Lithium battery in 400

Michael49

Planning on upgrading to either one or two Battleborn lithium batteries (100 - 200 Ah). I've heard that the solar charge controller in the 400 (ours is 2018 and has a "Rohs" brand controller) won't fully charge lithium batteries in the 400. Is this true? Should I invest in a new charge controller, such as a Victron?

N7SHG_Ham

Those 2018 controllers were generic (it isn't a RoHS, that stands for "Restriction of Hazardous Substances" meaning it doesn't have hazardous materials, primarily lead based solder).

The Victron charge controller can be set to whatever battery chemistry you have and in general I believe is a much better controller.

You also probably at least want to consider a converter or charger that is good for LiFePo4 too.

Dutch061

So, I made the leap and installed 2 x Battleborn Lithium's in our 2020 TAB 400 BDL. On the 2020 model year, in order to get 2 of them stuffed in the area where the 2 x Harris 6 Volts lived, you have to cut the lifting tab off one end of each battery or they are 1/2" too long overall to fit. I knew this going in, but it still made me feel bad cutting these tabs off of the batteries. There is a aluminum angle iron that is fastened to the floor to hold the Harris batteries in place that needs to be removed. Plus you need to trim the vent tube that is sticking up. I  also added an additional piece of wood to fill the area that doesn't have the 1/2" birch floor installed to properly support the batteries. I ran the new cables through the existing vent hose that goes to the side of the camper since the Lithium batteries do not need venting. Maybe in the future I will pull the refrigerator out and remove the hose all together and possibly add a cooling fan to help remove the warm air for the refrigerator (I have the smaller 12 volt compressor refrigerator). 

Anyway, beyond that I also made and installed 2/0 Gauge cabling between the 2 batteries and also to the main power junction block. Touched up the settings in the Solar Charge Controller and the BMV-712 battery monitor and I believe I am good to go. If I really decide to feel I am up for a challenge, I will move the gauge for the BMV-712 that is installed under the bed (I use the Bluetooth app on my phone) over by the Alde and AC controls. It's just a pain to remove the microwave and other stuff to get it done.

Anyway, here is a photo below to show the end result before putting the bed back on top of them. 

johnfconway

Dutch061 said:

So, I made the leap and installed 2 x Battleborn Lithium's in our 2020 TAB 400 BDL.

Really nice installation, Brad! 

Also is helpful (when AGMs poop out) to have had someone not afraid to do some customization to make them fit.

dsfdogs

Another possible option is to go with the 6-volt SHAPED BattleBorn's. They are 12volt but have the smaller footprint and are taller like the 6 volt shape. I had to do that to fit into the 320 tub.

Dutch061

@dsfdogs, absolutely! I looked at the GC2 configuration but I wasn't willing to spend the additional money. BB gave me a few dollars off their already sale price posted on their website. Plus my thoughts were that if these fit on the snug side, that there would be less movement. BB cases are some extremely tough stuff, and I think that even if they were to move around some it would still take years to develop an issue. 

Brad

TNOutback

@Dutch061 Brad, did you swap out the charger/converter for one that handles Li batteries?  Looks like a great install, and i will be doing that when my AGMs are worn out.  I would also love to vent the 12V refrigerator to the outside, and that battery vent would seem to be a good candidate for that once you’ve swapped out batteries.  Still, I have no idea if that refrigerator is designed for external venting.  That warm air exhaust into the cabin is helpful in the winter, but unwanted any other time!

Dutch061

@TNOutback, I had replaced the factory WFCO converter with a PD9620CV and relocated it under the bed within 12 inches of the power junction block previous to the BB upgrade. This was done to address the extremely long battery charge times with the WFCO due to several factors that prevent it from ever using the Bulk Mode. The main goal with the PD9260CV was to reduce the amount of time I needed to run a generator to get the batteries charged back up. It also has a pendant that can be used to force the Bulk Mode (14.4 volts) which allows this to work for Lithium batteries, although I have to press  a button to activate it. Since we have factory solar and boondock mostly, this should be fine since to use the generator I have to put the EMS switch in the bypass mode anyway. I would rather teach my wife to move a switch rather than try to explain "bonded grounds" to her. 

So, after I finished the installation and wring yesterday, I activated the Bulk Charging mode and my initial charge rate was 45 amps as per the BMV-712, voltage started around 13.5. Within 20 minutes the charge rate was nearly zero and the voltage was 14.4 indicating a full charge on the batteries. In the picture below you can see the PD9260CV and my shunt both. 

Brad



I put the pendant so it was accessible from the outside rear compartment next to the display for the EMS-HW30C display as shown in the second picture.

TNOutback

@Dutch061 That looks great, Brad.  I do recall now your earlier posts about moving the charger.  I’m waiting on delivery of a marine-style on board charger I got on the cheap to wire directly to the batteries for the same reason you installed that new charger in the rear compartment.  My last attempt to recharge the batteries on a generator via the shore power outlet was a miserable failure.  I will mount the charger in the rear compartment with some permanent leads to the batteries, and have the plug end ready to fish through the Alde access door when needed.  At least will get a few more amps into the batteries until I can do what you did there with the PD unit.

Remind me, wiring the PD unit there, is that not ahead of the battery cutoff switch?

Dutch061

Yes, it is ahead of the cutoff switch but that causes no issues. In fact it could be considered a bonus in the fact that you always have the ability to charge the batteries regardless of switch position. IE you turned the switch off but accidently left the inverter turned on, you are covered.

The PD was like $200.00 from Amazon with a remote pendant which is definitely the "preferred installation" to allow the "forced boost mode" which also allows this to work with Lithium. 

You are correct, trying to charge the batteries with the WFCO in the location it is doesn't work well at all. This is not due to the WFCO not being capable, but more related to resistance in cables and wiring which causes the WFCO to bypass the Bulk Mode. @rh5555 detailed this very well previously, actually he done all of the time consuming work that allowed me the easy part of just installing the PD and short cables and removing the WFCO. 

Brad

TNOutback

@Dutch061 Brad, is your negative from the charger going into the downstream side of your BMV shunt, or to the upstream terminal block? if at the main terminal block, can the BMV read incoming amps from the charger?

Dutch061

@TNOutback, my converter is connected directly to the Battery Junction Terminal Block. Previous to the converter upgrade, when I installed the shunt, I mounted it just forward of the Junction Block because I didn't want to remove the top of the the bed. I moved the factory negative cable from the Junction Block to the shunt and then installed a short 4 gauge cable from the hunt back to the Junction Block. 

So, when I installed the new converter and made the connections to the Junction Block, by default (accident), I actually had it correct so that I could see the improvement in charge rates since I could measure the amperage going into the batteries.

In the picture attached, I circled (poorly using a mouse) the factory installed cable that I moved from the Junction Block to the shunt.  

Brad

TNOutback

Thanks for that explanation @Dutch061.  I have my BMV shunt between the battery and that that termination block.  Now that I’ve got my head screwed on correctly, I should be good to wire a temporary portable battery charger to the terminal block, which would allow my BMV to pick up the charge readings.  I will mount the charger to the side wall on the Alde side, which I can then access the AC plug through the Alde service door.

Dutch061

@TNOutback, absolutely! That should work great!

It's important to point out to others that are looking to upgrade their converter and have a BMV-712 that "it's not imperative that the current passes through the shunt unless you wish to see the improvement by being able to measure the Amps while charging" . The BMV-712 doesn't use the current passing through to reset the SOC (state of charge) back to 100%.

Here is a screenshot when I was at 94% and pressed the pendant to activate the "Boost Mode" which charges at 14.4 volts. You can see that it was pushing 55.8 amps into the batteries, it would have been higher but I had both vent fans running inside. At this rate, they can be nearly dead (180 to 190 amps drawn out) and it will charge to 100% in just over 3 hours. 

Brad

johnfconway

@Dutch061 quick question that will save me from opening bed up before storage area gets freed up. Is a 3/8" diameter ring connector size needed to fit the Battery Junction Terminal Block post?  Thanks!

Dutch061

John,

They are 3/8" and the batteries are 5/16". I bought 5/16" and drilled the 2 out for the 3/8" connection rather than buying a bag of each. 2/0 cable is expensive and so are the ends!

Brad

TNOutback

A relaxing and yet frustrating camping week has me motivated to make some changes to the electrical system.  Most of the week was cloudy and rainy, so I didn’t get much help from the rooftop solar.  We kept everything off except the two-way refrigerator on 12V and occasional use of the water pump.  The stock Harris AGM batteries don’t seem to have the advertised capacity; within 24 hours I was down to 73% SOC per the BMV.  Adding to that frustration was the ability to recharge via the stock converter/charger.  It looks like if my batteries are below 80% SOC, the charger will put in about 5-7 amps at most via a generator. Once it gets up to 80% or so, the amps drop down to 2.5 net going in.  That would be net of the refrigerator load, but still way too low to recover the batteries over a reasonable time while boondocking.  To top it off, my Wen generator did not like running at 4500 ft elevation; it was running like it smoked 2 packs a day.

@Dutch061 you are about to cost me some $$$

Dutch061

@TNOutback, I also went to a SP in NC last Sunday for 3 days and chose the absolute worst campsite in the park. Little to no shade and no trees behind me to hang a hammock. However, with that being said on Monday afternoon I hooked up the generator mainly to cool off as it was HOT. I believe I was at 80% SOC +/- and as soon as I pressed the button for Boost I was pushing 58 Amps into the batteries. Needless to say in about an hour I was back to 100% SOC but let the generator run for another 2 hours or so because I was enjoying the cooler air!

What I have found with 2 x Battleborn Lithium is that I still use way too many Ah, 50 to 60 per 24 hours. This is due to running 2 vent fans (I have a fantastic fan in the bathroom also) and the higher temps inside the camper forcing the refrigerator to run way more often. I believe that as the weather cools this fall that this will be much lower. The great news is that the Battleborn Lithium batteries are up to the task. I purposely really drew then down the last 2 days using 147 Amps before leaving for home, the voltage was still over 13 which is another great advantage of Lithium batteries, especially if you are going to use the inverter. Had I tried to use the inverter on the AGM after drawing 75% of the available Ah, I would have immediately gotten a low voltage alarm and the inverter would shut off. 2 1/2 hours after I plugged in at home they were at 100% SOC again.

So, although it has been an expensive ordeal, I am very satisfied with the end results.

If you are looking to only fix the charging aspect, that can be done easily for about $275.00. It takes about an hour to do this fix. 

I spent another $2200.00 on 2 batteries, cable, terminals, and the tool to crimp them on the cables. I guess the good news is since this is our last RV, I hope to be able to use it for the next 10 years and shouldn't have to touch any of this stuff again.

Brad

TNOutback

I noticed the BBs are listed as being “on sale” for $899 each.  Lion Energy’s 105 Ah batts are $999, but it seems there may be some coupons floating around for 10-15% off.

Dutch061

I would suggest that anyone looking to make a change to reach out to Battleborn for a quote and to ask those questions that you may have but are possibly embarrassed to ask on a forum. They gave me a price a few dollars below the listed sale price and a few days ago had a "blem sale" that was a terrific price. 

I chose Battleborn for 2 main reasons.

10 year warranty
Made in the greatest country in the world, the USA

In addition they (Battleborn) has done more testing and have people in house who know the answers to ANY questions you may have about upgrading. They are the benchmark that all other Lithium Battery Manufacturers  or Dealers are trying to meet. At least if I were going to bring a battery to market, my goal would be to build a team and a product that would compare. 

No, I have not been compensated to promote their products or have they asked me to. There are plenty of other testimonials regarding their products. 

Brad

Dona

I have a 2019 Tab 400, no solar.  We just bought 2 lithium batteries from CostCo (Lion brand) to swap out our 2 AGMs.  I'm new to learning about batteries and converters, and my question is about the converter.  Several people note that I can keep the stock converter, but the batteries will only be charged to about 80%, and some say that's no big deal if you don't mind just charging to 80%.  Does anyone out there have a non-solar Tab with lithium and the stock converter, or does everyone upgrade their converter?  I'm not opposed to upgrading it, but if I don't have to, then I'd like to see how it works to boondock with the stock converter for this summer.  I do have a 2200 Honda generator, and will that get me up to 100% while camping?  Thanks a lot!

Denny16

Go for it, no need to upgrade converter right off.  A better investment might be a couple of 100 watt solar panels and a Victron MPPT 75/15 solar controller.  Also a Victron Smar Shunt to monitor the battery whilst Boondocking is a good idea.  It shows not only your battery voltage but, it also the load on the batteries and how long they will last at that load.  No surprises.
 Cheers 

Dutch061

If the batteries do not reach a 100% State of Charge at least occasionally, they may never balance the cells. This can shorten the life of the batteries.

In order for the cells in the batteries to balance, they need to reach a 100% State of Charge. Again, I can only speak to Battleborn with this statement. 

The cost of the converter is minimal compared to the 2 batteries you have already purchased. In fact, it would cost way less to upgrade the converter than buying Solar Panels and a charge controller. But again, it depends on how you camp.

Brad

JeffroNC

I replaced the converter stage in our Tab with a Progressive Dynamics unit. Be sure to read the description of the replacement converter stage so you get one that is Lithium ready with a switch to change the charging profile.

Denny16

The Solar setup will also 100% charge a lithium battery to balance the cells.  This is how solar based systems were designed to do when used with lithium batteries.
 Cheers 

Dona

I wish our Tab had rooftop solar.  As for adding solar, we're a bit daunted at the thought of suitcase panels and having more stuff to haul/load/unload from the truck.  I think upgrading the converter is a good idea, and from what I've read, we'd need to change the wiring, too, yes?  At this point we're way over our heads and we'll hire someone to do all this, plus add a Victron Smart Shunt.  My question:  can any RV place do this, or do they need to know about the specs of Tab 400s?  We bought our used Tab from a local RV lot that had never heard of NuCamp, and the closest dealer is 5 hours away.  Thanks so much everyone...  your info is very helpful and appreciated.

pthomas745

Solar is easier than you think.  There is no real need to upgrade the converter.  The lithium can be charged with an inexpensive smart battery charger, or with the solar setup. (Your 400 may need some way to easily get to the battery with a smart charger.)  A solar panel of any type is just a flat platform, a "suitcase" would be much like a folding card table, just a little heavier.  There are many new designs that are even lighter and smaller, ie the "Ecoworthy" type.  So, don't let the solar over awe you. 

Do you have the 'Solar port"  on the side of your trailer?  (SAE port?).

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=ecoworthy+120w&crid=3L02HACRC698J&sprefix=ecoworthy,aps,142&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_7_9

Denny16

Any good RV repair facility that has experience with lithium systems can do this.
They can also install a SAE connection to your battery for a solar suitcase setup.
You just need to show them where the battery is under the bed.  The WaCo converter is used on a lot of different RVs
 Cheers 

Dona

We don’t have an SAE port.  Thanks for the encouragement and info about solar. Because we bought the expensive generator, my husband thinks we have a good enough power supply and he’s not keen on buying another energy source. In a couple of years we’ll both be retired, and I think that’s where we’ll see how much we’re on the road.  Then I can justify spending $ on solar.  Do you guys haul a generator, too, or just depend on solar?

To synthesize everyone’s great advice, will this work for the next year?  (1) keep the converter, (2) buy an inexpensive lithium battery charger, and (3) add a battery monitor. 

Finally, do you think I should buy this stuff and then take it to the RV place, or ask them to buy it?  I don’t know if I’m being smart or tacky by doing the purchasing. 

pthomas745

The dual lithium batteries may turn out to have so much reserve power that recharging might not be a factor, depending on how long you might be away from shore power.  Unless you have some "special" use for a lot of power (Cpap machine, working on the road, etc) you may find you have plenty of power.  Even with a 12V fridge, a 200 amp hours of the lithiums (I'm assuming they are 100 amp hour each) you could power the trailer for 4 days or more (assuming the 12v fridge uses the reported 24-30 amp hours per 24 hours.)

A generator is a good backup...and it will put a charge into a battery, but there are downsides. (Noise, time to charge, need to carry fuel, etc). 

Dona

Thanks... I’m excited about the longevity of the lithiums, and luckily, we have no special power needs.