Lithium Battery and Converter/Charger Advice...please.

jeff57

I have purchased a 2021 320 CS-S and plan to install a BattleBorn Lithium (LiFePO4) 100 Ah battery.  Do I need to replace NuCamp's factory installed converter?  If so, can you please explain why and what converter you would recommend?  I see some discussion from this forum in 2019 about installing a Progressive Dynamics Converter/Charger (PD9130LV).

Thank you!

Marceline

I have a lithium battery and I haven’t swapped the converter. The stock converter doesn’t harm the lithium battery and I generally camp w/out hookups (which is why I wanted the lithium in the first place) so I recharge from a solar panel. 

Denny16

The nüCamp factory converter should do just fine, working in c junction with a Sokar setup.  If you do not have a solar setup, and do not want to deal,with swapping out the OEM charger, you can add an external,charger like this inside the TaB 320 tub, and plug in between trips (direct connect the charger to the battery, Then turn off the battery disconnect switch whilst charging:
https://www.victronenergy.com/chargers/blue-smart-ip67-charger-waterproof#downloads
cheers

jkjenn

I would swap the converter. You are reducing the life of the battery by not charging at the proper voltage and the T@b converter does not reach the proper voltage. 

To date I am unaware of other converters that reach the proper voltage, but I imagine there have to be options. I would proba ly look at some #vanlife builds.

dutsmiller

The stock charger just won't be able to provide you a full charge.  To my knowledge, the battery management system in the Battleborns prevents any possible damage no matter what you hook up to them.  I have a pair of 100ah BBs in my T@B 400 with the stock charger and solar controller.  We've gone the whole summer of weekend trips having only charged them off the solar panels.  I did make a point to plug it in on our last trip and noticed that when the batteries were at 65%, they were only drawing about 3amps from the charger, but when I let them discharge to 40%, they were drawing 15amps.

Really, the choice of replacing the charger comes down to how you intend to use your camper.

jeff57

Thanks for the advice.  My 320 CS-S is the Boondock package with solar.

jeff57

We plan to do a lot of boon docking, like 80% of our camping, so it sounds like I will be able to have my lithium battery reach full charge and last longer if I replace the factory converter with a Progressive Dynamic Converter/Charger or use an external charger to get my battery to 100%.
I am leaning towards replacing the converter but not sure what that would cost.  Any ideas?  Thanks

Sharon_is_SAM

@jefffoss - why not just recharge with solar?  If you are boondocking and have poor conditions to recharge, then you can use a lithium charger at home.  If you install a lithium compatible controller, is it compatible with lead acid batteries?  Thinking about resale in case someone wants a cheaper battery system.

CrabTab

Doesn't the converter only work when hooked up to shore power? If 80% of your camping is going to be boondocking @jefffoss, would the investment be better spent on additional solar capacity for your lithium setup?

VictoriaP

I’m leaning more towards the external portable charger option when I finally switch to lithium. One thing to remember is that for longest life, lithiums prefer not to be constantly holding a full charge, in fact, it’s often recommended that they be stored at around 50% state of charge. To me, that makes having the perfect converter to reach that 100% level less necessary, but I’m open to learning differently.

I know Battleborn recommended periodically using a NOCO Genius charger to at least one Tab owner rather than changing the converter.

Denny16

Interesting comments, after looking at the NOCO Charger, Imthink I prefer the Victron I referenced, which also has the Bluetooth connection.  Our 2018 TaB400 has a 110 VAC plug next to the  battery cutoff Switch, and room to mount the Victron charger.  Turn off the battery switch, plug in the charger, which can be wired to the battery directly and left.

You can mount this in the battery compartment on the older TaB400 or in the Tub on the 320 trailers.  The charger is waterproof also.  

Cheere

dutsmiller

To be clear, the stock solar controller can be reprogrammed to fully charge lithium batteries.  The only limitation is with the stock charger that runs off of shore power.

The way we use our camper (weekend trips), we have plenty of power while camping and the solar panels fully recharge the Battleborns during the week.

I have an extended trip coming up and will be taking a generator.  If our camping spot is too shaded to get adequate solar charging, I can run the generator to bring the batteries up to 60-70% if need be.  More likely, I'd drain them down to 20% and run the generator for a short period each day to bring them up to 40% as that range allows for full amperage to come from the stock shore-power charger.

Denny16

The reason to go to Lithium Battery is for boondocking/free camping, where you will be using solar panels or a generator.  You only need the lithium specific charger if you want to bring the battery up to 100% charge before heading out on a trip, and/or if you do not have Solar connected to keep the battery charged up between trips.

If you are primarily using hookup sites with shore power available, than you do not need to invest in lithium batteries.  A AGM battery will work just fine, and give you power for occasional boondocking trips.  If you have a solar package or suitcase solar setup, the AGM will charge back up just fine, unless your power requirements exceed the available power from your battery.

we currently only Boondock for around three days at a time, and our 200 Amp AGM meets our current needs.  When this battery fails or we start going on longer trips where thenAGM can not keep, then we will upgrade to a 200amp Lithium setup.  We have 194 OEM solar on the TaB and two,100 watt suitcase solar panels.  

Let the Adventure begin....

cheers

Marceline

jkjenn said:

I would swap the converter. You are reducing the life of the battery by not charging at the proper voltage and the T@b converter does not reach the proper voltage. 

To date I am unaware of other converters that reach the proper voltage, but I imagine there have to be options. I would proba ly look at some #vanlife builds.

I exchanged emails with the manufacturer of my battery LiON Energy and they didn't indicate that charging the batteries with the stock converter would do any harm to the battery. Can you point us to information supporting your contention that this reduces the life of the battery?

Thanks.

Denny16

Good question, as LiPro batteries do not like being stored long term at 100% charge, bringing them up to 80% just results in less available energy, unlike traditional lead acid or AGM batteries which want to be charged to 100%, and frequently.   LIthium batteries do not have a charge memory issue, and can be used quite robustly, which is one of their advantages, along with a deeper discharge level without damage.  

So I do not see how not charging them to 100% whilst using them can harm them either.  Battleborn batteries are self regulated, as are most RV Lithium batteries, so you can not over charge them or discharge them too low.

The only reason to swap out the OEM charger for a lithium specific version is to allow,the lithium battery to fully charge off the converter.  If you have a solar package on the trailer, especially the Victron MPPT nüCamp uses, can be setup for lithium and charge them to 100%.  Otherwise, stay with the OEM converter /charger and add an external lithium charger for the times you need to charge the batteries back up from shore power, cost less, easier to install. 
cheers

DougH

Although, from watching that WFCO video Bayliss posted:

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/10049/converter-power-supply#latest

... it doesn't look too difficult to swap out the converter/ charger in the WFCO power center with one of the WFCO or Progressive Dynamics lithium enabled equivalents for $200-300.  Given the $$$ cost of a Lithium battery, the price of a Lithium converter switchover seems relatively small if you spend any time on shore power.

Denny16

The the only time I see changing out the WFCO converter/charger is if you are using 200 or more amp battery banks, and need the extra charging capacity.  For a small 100 watt lithium battery in a TaB320 with solar, it is a unnecessary expense.  Once shut down, the solar will being the battery back up to 100%.
If you are camping with shore power, than you are fine with OEM setup, as the converter will be providing your power, battery gets float charge, which the OEM charger will do.
cheers

jeff57

Very helpful advice.  I am new to solar systems but did years of "dry camping" with a good old fashion battery.  Happy to upgrade to a T@B with solar!

Tundra57

So are you saying that a charger setup for AGM lead acid chemistry will correctly charge a lithium battery? In my time at Duracell their chemists said not.

I have a lithium battery in my motorcycle with the standard charger and it seems to work fine.

Denny16

Early lithium/LiPro batteries required a special Charger, to balance the cells.
The RV lithium batteries have this charging controller circuit built in, which prevents over charging and discharging the batteries to low.  Think of the, a smart batteries.  The WFCO charger will, charge the RV lithium battery, but not to a full 100% charge, which requires a charge voltage of more than 14vdc.  The WFCO is 13.x vdc on max charge output.  But it will get the battery up to 80+% of charge.  

The batteries do not have a charge memory like earlier rechargeable NiCad batteries, so this is not an issue, you just do not get to use the full capacity of the battery.  If you have the solar option, the Victron MPPT charge controller can be set to 100% charge lithium batteries, and the solar will finish charging them to 100%.
cheers

pthomas745

Can anyone show their Victron readings on the lithiums being "undercharged" only to 80 percent with the WFCO? Backed up by mulitmeter readings?  Just take your lithium down to 20 percent....take a screen shot of the Victron display......plug the trailer in and show the world the WFCO can only charge a lithium battery to 80 percent after "X" amount of time. 

This issue has become the new reverse polarity.

Prove the charging issue with the WFCO/Lithium with a Victron.

Denny16

Good Idea, it might be more or a little less, my 80% figure is theoretical based on the WFCO max charge voltage rate, and is a guesstimate at best.  This would be an interesting experiment. Most TaB owners that have gone to lithium also have solar, so the test would need to be run at night or disconnect the MPPT output from the battery (pull the fuse) during the test.
cheers

Tabnero

I was able to use my zamp 160 watt solar panel direct to the battery terminal via aligator clips anytime I wanted to by pass the current WFCO charger and take the battery to 100%. I would do this prior to going on a trip. The rest of the time the battery would rest at about 80%.

Sharon_is_SAM

@Tabnero - you have lithium?

Tabnero

@Sharon. Yes I have the Battleborn 100amp hour

dsfdogs

@pthomas745 that is exactly the test I've been meaning to do! I have the BB, stock converter and no solar. I've only camped once this year and was plugged in; at home I typically use my Noco 7200 to charge. I'll try to get to this in the next few days--I need to run the battery down first!

pthomas745

@dsfdogs Thank you for sacrificing one lithium battery cycle in the interest of furthering T@b science!

myjossi

I don’t regularly check in on this forum but I can fully charge my lithium battery with the stock WFCO converter. I can measure SOC via a Bluetooth app on my battery. Because people have questioned, I have even disconnected my battery after charging with the converter and let it rest several hours. The result is the same, a full charge. 

When I am boondocking, I obviously charge with solar and have my controller set to match my battery chemistry. 

myjossi

@Denny16 the wfco has a bulk charge setting of 14.4. It brings my lithium to full charge. 

myjossi

@pthomas745 I inadvertently ran my lithium to 0% buy trying to cool the fridge. Here are before and after shots from using only the stock converter. I know folks don’t want to believe that this is true, but it is.

Denny16

@myjossi  Thanks, this is what I was also seeing this in the On-Line specifications I looked up.  I just did not see a lithium specific battery option specification.  But batteries like Battleborn have their own built in controller, so it should not be an issue.
cheers