Battery Trials and Tribulations

2

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  • rfuss928
    rfuss928 Member Posts: 1,181
    The Victron LiFePO4 chargers mentioned cost more than a WFCO 8735 converter and are lower charger output.  The converter manages the entire electrical system of the trailer as well as battery charging.  IMO - A much better value and a completely integrated system in the trailer.  I would change the converter.

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  • pthomas745
    pthomas745 Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,528
    Hundreds of dollars of work for 15 amps does not seem cost effective for a 100 amp hour battery.  My 60 dollar solar controller handles my lithium batteries just fine.
    2017 Outback
    Towed by 2014 Touareg TDi
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  • SLJ
    SLJ Member Posts: 644
    rfuss928 said:
    The Victron LiFePO4 chargers mentioned cost more than a WFCO 8735 converter and are lower charger output.  The converter manages the entire electrical system of the trailer as well as battery charging.  IMO - A much better value and a completely integrated system in the trailer.  I would change the converter.

    No thanks.
    WFCO 8735 $172.55
    Victron 20A Smart Charger $170.85, 30A $182.75

    WFCOs have had problems auto detecting Lithium batteries to the point where many have needed to be pulled out and sent back to the factory or modified by the user. Don't think for one minute they will charge a lithium battery at 30 amps.
    The Victron smart chargers will also network with the Victron solar controllers and connect to your smart phone and can be shut down automatically by a Victron battery monitor if the temp drops below a users low temp set point.  As a backup if your WFCO craps out and won't supply DC, the Victron will also supply the camper with DC and still charge the batteries just by plugging it in to shore power.
    Why I chose just adding a smart charger over replacing the WFCO with a problematic one.
    2021 T@B 320 S Boondock
    2025 KZ Sportsmen 130RD
    2025 Ford Ranger
    The Finger Lakes of New York
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  • Marceline
    Marceline Member Posts: 1,747
    Mellow_Yellow said:
    @Sharon_is_SAM. I am pretty frugal especially during winter “dry” camping. I don’t have a way of measuring daily usage. 
    I think that in view of all of your "Trials and Tribulations" you really should install a Victron SmartShunt. It is super easy to install and it will give you an accurate picture of your battery's state of charge (as long as you set it up properly). What you're doing right now is kind of like going on a long road trip without a functioning gas gauge. 
    San Francisco Bay Area
    2013 CS-S us@gi
    2015 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner Double Cab
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  • rfuss928
    rfuss928 Member Posts: 1,181
    edited November 2024
    SLJ said:
    Don't think for one minute they will charge a lithium battery at 30 amps.
    My WFCO regularly charges at 35 amps as soon as connected to shore power.  If the batteries are fully charged, it will quickly taper to float voltage otherwise maintains that 35 amp level until batteries approach full charge.
    It takes one to two hours to remove and reinstall the 8735. The most difficult aspect is manipulating the AC breakers' stiff wiring.  Pretty straight forward one for one exchange of about a dozen wires.

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  • Cherokee
    Cherokee Member Posts: 346
    edited November 2024
    Mellow_Yellow said:
    @Sharon_is_SAM. I am pretty frugal especially during winter “dry” camping. I don’t have a way of measuring daily usage. 
    If you do go with to 6v batteries, NuCamp's "guess/maybe" lights will be as accurate as they were before. An inexpensive VOM could measure the drop in voltage which determines the state of charge - just open the lid and touch the leads to the battery poles - That's frugal. One of the main advantages of Lithium batteries is that they produce the same voltage as they are depleted - so a VOM or NuCamp's lights will be of no use. However, one can deplete their charge almost completely; while AGM's drop below usable voltage as they are depleted and shouldn't be depleted  below around 50%. The price of AGM's are rising while the price of Lithium is dropping.    



    TV:2019 Nissan Frontier PRO-4X With an Old Man Emu lift
    Trailer: 2019 T@B 320 Boondock with a Lock&Roll Coupler & Jack-e-up
    Custom fabricated metal bottom cladding
    California, USA
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  • Cherokee
    Cherokee Member Posts: 346
    Sharon_is_SAM said:
    @Mellow_Yellow - we tow with a 2015 Sienna as well.  We will be replacing our AGM battery with lithium come spring.  We need more reliable battery life while boondocking as well. 

     To me, it sounds like you can use an easy fix.  Instead of changing converters, just install a 200 A battery in the tub and buy a lithium compatible battery charger to use at home to recharge after camping.  Follow the battery manufacturer recommendation regarding charging current.  Charging time depends on degree of battery depletion and the current of the charger.  The lower the current, the slower the charge.  You first need to measure the room in your tub to see what fits.

    This is a GREAT solution with the switch that someone else suggested! I'd be tempted if I didn't have a fine solar panel and abundant California sunshine  
    TV:2019 Nissan Frontier PRO-4X With an Old Man Emu lift
    Trailer: 2019 T@B 320 Boondock with a Lock&Roll Coupler & Jack-e-up
    Custom fabricated metal bottom cladding
    California, USA
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  • Mellow_Yellow
    Mellow_Yellow Member Posts: 354
    Update: I now have 2 x 6V AGM batteries connected in series in a new battery box.
    https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B07V4482W1?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
    This box fits snugly between the battery box and the trailer’s crank pillar. The only mod needed was a small notch to provide clearance for the brake line. NOTE: this is a 2014 BAL trailer chassis with surge brakes.
    I have gone from 89 amp hours to 450 amp hours. Woo hoo!  I’m doing some driveway testing running the Alde on propane now. With my low-passive drain setup, I should have about 4 days of power. I’m using this battery monitor, which is 6V and AGM compatible: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B0CXP8RRNR?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

    2014 T@B 320 S "Sunny" - 2015 Toyota Sienna LE - British Columbia, Canada
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  • Marceline
    Marceline Member Posts: 1,747
    Mellow_Yellow said:
    Update: I now have 2 x 6V AGM batteries connected in series in a new battery box.
    https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B07V4482W1?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
    This box fits snugly between the battery box and the trailer’s crank pillar. The only mod needed was a small notch to provide clearance for the brake line. NOTE: this is a 2014 BAL trailer chassis with surge brakes.
    I have gone from 89 amp hours to 450 amp hours. Woo hoo!  I’m doing some driveway testing running the Alde on propane now. With my low-passive drain setup, I should have about 4 days of power. I’m using this battery monitor, which is 6V and AGM compatible: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B0CXP8RRNR?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

    Just be aware that this is a pretty hefty amount of additional weight on the tongue. 
    San Francisco Bay Area
    2013 CS-S us@gi
    2015 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner Double Cab
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  • Sharon_is_SAM
    Sharon_is_SAM Member Posts: 10,061
    450 AHrs?  What is the capacity of a single battery?
    Sharon / 2017 T@B CSS / 2015 Toyota Sienna Minivan / Westlake, Ohio
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  • Sharon_is_SAM
    Sharon_is_SAM Member Posts: 10,061
    So, 112 usable ah.
    Sharon / 2017 T@B CSS / 2015 Toyota Sienna Minivan / Westlake, Ohio
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  • AnOldUR
    AnOldUR Member Posts: 1,726
    edited December 2024
    Mellow_Yellow said:
    I have gone from 89 amp hours to 450 amp hours. Woo hoo! 
    It's more like "very nice mod" than a "Woo hoo" moment, but an improvement for sure. ;)

    But I'd be more concerned with what @Marceline said. That's going on 200lbs placed further forward on the tongue than your old installment. Have you compared your new tongue weight to what it was originally?

    Stockton, New Jersey
    2020 nuCamp T@B 320S * Jeep Wrangler
    60,865 camping miles through the end of 2025

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  • Mellow_Yellow
    Mellow_Yellow Member Posts: 354
    thanks for all the input here. My questions and responses are:
    1. These are 2 x 6V AGM batteries @ 225 ah each, connected in series. Why doesn’t that give me 450 ah, which I can use up to 70% capacity?
    2. I removed the old 12v battery, so technically, I’m only adding 80 additional pounds with the second battery. Also, my 2014 T@B has tiny tanks - only 5 Gallons fresh water, so that should give me a bit of leeway?
    3. The new battery box is 10 inches further forward on the tongue than the old battery box. Is that a crucial difference?
    4. it is a “woo-hoo” moment if you camp off-grid year round in a dense boreal forest as I do. 89 ah only lasted me 1.5 days with every inch of passive/active drain reduced as much as possible. I was even using rechargeable lights instead of the built in lights and had the radio switched off. 
    2014 T@B 320 S "Sunny" - 2015 Toyota Sienna LE - British Columbia, Canada
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  • Mellow_Yellow
    Mellow_Yellow Member Posts: 354
    I answered question #1: the voltage gets added (2x6V = 12 V) but not the amperage. Still, I’d rather have 225ah than 89 ah. Sadly, I was misinformed on this aspect. 
    2014 T@B 320 S "Sunny" - 2015 Toyota Sienna LE - British Columbia, Canada
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 549
    Mellow_Yellow said:
    thanks for all the input here. My questions and responses are:
    1. These are 2 x 6V AGM batteries @ 225 ah each, connected in series. Why doesn’t that give me 450 ah, which I can use up to 70% capacity?
    2. I removed the old 12v battery, so technically, I’m only adding 80 additional pounds with the second battery. Also, my 2014 T@B has tiny tanks - only 5 Gallons fresh water, so that should give me a bit of leeway?
    3. The new battery box is 10 inches further forward on the tongue than the old battery box. Is that a crucial difference?
    4. it is a “woo-hoo” moment if you camp off-grid year round in a dense boreal forest as I do. 89 ah only lasted me 1.5 days with every inch of passive/active drain reduced as much as possible. I was even using rechargeable lights instead of the built in lights and had the radio switched off. 
    When you wire batteries in series you increase the voltage. 6x2=12. But the capacity stays the same 225ah. So you only have about 157ah usable capacity max. 
    _____________________________________________________
    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • Grumpy_G
    Grumpy_G Member Posts: 711
    Regarding 2+3, putting an additional 80 lbs on the tongue and moving the batteries and their associated weight forward does increase the tongue weight quite a bit. You'll have to weigh it to know exactly what the new tongue weight is. With a full-size truck it won't make a difference but the Sienna is only rated for 385 lbs on the tongue (if my Google-fu is correct). 
    Unfortunately you gave up on LiFePo which amongst other benefits is much lighter, less than 50 lbs for a 12V 230Ah battery. 
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  • AnOldUR
    AnOldUR Member Posts: 1,726
    Mellow_Yellow said:
    1. These are 2 x 6V AGM batteries @ 225 ah each, connected in series. Why doesn’t that give me 450 ah, which I can use up to 70% capacity?
    Sorry for deleting my previous posts, but here's the math for anyone questioning this ...

    watts = volts x amps
    225 amps x 6 volts = 1350 watts
    1350 watts x 2 (batteries) = 2700 watts
    2700 watts / 12 volts = 225 amps

    Stockton, New Jersey
    2020 nuCamp T@B 320S * Jeep Wrangler
    60,865 camping miles through the end of 2025

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  • Horigan
    Horigan Member Posts: 863
    edited December 2024
    AnOldUR said:
    Mellow_Yellow said:
    1. These are 2 x 6V AGM batteries @ 225 ah each, connected in series. Why doesn’t that give me 450 ah, which I can use up to 70% capacity?
    Sorry for deleting my previous posts, but here's the math for anyone questioning this ...

    watts = volts x amps
    225 amps x 6 volts = 1350 watts
    1350 watts x 2 (batteries) = 2700 watts
    2700 watts / 12 volts = 225 amps

    Be careful not to confuse amps (current flow) with amp-hours (battery capacity, ah) which is what the @Mellow_Yellow was referring to.  Some of our battery cables couldn't handle 225 amps...
    Rich
    2019 T@b 400
    2025 Toyota Highlander 2.4L Turbo
    Bellingham WA
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  • AnOldUR
    AnOldUR Member Posts: 1,726
    edited December 2024
    Horigan said:
    Be careful not to confuse amps (current flow) with amp-hours (battery capacity, ah) which is what the @Mellow_Yellow was referring to.  Some of our battery cables couldn't handle 225 amps...
    Totally agree, but I'm pretty sure that the relationship between watts, volts and amps works whether it's amps or amp hours? Just using it to explain why the you don't get double the amp hours with two six volt batteries in series.

    It's a formula that's stuck in my head when most things have not. :open_mouth:

    Stockton, New Jersey
    2020 nuCamp T@B 320S * Jeep Wrangler
    60,865 camping miles through the end of 2025

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  • Horigan
    Horigan Member Posts: 863
    edited December 2024
    Agreed.  Your formulas are correct and are burned in my brain too.  The discussion does highlight that amp-hours should be given at a specific voltage.  The 6V battery has 235 aH, at 6V.  Putting two in series gives you 235 aH, at 12V.  Putting two in parallel gives you 470 aH, at 6V.

    Maybe a better way is to use watt hours, like our energy bills are measured.  That would include the voltage and be a measure of power available over time...
    Rich
    2019 T@b 400
    2025 Toyota Highlander 2.4L Turbo
    Bellingham WA
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  • Mellow_Yellow
    Mellow_Yellow Member Posts: 354
    edited December 2024
    Grumpy_G said:
    Unfortunately you gave up on LiFePo which amongst other benefits is much lighter, less than 50 lbs for a 12V 230Ah battery. 
    It was a tale of woe - the lithium was not charging under tow and during a longer trip, I arrived at my 2nd campsite with a de-charged battery just as a major storm hit. 
    When I first got the T@B there was an error in the installation of the towing harness. I had a 7-pin plug with only 4-pin wiring and I didn’t notice because my T@B has surge brakes, not electronic brakes. I mistakenly thought it was a problem with the lithium battery. 
    I’m not 100% happy with the new battery setup because I agree a larger group 24 lithium would have been a better choice and the tongue weight is not ideal. I had the work done at a T@B dealer and they did not inform me of any concerns. 
    I didn’t realize I was only getting 225 ah with the 6V batteries. Maybe this post will save others from learning this same lesson the hard way.
    thanks everyone for your input. 
    2014 T@B 320 S "Sunny" - 2015 Toyota Sienna LE - British Columbia, Canada
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  • AnOldUR
    AnOldUR Member Posts: 1,726
    edited December 2024
    I wouldn't feel too bad @Mellow_Yellow. This technology is impossible to keep up with. When you do switch to lithium you'll find even better options and prices than you would have if you'd done it at the time of your latest battery purchase.

    A while back, when lithium prices were still high, I went with two 12V 125Ah AGM's in parallel. It wasn't long before lithium prices started to drop, so I switch to two 100Ah LiFePO4 batteries. It's now coming up on two year and I'm finding that I'm again behind the curve. The new single high amp hour lithium batteries with Bluetooth are a big improvement over what I thought was cutting edge. Can't wait to see what comes next!
    Stockton, New Jersey
    2020 nuCamp T@B 320S * Jeep Wrangler
    60,865 camping miles through the end of 2025

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  • californication
    californication Member Posts: 46
    @AnOldUR are you saying 2x 100Ah which I bought 2 months ago is already obsolete?! :)

    To be fair, I bought 2x100 24group to place them in front, the same location as the single lead-acid one. I didn't consider going up with 27group or even larger. Now, after changing batteries location from a tongue to an inside of the Tab, I think I could get by with a bigger battery, like 27 group 230Ah, without any hassle.

    @Mellow_Yellow it's a process, which takes a bit of time.

    Tab 320s Boondock 2022 | Jeep JKU 2017
    Mods: MaxxAir 7500S | 2x 100Ah LiFePo4 | Victron Orion-TR DC/DC | Victron MPPT 75/15 | Ultimate Trailer Jack
    2024: 7,949 miles; 76 days; OR, CA, NV, UT
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  • pthomas745
    pthomas745 Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,528
    @californication Maybe not "obsolete"...but the way the prices are going down, there may be a little "buyer's remorse".  I bought a 50 amp hour "Redodo" battery in Oct '23 for about 150 dollars.  (Well reviewed by Will Prowse).
    Today, I can purchase a 100 amp hour lithium, a "WattCycle" for about...150 dollars.  (Well reviewed by Will Prowse!)
    My bare bones LiTime 100 amp hour lithium from September '21 cost 400 dollars.  The changes in features and prices in the lithium battery space has been rather amazing to watch.
    2017 Outback
    Towed by 2014 Touareg TDi
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  • elbolillo
    elbolillo Member Posts: 549
    As LiFePo4 batteries continue to be adopted it will only be easier to make the switch, even for those that don't rely as heavily on battery power. The addition of built-in bluetooth monitoring is also a nice feature and will allow for installs without shunts and this should also make the batteries even more accessible.

    As with any newer technology, there are always those that spread inaccurate information and scare away some from exploring it. There are so many good resources, like Will Prowse, and other RV and Van installers, that have made it even easier to make the "jump" to LiFePo4.

    My experience with LiFePo4 batteries with our Tabs have been nothing but positive and have fit our style of camping perfectly. Even with advances in the technology, we have a setup that should serve us for many, many years!
    _____________________________________________________
    Ken / 2023 Tab 400 “La Bolita” (31,000+ miles) / 2024 Toyota Sequoia
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  • AnOldUR
    AnOldUR Member Posts: 1,726
    elbolillo said:
    Even with advances in the technology, we have a setup that should serve us for many, many years!

    Well, maybe many years, but many, many?  ;)
    Stockton, New Jersey
    2020 nuCamp T@B 320S * Jeep Wrangler
    60,865 camping miles through the end of 2025

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  • californication
    californication Member Posts: 46
    Many, many, many... I meant "Money, money, money" ;)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETxmCCsMoD0

    Tab 320s Boondock 2022 | Jeep JKU 2017
    Mods: MaxxAir 7500S | 2x 100Ah LiFePo4 | Victron Orion-TR DC/DC | Victron MPPT 75/15 | Ultimate Trailer Jack
    2024: 7,949 miles; 76 days; OR, CA, NV, UT
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  • Slackers
    Slackers Member Posts: 491
    I think chasing technology is like trying to keep up with the latest fashion trends. 
    2019 Tab 320 CSS, 2019 Ranger TV, OH
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  • AnOldUR
    AnOldUR Member Posts: 1,726
    edited December 2024
    Yeah, but ... old guy who's been jeans and t-shirts since teens. Don't always take the leap, but new tech will get my attention.
    Stockton, New Jersey
    2020 nuCamp T@B 320S * Jeep Wrangler
    60,865 camping miles through the end of 2025

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