Additional Solar Capacity

elbolillo
elbolillo Member Posts: 554
edited December 2024 in Battery/Electrical & Solar
I just finished installing another 180w solar panel on our '23 Tab 400. 360w total now on the roof. Removed the smaller 75/10 MPPT and installed a 100/30 MPPT to handle the two 180w panels wired in parallel. Nice to have the controller out from back behind the fridge to a more easily accessible spot. I just need to tidy up and secure the cabling on the roof and we are ready for boondocking adventures.


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Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • dsfdogs
    dsfdogs Member Posts: 640
    @elbolillo Nice work! Can you show a broader picture of where you installed the second panel?
    Thank you!
    Debbie in Oregon
    Sold 2023 Tab 400
    Sold 2018 T@B 320S

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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    @dsfdogs

    Here is a photo of the panel installed on the front. I still need to secure the cabling.


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    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • pthomas745
    pthomas745 Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,532
    And: can you explain how you wired "through the roof?"  I think this is always the hardest issue for owners who want to do something like this.
    2017 Outback
    Towed by 2014 Touareg TDi
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  • boathealer
    boathealer Member Posts: 47
    pthomas745 said:
    And: can you explain how you wired "through the roof?"  I think this is always the hardest issue for owners who want to do something like this.
    Another option - I didn't want *ANY* (more) holes in my roof.  I ran the cables from my two 200W panels up under the trim piece and down forward to the bottom.  It is hollow all the way down. There is an opening at the end and the cables can be run into the underbelly and up through the floor.




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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    pthomas745 said:
    And: can you explain how you wired "through the roof?"  I think this is always the hardest issue for owners who want to do something like this.
    I just used the existing penetration and ran the cables to the branch connectors that will be secured to the roof.


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    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • AnOldUR
    AnOldUR Member Posts: 1,728
    edited December 2024
    @elbolillo What brand flexible panel is that?

    I want to compare it to the 200W BougeRV that @boathealer used.
    Stockton, New Jersey
    2020 nuCamp T@B 320S * Jeep Wrangler
    60,865 camping miles through the end of 2025

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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    @AnOldUR

    It is the same panel that came with the '23 Tab 400: Sunflare Flex 180. I went with this panel because I wanted to match the panels and parallel them on the same MPPT charger.
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    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    Here are a couple of additional photos for reference. I could have run all the wires to the inside of the Tab and then attached them to the branch connectors. However, I decided on this route. I have adhesive mounting brackets to secure all the wires and branch connectors.




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    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • RTWCTS
    RTWCTS Member Posts: 201
    @AnOldUR here are the specs for the Sunflare panel

    Here is the website
    Flex+ / Flex — XPLOR by Sunflare
    2023 TAB 400 (former T@B 320 owners)
    Relentlessly Pursuing a Silverado EV
    'Racing the Wind and Chasing the Sun'
    Virginia Beach, VA
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  • AnOldUR
    AnOldUR Member Posts: 1,728
    edited December 2024
    @RTWCTS Any idea why efficiency and other specs are so much different than the BougeRV (below) for a comparable wattage panel? The Sunflare has a larger footprint, but slightly lower wattage. Also the price difference? Are the Sunflare that much better?


    Stockton, New Jersey
    2020 nuCamp T@B 320S * Jeep Wrangler
    60,865 camping miles through the end of 2025

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  • boathealer
    boathealer Member Posts: 47



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  • CatDaddy
    CatDaddy Member Posts: 130
    elbolillo said:
    Removed the smaller 75/10 MPPT and installed a 100/30 MPPT to handle the two 180w panels wired in parallel.
    Wiring two panels in parallel isn't a good idea. It won't necessarily hurt anything, but it will impact performance very significantly, especially if one panel is shaded and the other is not. 
    A better approach is to use two separate MPPTs. I've been looking for a dual input MPPT for exactly this purpose, but I'm not finding one. The best thing I've found is two MPPTs that will "network" so they can cooperate to charge the battery(ies). 
    Adventure Cats living in the Pacific NW USA
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    2023 Volkswagen ID.4 Pro S Plus AWD
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    CatDaddy said:
    elbolillo said:
    Removed the smaller 75/10 MPPT and installed a 100/30 MPPT to handle the two 180w panels wired in parallel.
    Wiring two panels in parallel isn't a good idea. It won't necessarily hurt anything, but it will impact performance very significantly, especially if one panel is shaded and the other is not. 
    A better approach is to use two separate MPPTs. I've been looking for a dual input MPPT for exactly this purpose, but I'm not finding one. The best thing I've found is two MPPTs that will "network" so they can cooperate to charge the battery(ies). 
    Actually, when wired in series, shading effect the performance.

    Quote from Battleborn's site: "Solar panels in parallel operate independently of one another and therefore are the best option for mixed-light conditions. If shade covers one or two of your panels, the remaining panels in the array will continue to generate power as expected."
    _____________________________________________________
    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    boathealer said:



    I am not sure where you pulled the spec for the Sunflare Xplor but this is directly from their site: 


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    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    RTWCTS said:
    @AnOldUR here are the specs for the Sunflare panel

    Here is the website
    Flex+ / Flex — XPLOR by Sunflare
    Not sure where you pulled the screen shot, but Sunflare's website give much different specs.
    _____________________________________________________
    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    AnOldUR said:
    @RTWCTS Any idea why efficiency and other specs are so much different than the BougeRV (below) for a comparable wattage panel? The Sunflare has a larger footprint, but slightly lower wattage. Also the price difference? Are the Sunflare that much better?


    I could be wrong, but these BougeRV panels do not appear to have bypass diodes to allow the panel to function fully in shade. Their YUMA models do.

    The Sunflare panels do have bypass diodes.
    _____________________________________________________
    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • RTWCTS
    RTWCTS Member Posts: 201
    AnOldUR said:
    @RTWCTS Any idea why efficiency and other specs are so much different than the BougeRV (below) for a comparable wattage panel? The Sunflare has a larger footprint, but slightly lower wattage. Also the price difference? Are the Sunflare that much better?
    I am not that familiar with the BougeRV product @AnOldUR. I would imagine it has to do with how the individual cells are connected in producing the panels.
     When I started reading this discussion, I looked up the specs for the Sunflare panels online (since I have one on the roof of my T@B). For my auxiliary solar needs, I use briefcase panels connected to a second Victron MPPT controller.
    2023 TAB 400 (former T@B 320 owners)
    Relentlessly Pursuing a Silverado EV
    'Racing the Wind and Chasing the Sun'
    Virginia Beach, VA
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  • RTWCTS
    RTWCTS Member Posts: 201
    elbolillo said:
    RTWCTS said:
    @AnOldUR here are the specs for the Sunflare panel

    Here is the website
    Flex+ / Flex — XPLOR by Sunflare
    Not sure where you pulled the screen shot, but Sunflare's website give much different specs.
    @elbolillo I went to Sunflare's website after reading your initial post (the link is posted in my first comment in this discussion). Under the resources tab you can open the "Download The Understanding Solar Guide".
    The data table I posted is from that guide. So, it is from Sunflare.
    2023 TAB 400 (former T@B 320 owners)
    Relentlessly Pursuing a Silverado EV
    'Racing the Wind and Chasing the Sun'
    Virginia Beach, VA
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  • AnOldUR
    AnOldUR Member Posts: 1,728
    edited December 2024
    @RTWCTS I found this on their website:

    Why is it more expensive than other modules per watt?

    Our technology is inherently different from our competitors, and while it is more expensive, our quality and performance make up for the price differences. Bypass diodes make up for increased performance under shaded conditions, and our 3M top sheet is best in class for all-weather protection year-round.


    I'd like to see the Understanding Solar Guide, but get, "Unable to submit your request. Please contact the website administrator." I've emailed them to find out why. Do you know of any trick to get in?

    Stockton, New Jersey
    2020 nuCamp T@B 320S * Jeep Wrangler
    60,865 camping miles through the end of 2025

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  • RTWCTS
    RTWCTS Member Posts: 201
    The .PDF is attached below @AnOldUR . I had downloaded it yesterday...
    2023 TAB 400 (former T@B 320 owners)
    Relentlessly Pursuing a Silverado EV
    'Racing the Wind and Chasing the Sun'
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    Seems like Sunflare is not totally consistent with their specs. Here is the spec sheet for the 180w panel. 
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    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • CatDaddy
    CatDaddy Member Posts: 130
    elbolillo said:
    Actually, when wired in series, shading effect the performance.

    Quote from Battleborn's site: "Solar panels in parallel operate independently of one another and therefore are the best option for mixed-light conditions. If shade covers one or two of your panels, the remaining panels in the array will continue to generate power as expected."

    Full disclosure: I'm an electrical engineer that has designed MPPT systems professionally. I'm telling you the truth. Both series and parallel configurations have issues with shading, but wiring them in parallel more fraught with issues.  There is a reason why commerical PV solar installations are almost 100% series strings. 
    What Battleborn wrote is correct, but your interpretation of it is incomplete. Battleborn did not say that wiring panels in parallel provides the maximum power output. Panels in parallel that are properly configured with blocking diodes don't really "cooperate" that well, meaning that the panel with the highest output voltage will provide almost all of the power and the others aren't doing anything. This is particularly true if they panels are not identical.
    If the goal is to get the maximum power available from all of the panels, then the optimal solution is to have one MPPT per solar panel (aka "module"). 
    If one could find the right hardware, then putting them in series with a good MPPT is the second best in terms of maximizing power output.
    Putting them in parallel requires proper blocking diodes and heavier wire to handle the higher current is third best.
    I have not been able to find any information about how NuCamp wires their systems for having an external portable panel, but from what I can tell, they provide a second MPPT that connects directly to the battery.
    This is my professional advice. You're free to take it or leave it, but I'm not willing to get into a debate about the objective facts.
    Adventure Cats living in the Pacific NW USA
    2022 NuCamp T@B 320S Boondock
    2023 Volkswagen ID.4 Pro S Plus AWD
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  • Marceline
    Marceline Member Posts: 1,748
    CatDaddy said:
    I have not been able to find any information about how NuCamp wires their systems for having an external portable panel, but from what I can tell, they provide a second MPPT that connects directly to the battery.

    AFAIK Pleasant Valley (NuCamp) has only installed controllers in units with solar on the roof. For a while they were installing an SAE port on the sidewall of the front tub, and this SAE port was wired straight to the battery. It was meant for use with a Zamp brand suitcase setup that included its own controller (there was even a "Zamp" sticker next to the port), but of course people have plugged other solar suitcases into it.
    San Francisco Bay Area
    2013 CS-S us@gi
    2015 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner Double Cab
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  • rfuss928
    rfuss928 Member Posts: 1,184
    elbolillo said:
    I just finished installing another 180w solar panel on our '23 Tab 400. 360w total now on the roof. Removed the smaller 75/10 MPPT and installed a 100/30 MPPT to handle the two 180w panels wired in parallel. Nice to have the controller out from back behind the fridge to a more easily accessible spot. I just need to tidy up and secure the cabling on the roof and we are ready for boondocking adventures.


    What is the second MPPT 100/30 for?

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  • CatDaddy
    CatDaddy Member Posts: 130
    Marceline said:
    AFAIK Pleasant Valley (NuCamp) has only installed controllers in units with solar on the roof. For a while they were installing an SAE port on the sidewall of the front tub, and this SAE port was wired straight to the battery. It was meant for use with a Zamp brand suitcase setup that included its own controller (there was even a "Zamp" sticker next to the port), but of course people have plugged other solar suitcases into it.
    That's super helpful, thanks! This supports my thesis that wiring panels in parallel is not optimal.
    I saw a few T&Bs with the solar port on the side of the tub in photos, but I didn't know if there was a controller mounted inside the tub or if they expected the external panel to have it's own controller. Sounds like it was the latter!

    Adventure Cats living in the Pacific NW USA
    2022 NuCamp T@B 320S Boondock
    2023 Volkswagen ID.4 Pro S Plus AWD
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    rfuss928 said:
    elbolillo said:
    I just finished installing another 180w solar panel on our '23 Tab 400. 360w total now on the roof. Removed the smaller 75/10 MPPT and installed a 100/30 MPPT to handle the two 180w panels wired in parallel. Nice to have the controller out from back behind the fridge to a more easily accessible spot. I just need to tidy up and secure the cabling on the roof and we are ready for boondocking adventures.


    What is the second MPPT 100/30 for?

    The second MPPT is for my external panel.
    _____________________________________________________
    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • pthomas745
    pthomas745 Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,532
    edited December 2024
    @CatDaddy some owners mounted controllers inside the trailer (tub, etc) connected it to the wiring of the SAE port, and then ran the cables from the controller to the battery. The cables from the solar panel connected to the port. Others had the solar controller completely separate from the trailer.  That could either be from a "suitcase" panel with the controller mounted on the panel.  The other way is to have a separate controller much closer to the trailer with a short cable to the SAE port.  It was always considered more efficient to have the solar controller close to the battery.
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    CatDaddy said:
    elbolillo said:
    Actually, when wired in series, shading effect the performance.

    Quote from Battleborn's site: "Solar panels in parallel operate independently of one another and therefore are the best option for mixed-light conditions. If shade covers one or two of your panels, the remaining panels in the array will continue to generate power as expected."

    Full disclosure: I'm an electrical engineer that has designed MPPT systems professionally. I'm telling you the truth. Both series and parallel configurations have issues with shading, but wiring them in parallel more fraught with issues.  There is a reason why commerical PV solar installations are almost 100% series strings. 
    What Battleborn wrote is correct, but your interpretation of it is incomplete. Battleborn did not say that wiring panels in parallel provides the maximum power output. Panels in parallel that are properly configured with blocking diodes don't really "cooperate" that well, meaning that the panel with the highest output voltage will provide almost all of the power and the others aren't doing anything. This is particularly true if they panels are not identical.
    If the goal is to get the maximum power available from all of the panels, then the optimal solution is to have one MPPT per solar panel (aka "module"). 
    If one could find the right hardware, then putting them in series with a good MPPT is the second best in terms of maximizing power output.
    Putting them in parallel requires proper blocking diodes and heavier wire to handle the higher current is third best.
    I have not been able to find any information about how NuCamp wires their systems for having an external portable panel, but from what I can tell, they provide a second MPPT that connects directly to the battery.
    This is my professional advice. You're free to take it or leave it, but I'm not willing to get into a debate about the objective facts.
    I won’t debate the objective facts either. FACT: Shading definitely affects panels wired in series more than if wired in parallel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofo1HQyGG8s&t=43s 

    I never said that wiring in parallel would provide maximum output. And let’s not confuse an RV installation on a small camper with a commercial installation of solar panels. My 8kwh solar panel installation on my house is a totally different beast compared to a camper that is meant to travel and inhabit many different types of situations.

    With many things what may be optimal isn’t necessarily black and white. Just because your way would provide maximum output, it doesn’t by any stretch of the imagination mean it is the only correct option.

    I already have two MPPT controllers in a small trailer and really didn’t want to install another. Series wiring runs are definitely more efficient, however, although I have wired in parallel, my runs are fairly short and loss should be minimal. And my panels are identical.

    I certainly am not adverse to different ideas and opinions, but most things require some semblance of compromise dependant on the particular use scenarios. If you really wanted a camper that provided optimal output, you wouldn’t be using 12v. However, running 24v or 48v would require a totally different setup. 



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    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • CatDaddy
    CatDaddy Member Posts: 130
    I won’t debate the objective facts either. FACT: Shading definitely affects panels wired in series more than if wired in parallel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofo1HQyGG8s&t=43s 
    I can provide SPICE simulations that refute your "facts" if you're interested. Otherwise, you do you.

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    2023 Volkswagen ID.4 Pro S Plus AWD
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 554
    CatDaddy said:
    I won’t debate the objective facts either. FACT: Shading definitely affects panels wired in series more than if wired in parallel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofo1HQyGG8s&t=43s 
    I can provide SPICE simulations that refute your "facts" if you're interested. Otherwise, you do you.

    The real world is great for me, thanks.
    _____________________________________________________
    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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