification restricting pressure then I would be with acidic water thinning the walls and leading to pinhole leaks. My house had all the copper taken out years ago for that very reason. Copper is good only at the fixture end these days... have you had your water tested for ph levels ever? Especially if you are on well water(as I am).

Ratkity

4ncar said:

Ratkity said:

4ncar said:

Ratkity said:

Not like the >100 psi in my house.

😳 yes you do!! I believe that is the max for cpvc piping & fixtures. If you have copper piping and old fashioned plumbing fixtures you may be ok, but....

I have a 1935 circa house that has hard copper plumbing. Even so, it needs a pressure regulator. I'd still have great showers. I'm worried that as plumbing ages (including to the house from the street) the diameter of the inside of the pipes decrease due to mineral build-up. It appears much of the house piping has been fully replaced prior to me moving there - I'd say it's about 20 yrs old.

I would be less concerned with calcification restricting pressure then I would be with acidic water thinning the walls and leading to pinhole leaks. My house had all the copper taken out years ago for that very reason. Copper is good only at the fixture end these days... have you had your water tested for ph levels ever? Especially if you are on well water(as I am).

On city water. Haven't had it tested, but it wouldn't be hard to grab a pH test kit or a a pH test meter from a friend from a lab.

ScottG

@BrianZ and @Ratkity, no leaks on the repair so far and I'm not going to worry about the vibration issue. I'll just continue to inspect everything periodically and repair when and if needed. Considering I've already had leak in a crimped fitting, those certainly aren't 100% foolproof either. However, I've yet to hear of a fitting leak other than my own so I'll just chalk it up to being the unlucky winner in a unlikely game of chance.  ;-)

ChanW

Not heard of a fitting leak...? Well I should tell you then!

Yes, when we first bought our tab, w/in a month or so, I found water stains in the driver's side bench, below the shower wall.

It turned out to be the shower mixer fitting was squeezed between the front and the back of the wall, so was being strained enough to make it leak - drip. It was actually the access cover that was pressing against it, so I was able to put some small spacers in there to give it the room it required. Lucky, it stopped the leak!

There, now you've heard of another fitting leak! 

ScottG

@ChanW, was it the fitting/connection to the PEX tubing itself that was leaking? If so, it sounds like you lucked out with your fix. I'd keep a close eye on it either way--which I strongly suspect you have done.  :-)

Marco

Wow Thats a lot of work! I'm going to get a quote first from dealer. If its too much then I'm ready to cut a big hole behind the toilet seat. Thanks

ScottG

@Marco, despite appearances it was a relatively easy job if you have modest carpentry skills. However, "measure twice, cut once" definitely applies in this case! It was not a project I would trust to a dealer's shop, but YMMV.

In any case, before hacking into anything (or letting someone else do so) I would try to make a definitive ID on the leak. There's a lot of room under the wet bath, cabinets, etc. for water to move around, so even if it is wet back there that may not be the source of the leak.

You mentioned it leaking when you ran the pump. Does it also leak when you are on city water?

There are a few things you should check first, and you can probably reach them through the existing hatch:

• Feel your way down the flexible lines to and from the pump. the both connect into the plumbing system with threaded connectors. Make sure those connectors are tight.
• Employ your best contortioning skills and try to get your hand down behind the city water connection on the outside wall. This is also a threaded connector and it has been known to come loose. It may also need a snugging up.

Good luck and please report back what you find! 

ChanW

@Marco also check behind the fresh water filler fitting on the outside wall of the Tab. You'll again need to contort a bit to reach inside the wall and feel around the fitting for signs of moisture. 

I can't tell what year/model you have, but our (2014) freshwater filler fitting was installed without its vent tube connected. There's a small hole at the top of the filler fitting that goes from the outside of the fitting to the inside of the wall. It's intended to have the vent tube attached inside. The vent tube is missing on ours, so any water that splashed up to that hole while filling the freshwater would go right inside the wall.

If I was using a hose, and not being careful, the inside of the wall would get quite wet.

The vent isn't really necessary, since the overflow acts as a vent, so I simply plugged the hole with some silicone.

ScottG

My FW fill fitting most definately has a vent tube running from the tank to the hole in the fitting. If that tube is blocked (typically when water gets into it) it gets very hard to fill the FW tank. I don't recommend plugging that hole!

Jvangurp

Hey @ScottG I just messaged you seeking this… then did a better search. It’s so very helpful… thanks!!!

ScottG

You are welcome, @Jvangurp. Good luck with your repair!