Norcold 3-way Underperforms on Propane in T@B 400

johnfconway

Opposite of frozen food problem in T@B 320!

We get 3-way frig to 36 degrees on shore power before loading for trip. Switch to battery power while on the road. After nearly 3 hour road time, frig temperature is pretty decent at 38 - 39 degrees. At campsite we switch to propane. When it is 80 - 95 degrees ambient in low humidity, the frig seems to struggle. Late afternoon and early evening frig temperature rises to 51 degrees. By morning (62 degrees ambient) it's down to 41 or 42 degrees. No opening frig to monitor. Have a bluetooth sensor inside that can be read without opening. It is very accurate at room temperature.

51 degrees for a few hours limits what we dare bring as it's a food safety issue for many items. The Sierra Torpedo IPA is fine, makes you feel like you're in England!

Anyone else in a 400 have this problem?  Thank you!

webers3

Living out of my 320s the whole summer I can say from experience that the 3 way, on propane or AC,  would not cool more than 30-35 degrees below ambient so when for 2 weeks the temps were in the high 80s and mid 90s I could not get the fridge below 45 and consequently had to buy cheap dorm fridge from Wal-Mart to continue my stay. As soon as the temps dropped to 70s the fridge worked great. I suspect it's the same for 400 3 way fridge.

johnfconway

webers3 said:

Living out of my 320s the whole summer I can say from experience that the 3 way, on propane or AC,  would not cool more than 30-35 degrees below ambient so when for 2 weeks the temps were in the high 80s and mid 90s I could not get the fridge below 45 and consequently had to buy cheap dorm fridge from Wal-Mart to continue my stay. As soon as the temps dropped to 70s the fridge worked great. I suspect it's the same for 400 3 way fridge.

Thank you, that is what I suspected. Instead of lamenting a bad choice for high desert southwest conditions, I think we'll reinstate the Coleman Xtreme cooler and block ice when forecast is >85 degrees.

Did you plug dorm-sized refrigerator into inverter?

webers3

@johnfconway I had shore power, i placed the fridge on a picnic table next to the T@B and plugged it into the external ac outlet 

johnfconway

Just a comment. For folks in hotter climate areas, the Norcold 3-way is the "Air8" of refrigerators. We managed to end up with both. Discovered this forum too late. If a Phoenix, AZ area dealer puts a unit with a known limited use refrigerator on the lot, I guess they're not likely to tell a potential customer to "join this forum and learn from people with real experience". After the fact, the red flags regarding this refrigerator in a climate that's reliably above 85 degrees from May through September were there.

Dutch061

It's unfortunate for certain, I have made more than one post regarding absorption (3 way refrigerators) vs the smaller compressor refrigerators. Fortunately, due to my previous 3 RV's with absorption refrigerators (including a 2017 Tab 320S) there was no doubt in my mind that I was going to "try the compressor refrigerator". All I can say is that it simply works, set it and forget it.

I turned on my refrigerator Friday evening and plugged the camper in with thoughts of heading out Saturday morning but decided not to. So for fun, I unplugged the camper to monitor the power usage (BMV712) over the course of the day with mostly cloudy skies. At 8:30 last night, the batteries showed 96% charged and this morning at 7:30 they were at 84%. By 10:00 AM, the solar panel had put the batteries back to 100%.

I also have a 3500 Watt Predator generator for those times of need, but based on this it appears that if I am in full sun for part of any day that it can recover fully or enough that it is not of concern for multiple days of dry camping. Which is great, because that is what we prefer. 

What is sad is that the RV Industry as a whole still tends to lean towards the absorption technology. I decided to go with the compressor refrigerator because I was tired of temperature fluctuations and wondering if the food that was in the refrigerator was still safe to eat. Yes, there are things that can be done to improve the efficiency of an absorption refrigerator and I have tried them all with varying results.

So even though my Air8 decides when we can camp in the summer, at least the stuff in the refrigerator is edible, cold, and not frozen.

Brad

johnfconway

Great little demonstration on battery power use, Brad!

Reliable sun power is our strength in the southwest. Another reason absorption refrigerators really don't have a place. I think there may have been a forum sub-thread of someone wanting to purchase a quality two-way to replace a worn out three-way in an older T@B. I will put a bug in the ear of nuCamp Tech. If they could come up with Tech Bulletin SOP that a decent Dealer could follow, we would seriously consider a swap out. Maybe gain a small storage shelf in the process!

Kr@cken

Is it possible to swap out the 3 way for the 2 way in a 2020 TAB 320?

Denny16

Yes @Kr@cken, anything is possible — it is a matter of how much the cabinets will need modified.  To get the most use out of a compressor refrig, you are going to need solar.  

The 3-way fridge was a good option when solar charging and newer higher capacity batteries were not readily available.  Now that the technology has come down in price, and should continue to do so, we can run more DC powered accessories like a compressor fridge with out any real penalties.

We are starting to see the introduction of all electric RVs, so the long rule of absorption refrigerator is on the way out.

cheers

DougH

@johnfconway I sort of cloned the GeoMars mod with a drawer based replacement of the Norcold 3 way with a small freezer / fridge that practically generates more energy than it uses in a slide out drawer.  But with an extra prep space board for the kitchen added on, and a different fridge.

Not sure if you were interested in doing something similar, or if you were looking for there to be a nüCamp dealer swap of the Norcold with a 12V compressor freezer fridge that uses less power, gets to temperature 10X faster, holds the set point temperatures under all conditions, and is an extra cubic foot larger due to not being an absorption class appliance.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/139393#Comment_139393

Denny16

On a 320, the pull out style 12VDC chest type compressor units are nice, make sure you get a compressor based unit.  Then just replace the three way with a new door and a pull out shelf on drawer guides.  I think this makes a nice choice over stooping down to access a low front loader fridge, especially as we get older. 
cheers

johnfconway

Just starting a spreadsheet with possible 12V refrigerator/freezers with Danfoss compressor that will fit the space left by the Norcold n-3104 3-way refrigerator. Just in case you are reading this before buying a travel trailer, steer clear of absorption (3-way) refrigerators if you will be using the trailer a lot under warm to hot conditions (daytime 82 degrees and higher). Your refrigerator will become a psychrophilic (cold loving) bacterial culture chamber. They simply cannot keep up.

It will take awhile to search and compile spreadsheet. Will provide it to this discussion when done. Will tackle this mod over the winter.

It's easy to be ignorant on certain aspects of travel trailer components when in the state of overwhelm.

Thank you to @Denny16 and @DougH for clarifying what's possible!

gulfarea

Johnfconway will be looking forward to your post on it. Just went threw hurrican sally in the heat here and our 3 way was useless to try to save any of our food. 

DougH

Also very much looking forward to your research.  Will likely buy a model year 2022 T@B 400 or 540 and need a fridge I can consistently count on regardless of ambient conditions.

Denny16

Doug, you can get the TaB 400 with a two-way compressor refrig from the factory.  The larger 3-way is a option replacing the large hanging wardrobe.  Also, the Solo version also ER has a larger 2- way fridge option (compressor type).

We have the standard TaB 400 with Isotherm CR65EL 2.3 CF compressor two way fridge.  This is big enough for food for two for 3-4 days of camping.  We wanted the large wardrobe locker.  Also I wouldn’t have a 3-way, I would build an ice box first and put a Marine cold plate in it.

cheers

MandoBiker

We have the Norcold 3-way fridge in the T@B 400 and it works great for us on shore power or propane.  Even in warmer temperatures on propane, fridge and freezer compartments have always seemed cold enough.  I haven't tested with a thermometer, but food is cold and frozen stuff is frozen.  I usually don't even set the control to more than 3 bars, and set it to 1 or 2 if I'm on 15/20-amp power or trying to conserve battery/propane.

webers3

@MandoBiker What is "warmer temperatures"? 70s? 80s? 90s?

johnfconway

I think conditions beyond ambient temperature, like blazing SW sun, influence whether absorption fridge can take temperature down 30 vs. 35 degrees. 41 degrees is the upper end of food safety. So, depending on the day, 71 - 76 degrees or lower would be low to no risk. Our dispersed camping radius has us over those temperatures by a lot pretty much May through September.

MandoBiker

@webers3 we're in the Northeast, so we aren't regularly in temperatures of 90+, but 80s and 90s is not uncommon in mid summer and we've camped in 80s - 90s in full sun and the fridge seemed to work fine.

jimcenname

I have a 3-way Norcold in my 2019 T@B 400. I just finished a 4-month cross country trip that took me through the south and southwest in August. The fridge fluctuated a little but almost always stays below 40 degrees. The stuff in the freeze seems to be frozen all the time. Ice doesn't melt. I keep it set at 4-bars. A few times it went above 40 but I don't know why. I live full-time in my 400 and the worst thing about the fridge is that I have to defrost it about once a month. Also, the 3-way is right next to the top of the bed. I wonder if a compressor model would be too loud to sleep. I did replace the cooling fan in the rear of the cabinet because it was too loud. 

Denny16

The compressor fridge in our TaB400 is very quiet, does not interfere with my sleep.  I lived on a 30-foot sailboat for a year, and the TaB400 has more room inside than that boat did.  Keep your trailer clean and aired out, and it should serve you well.  Happy adventures Jim.
cheers

johnfconway

@gulfarea @DougH

I put part of what I found into another discussion for efficiency:

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/11273/replacing-norcold-3-way-fridge-with-isotherm-2-way#latest

It looks like Doug is safe with options on potential 2022 purchase. Added in below might be useful to @gulfarea. Hope you didn't suffer much damage from hurricane Sally.

Searching for fridge options to fit the space left by vanquished 3-way ain't easy. The brands in the table I put in the other post are viable options for a simple front opening swap out. It looks like you have a lot more options to consider in a 320, since it's more than a simple swap out. 12V top loaders come into play as well as AC/DC top loaders. That would seem to me to be a good thing!

Besides comments regarding confidence in energy consumption and relative quietness, there's a total lack of credibility in any search yielding "10 Best RV Refrigerators for 2020" (or anything like that). Unlike Outdoor Gear Lab testing $100 hiking shoes (which companies willingly give), $1400 refrigerators are not put in and out of RVs for objective testing. There are few fridges looked at by any one reviewer and everybody and their brother is a reviewer (probably to get a free fridge by saying nice things). It's pretty bad when you recognize the reviewer has cut and pasted in "features" from the manufacturer's site as review comments!

The "top 10" includes giant home sized RV fridges even when you stipulate "small" in the search. Thankfully, there seems to be some useful "top 10" ratings for straight 12V top loaders. They seem to be in a category by themselves.

The only category I did not explore was AC/DC top loading fridges. Traditional sealed compressor, but top loading. Wasn't an option for the 400. Have read good things about them. You may be able to get a clean and honest search on these because of the specificity.

Verna

I purchased my 50 qt ARB fridge/freezer with the Danfoss compressor in 2013. From the time I purchased my former 400 in July of 2018 until December 2019 when I moved into my new house, the ARB ran constantly and consistently. It also ran for the previous 5 years for about 6 months of each year, consistently without fail. 

I set the temp at 27*, and that was the temp on the top of the front two sections and in the dairy section over the compressor. The bottom of the middle and front sections were at a lower temp and I was guaranteed to be able to have frozen meat (or whatever accidentally fell down into that area). 

I could not be more happy with a purchase. 

I also had the typical 2-way fridge in the 400 that worked very well. Between both the ARB and the fridge, I could go for two weeks without major grocery shopping, just needing fresh fruits and veggies between major shopping. 

I do not remember if the 50 qt ARB was one of the fridge/freezers that one owner used to replace the 3-way in their T@B S Max (forerunner of the 320), but it is possible to use the 50 qt ARB in a slider inside the smaller T@B. I considered it at one time, but I had one of the best working 3-way fridges in my 2014/15 T@B S Max, Sinai did not need to make that mid. 

Just another brand and size to put out there for your consideration for the sliding shelf models. 

Kellercarol

I previously posted that I have not been able to run my Tab400 3 way fridge on propane and a number of people said they had the same issue. It was fixed. If you go to the outside/backside of the fridge there is a round adjusting nut that is set by the factory. See yellow arrow. In my case it was set too low and the freezer worked but insufficient cooling made it to the fridge. Hope this is useful