Cold weather Camping - Some real experience

1968Healey

My wife and I just returned from Banff NP in Alberta Canada, we were up there for a week where the temperatures ranged from ~50 deg highs on one day to a whiteout blizzard to extreme lows overnight (-6 F).  With all the discussion on this forum recently about winterizing, cold weather camping and tank heaters, I figured I’d share our experience.

IMO, you have 3 problems, in general, to deal with.  Inside heat, condensation and freezing lines/tanks/dump gates.  

Starting with the easy one - inside heat.  The Alde system works well on either electric or propane BUT it takes a very long time to heat up the trailer from cold on setup.  I’m talking hours.   One example, we arrived to one camp ground and it was ~45 out. Hooked up to power and running the Alde on 2kW AC it took over 2.5 hours to heat the inside temperature of the trailer up from 45 to 65.

On the plus side, once the trailer gets hot, it seems to stay hot.  During the extreme cold stretch where we hit -6F and 2 days with HIGHS of 20 deg F, the Alde kept the inside of the trailer a balmy 70 deg F.  In this case we found that hotter is better because you’re going to run into condensation issues.

To avoid condensation, you’ll need to do a few things.  Above 25-30 deg F or so you’ll want to vent a side window and the top vent.  Below 25F the air will be dry enough that you really only need to vent the top vent.  On top of that, the outside air will be so cold that any side window venting will result in cold spots on certain walls.

Here’s where condensation, heat and ‘trailer configuration’ will come together.  First off, it’s best to leave the front table/couch area setup as a table.  Setup as a couch, the front Alde vents are blocked and you’ll get extreme cold spots on the inside front walls. This will be exaggerated by the seat cushions. These cushions will act as insulation, and you’ll end up with a super cold wall.  This cold wall will start to sweat and you’ll get lots of condensation on the back side.  At night we got into the habit of pull the cushions off the walls to create a small air gap.

Other spots that will be condensation problems are the top cubbies where your speakers are and above the bathroom cabinets. There’s just no airflow in these pockets so they form localized cold spots and start to sweat. 

The next time we go ‘extreme cold weather camping’, we’re going to add small oscillating fans (tiny USB powered ones) to push air into these corners.  I might also add some vanes behind the cushions to create tiny air pockets.  Airflow is your friend in this case.

Now onto the tanks, valves and water supply lines.

Before the trip we added DC powered tank heaters.  One to the grey tank, one to the fresh for ~35W each.  This was plenty.  I saw somebody post on here they thought 4 were necessary; that’s just not the case.  These tanks aren’t really prone to freezing* as the Alde will be keeping the inside of the trailer nice and hot - which will somewhat leak down.  Even at -6 outside, under our trailer underside was just below freezing.

We did not add any heat to either our cold water supply line or the valves and these ended up being our problems spots.  If I were to redo my prep work, I’d forget about the tank heaters and focus my efforts in these areas.  I think everyone else planning work should take that into consideration.

The first freezing problem we had was our cold water supply line.  This is the blue line behind the drivers side wheel that feeds the water pump.  It’s a 1/2 inch pex line and is the first thing prone to freeze.  I had hoped the tank heaters would keep this warm enough, but that’s only true when using the water.  Overnight this froze.  Thankfully pex can expand/contract a bit.  We put a space heater under the trailer and unfroze this line multiple times.

The second and more concerning freezing problem we had was our grey tank lines.  We ended up wrapping them with kitchen towels and running the space heater on them.  The towels kept the heat in and we successfully dumped on our last day when the outside temps were ~15 deg F.

Overall I was very happy with our first ‘extreme cold weather’ T@B camping.  However, being an engineer, I can’t leave well enough alone. Before our next trip I’m going to insulate the entire basement and come up with a insulated/heated solution for the dump valve area.

My advice for others looking to do this is to focus on airflow inside and the valves/supply line underneath.  That’s going to be your problem.

DougH

Thanks, that must have been beautiful!

Can you share the brand / model DC tank heaters you went with?  I winterize before cold weather camping, but still use the tanks, have solar, and would rather not have to carry so much RV pink stuff.

Once you start the Alde when arriving somewhere, if you have a window and vent open anyway, and you're comfortable with using propane, either running the stove burners for five minutes, or running a Mr. Buddy propane heater gets the inside up to 65F very quickly.

1968Healey

Doug,

I installed Facon 12x18 inch pads (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MT9EUG9) .  They come as a set for 2 and advertise that together then can handle a 50 gallon tank which I think is accurate.  They’re also self regulating to turn off at 65F.

These are DC pads and drew ~5amps total for over 4 days straight (it was seriously cold).  

Here’s what I didn’t like about them and might impact my course going forward.  The WFCO inverter could *barely* keep up with a 5amp DC draw and we actually discharged 10% of our batteries over that course of time.  I think adding more DC heater pads might overload the WFCO.  It (the WFCO) was running the fan nonstop for days.

IMO, a hybrid approach is best.  You want some DC powered pads for boondocking situations (which we did once) and you want some AC powered stuff to avoid killing the WFCO while plugged in.  Heck, Alde heating might be best, but I’d rather avoid touching those lines (still thinking about it).

The trip was incredible.  Between the fresh fallen snow, the wildlife and Canadian Rockies we were planning our trip back on the drive home. 

Tundra57

That was an awesome write up thanks. I never thought about the cold water inlet. I do know I have to do something about the dump valves- probably heating wire.

Thanks a bunch. Specially the condensation and cold spots who knew ? :-).

Sharon_is_SAM

@1968Healey, to heat the cabin faster, you can use electric (2kw) and LPG (5kw) together.  Since the TaB defaults to electric, once you hit your target temperature, the LPG will turn off, but resume once the cabin temp drops a few degrees.  

DougH

@1968Healey : In response to your comment on hefty load heating pads, I went crazy in the too small direction and ordered a few small 5x9" thermostat pads that will likely be closer to 1A, though I couldn't get any details on wattage from an Amazon question. With pads and better under-tank insulation I'm hoping it might be enough to stay unfrozen at least on the waste tanks.  I plan to just connect them through a switch to the solar controller load connection to provide some battery protection.

They were being sold by a generalist overstock seller, so who knows what will show up on my door in December...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07LCPM3CK

(only 3 left as of 10/19/2019)

Tundra57

Snow and Santa lol.

DougH

Headed to hopefully another epic snow season in Colorado in November, so I'll have to just use the pink stuff one more time before Santa delivers the heating pads. 

Loveland pass got a couple inches yesterday (In mid-October!) so fingers crossed there's a foot or more scattered above 7000ft by next month.

jkjenn

I got by without tank heaters but the real cold spot I found was on the passenger side wall. My feet could really feel the cold, there. I kept a vent open most of the time and did not have any issues with condensation for me and Rocky.

Tundra57

Do you have a Tab400 or a 320?

ChanW

We have found that too @jkjenn.

A thick comforter wrapped around the feet seems to be the only answer... 

jkjenn

ChanW said:

We have found that too @jkjenn.

A thick comforter wrapped around the feet seems to be the only answer... 

My four-legged footwarmer generally kicks in after a few minutes and my feet get nice and toasty. 😁

robvasi

I plan to pick up my T@B 320*S next week.  I need to use it all winter in below freezing conditions. There is an RV remodel shop that can do most anything.  I want them to make the modifications.  I don't know how much experience they have with T@B's, guess is, 'not much.' So, I need a list of what the shop should do.  the OP provided a lot of detail in his post, is that sufficient for the shop to do the work?  If so, I will use that post as the list.

Windsocked

ALDE heat insufficient. 

I was wondering if anyone else has found the ALDE to not be quite enough to heat up their TAB.
 I have a 2018 320 S and I have tried setting the circulation pump to 5, then 2 then 1, all with the same disappointing results:
when it’s 30 degrees outside I can’t get it above 59 degrees inside. This is tested with all vents clear and the trailer set up for sleeping on the entire queen bed, unoccupied with windows and their shades closed. Elevation 4500 (in SLC UT, so dry air too). All the glycol tubes running throughout the trailer are hot to the touch. I don’t think it’s a faulty heater, just a bad design. 

Am I doing something wrong? Any suggestions will really help! I’m seriously considering installing an RV furnace at this point but that seems so wasteful. Thanks for listening! 

Verna

@Windsocked, please see the answers on your other post.

Pintoplumber

Last time out we woke up cold in the morning. We had domestic hot water, I could hear the boiler running during the night. In the morning I found the glycol tank low on fluid. Added a bottle of drinking water and it started circulating and getting warm.

dCliffhanger

It's 39 outside here and I just turned on the Alde in prep for a trip tomorrow. I'm on shore power running just 1kw and the T@B temp came up to 72 in the few hours I was out buying supplies.

Amazonica

Hi 1968Healey. Great info, thank you! I am a complete newbie, camping in 6dF right now in Colorado. Terrified to ruin something, so camping “dry” (winterized 400 BD). If you have specific info on how to protect the cold water supply and dump valves, I would be grateful. Heading to south TX, but getting there will take me several days in sub-freezing temps.

gspdx

https://ultraheat.com

Heaters for tanks, waste pipes, gate valves, water lines, with temp sensing controls.  They have one model of tank heater that can use AC and DC.

Will be starting an install soon I think.  Not cheap but if you are going to use you camper in freezing temperatures you will need something.  

We decided to go this route rather than an Alde add on since a) we will probably stay somewhere with hookups during the colder temps, b) even with the Alde add on the waste pipes and gate valves are outside the frame so wouldn't be in the heated area and c) when traveling I don't think you could use the Alde.

It's all about trade-offs.  No perfect solution but you will need to assess your planned usage and determine the solution that best fits your needs.

ChanW

@Amazonica, as long as you're winterized, you need not worry about your cold supply and dump valves.

For winterizing info, do a search here on the forum for 'winterizing'. It's been discussed at length, with lots of specifics.

Have a great trip!

Tundra57

I saw on Amazon they have special DC heater tapes just for the dump valves. I will be fitting those. You just turn them on for 3 mins before you dump. Squirt a little antifreeze into the valves before you close them.

TNOutback

@1968Healey, could you elaborate on your cold water supply line comment?  You are referring to the part below the floor, correct?  I’m not planning on camping in minus 5 degree weather, but I’m wondering if a simple application of insulating pipe wrap on that line would help get one through on a 25 degree night?

TNOutback

We are heading out for a weekend camping trip in the morning, so with the nighttime low here predicted to be 29 tonight, I thought I would turn on the Alde in the camper and test temps in some of the compartments.  I’ve had the Alde set on 60 for a few hours now, and with an outside temperature of 36, it is 61 degrees in the cabin, 67 degrees in the service compartment underneath the closet where the water pump is, and 71 degrees just inside the outside compartment door where you access the Alde and drain lines.  In our previous RVs, we would leave cabinet doors open at night to get heat to them, so this is a very pleasant experience!  I’m loving this Alde system!  It would seem that everything above the floor is going to be fine with the Alde heat on.

To @1968Healey’s point, it’s the below floor stuff to figure out how to protect. (Short of major Alde surgery to pipe in heat, which is another thread.)

Verna

In Southern Arizona where I normally spend my winters, my Inlet water supply has lightly frozen at the brass water pressure regulator about twice each January. I have since started protecting the hose and the water inlet with a covering of Reflectex and the silver tape used in furnace applications. 

So, be sure to not forget the inlet side of the water supply, or better yet, disconnect the hose at night when temps are expected to be in the high 20’s. I think the outside temps last year got down to 28*F and that’s when the water froze in the hose. 

Homebodyatheart

@Verna Mrs @2Cougs and I ran into this last year. Luckily she had a hair dryer we could plug in and then thaw both connections. It’s on my “maybe I might need to carry one just in case” list. 

Verna

@Homebodyatheart, there’s just one problem where I camp.....there’s no electricity!😂. I actually don’t own a hair dryer any more, either😉

Sierra

@Verna, I have used "hot shot" chemical hand warmers before when I had to soften some plastic tubing for a field repair. Worked great and I bet would do the same if you could wrap it around with an insulating layer.. a long sock perhaps? They come is a few sizes.

mergs

Possible tangent but one of the things that keeps us from using the T@B in the winter is the threat of snow and driving conditions. Our TV is 2015 Tacoma and I swap to my winter tires around this time of year, but I am concerned about towing in snowy conditions and of course getting stuck. Any words of encouragement or previous experiences one could share would be appreciated. One of our dreams is to one day slowly snowbird out of the PWN and migrate slowly down to AZ then back to Spokane in the spring.