Subfloor Issues - Azdel vs Luan

manyman297

@bergger

Thanks for the update!

Not sure how I feel about moving from something completely waterproof to something completely NOT waterproof just so my floor doesn't feel soft. And making that big of a move should be called out in the specs or as a service bulletin at the very least.

My guess is that most people shopping for a T@B are using information they've seen on YouTube videos as their primary source of information...and I mainly blame that on Nucamp's terrible brochure and website not spelling out detailed specs.

I think something like this warrants at least a new post in this forum letting people know what's going on. @Verna Is this something a forum member could do or would it have to be an official Nucamp post?

Denny16

Well, I think this is a step backwards.  Luan is a soft wood ply, that is prone to rot when it gets wet.  I prefer the Azdel layered floor.  Out TaB400 had a long term leak around the outside outlet, which allowed water to run in side the trailer behind and under the galley sink area.  Had this been a Luan subfloor, it would have rotted out.  

Glad ours was a non-wood composite floor, or we would have had worse issues.  You need to check more than the door and shower area for leaks, the side to floor seams, the wheel wells and any side openings like the 120VAC outlets on the side, and plumbing fittings, inside and out.  It is not a matter of if the floor will get wet, more like when it will happen.

Also there are better choices for marine grade, hardwood ply that come in various thickness, like Okoume (African hardwood) faces & core, 48" x 98 ½" 1.3 mm face veneers (before sanding.) Equal or nearly equal laminations. Water and boil proof (WBP) glue.  We build small lightweight rowing boats with this ply, holds up very well, and is rot resistant if it gets wet.  That said, any wood will rot, given the right moisture content and exposure to oxygen.

Cheers

manyman297

Yeah, I’m fairly familiar with marine grade materials and I’d think using a marine grade plywood would make more sense that two layers of luan...plus how are those two layers laminated? They probably aren’t and will be prone to squeaking. 

This smells of a money saving effort. Like I said earlier, Airstream is moving away from plywood subfloors and into composites. Let’s not compare Nucamp to Airstream build quality if this is the direction they’re moving. 

This means new and future owners will need to really be vigilant about inspecting their floors. And with foam under the luan the moisture has nowhere to go so it will just sit in the luan. 

Denny16

I agree, one of the biggest selling points to us, was the lack of plywood in the floor.  I have seen too many old trailers that died ahead of their time because of rot in the floor.  Even Dutchman didn’t use Luan in the floor, but a better quality thick plywood floor, that at least held up.  By the time you spend money and time sealing up a Luan panel, you might have been better off starting out with a better quality material, properly installed.

Previously, nüCamp tried changing the floor, when Azdel was in short supply in late 2017, gluing the top floor covering to the Greencore sub layer.  It did not work, and buckling occurred in the floor, requiring an expensive recall to repair those affected floors.  

Seems, they didn’t totally learn from that mistake, and are doing it again, eliminating the top Azdel layer, replacing it with inexpensive plywood, and trying to glue the Vinyl flooring cover directly to the plywood, which based on the above discussion and some others here is not working either, as uneven glue job is resulting in bubbles and lumps in the floor...
cheers

boseli

We have been following this thread for a while; we purchased our T@b 320S in November, build date was 9/2020. I decided to go out and look at our floor with a flashlight to see if there were any bubbles. We have had it parked in our garage since purchasing it; haven't used it yet. It never gets colder than 40 degrees and no moisture. 
The first photo shows a couple of bumps. I thought maybe they were just a couple of nail heads under the vinyl. But then I looked further and the lumps, bubbles and waves are everywhere on the floor! Running my hand across the waves and bumps is as bad as it looks. See photos. I sent the photos to our local dealer to see what the service guy suggests. They have fixed a couple other cosmetic issues for us already. 
Personally, I find this to be very disheartening since it is a new trailer that took a long time to get in the first place. It needs to be fixed because this greatly devalues the trailer and it will presumably only get worse with use and time. We are in Washington state, so taking it to the factory is not an option for us. 

I will follow up with more info as we go through the process. NuCamp needs to know that owners are not happy with this change in floor construction and hopefully they will correct this on future models. 
Linda
 

Denny16

That is a grand idea AirBoss.  Sounds like it was during the later 2021 model year trailers.  Photos I have seen of the earlier 2021 builds, had the black Azdel sub floor layer.  But, it would be good to know exactly when they started this new plywood flooring build.  
cheers

manyman297

@Denny16 We're definitely on the same wavelength here. And from my experience you never get a great bond when trying to glue vinyl to luan.

I'm taking bets on when this will come back to bite Nucamp.

I'm sure the beancounters were involved with this decision. It doesn't make much sense from a production standpoint.

I guess I'll just have to see how crappy my floor is when we get our trailer. This entire thread will serve as a nice time capsule we can refer back to when the recalls start. 

If anything wrap the luan in ice/water shield or similar material. You can wrap that down around the edges of the plywood preventing most overhead water (from the walls) from penetrating the edges of the luan. Sure it weighs a bit more but it's cheap and effective.

Airstream applies a waterproofing to the edges of their plywood subfloors. Let's hope Nucamp at least did this.

@Denny16 It's concerning you've found leaks in your '18 already. I really hope we're all not buying into a company that may not be living up to its mission statement anymore. 

manyman297

boseli said:

We have been following this thread for a while; we purchased our T@b 320S in November, build date was 9/2020. I decided to go out and look at our floor with a flashlight to see if there were any bubbles. We have had it parked in our garage since purchasing it; haven't used it yet. It never gets colder than 40 degrees and no moisture. 
The first photo shows a couple of bumps. I thought maybe they were just a couple of nail heads under the vinyl. But then I looked further and the lumps, bubbles and waves are everywhere on the floor! Running my hand across the waves and bumps is as bad as it looks. See photos. I sent the photos to our local dealer to see what the service guy suggests. They have fixed a couple other cosmetic issues for us already. 
Personally, I find this to be very disheartening since it is a new trailer that took a long time to get in the first place. It needs to be fixed because this greatly devalues the trailer and it will presumably only get worse with use and time. We are in Washington state, so taking it to the factory is not an option for us. 

I will follow up with more info as we go through the process. NuCamp needs to know that owners are not happy with this change in floor construction and hopefully they will correct this on future models. 
Linda
 

@boseli Are the bumps solid or does it seem like there's air in between them? I wouldn't too concerned if it seems to be solid. Sure it looks terrible when you shine a light across it but I bet it's adhering ok. The tiny raised bumps may be a concern as they could break through the surface...the problem is if it's staples/screwheads or just debris. 

I know this is a total 1st world problem but news of a plywood subfloor is a major bummer. 

DelZMan

Just when I was getting very excited about my decision to order a Tab 400 for delivery this June.... This may be the game changer that reverses that decision and revises my enthusiasm which was earned from this forums demonstrated loyalty and the numerous testimonies of customer experience with nuCamp. I completely agree with the comments of knowing the floor- a major component, was not going to be an issue due to any potential water damage in the future due to its materials and construction. I am now heavily saddened and seriously disappointed about that component’s potential. I feel cheated now, by the revelation that this version of the continuous improvement principle has seemingly compromised my expectation for a quality, trouble-free experience.

Back to lurking, for now. A decision needs to be made. Soon.

Denny16

The only thing nails, screws or staples could be used for is to bind the two plywood layers together, but doubt there are any.  Most like debris form the ply.  I hope nüCamp bonded the two layers together with some form of construction adhesive or glue.  In boat building, we use waterproof glue to bond the layers tougher.  Edge sealing would be required to make this floor last it’s 3-year warranty period.  

The photo above looks like more air bubbles from an uneven glue job on the vinyl floor.  Why nüCamp went back to household floor coverings, from the marine grade covering they used on the 2018/2019 TaB400s is another mystery, and another step backwards in my opinion.  

Cheers

boseli

I think that NuCamp will probably change the flooring components for new orders at some point. That would be something to check before purchasing, but overall, this is a very high quality unit. We have owned many RVs over the years, and this is at the top of the list for quality. No RV is ever perfect and humans make them, and we certainly aren't perfect. It is disappointing to have this happen with our floor, but it's not a gamechanger for me. 
There is a little bit of give in the floor around the bumps; I don't think it is debris as it is too massive for that and the bumps are too large for it to be debris. There are several bumps that look like possible nail heads, but there is a lot more going on than that. We will see what NuCamp says about it. Our service guy sent them the photos and will let us know when he hears back.

DougH

I've had several RV techs say it's hard to get an Azdel / foam sandwich to work on any span longer than six feet. Just not strong enough. The 320 may be as large as you can go without using fully encapsulated plywood, sealed CDX tongue in groove, or something similar for a more rigid feel.  And even then, my baby 320 had a couple soft spots from day one, one which may be a broken aluminum strut weld which forced me to put a layer of vinyl planking down on top. With the planking, life is good, aside from a slight dip where the most significant soft spot lives underneath.

I'm pretty understanding of nüCamp trying to strike a balance between rot risk and floor rigidity. But if my next nüCamp is a model between 400 and Avia size, I'd hope they go with fully sealed / encapsulated plywood, and not try to get a layer or two of Azdel to have enough strength.

tabiphile

There is a waterproofed Luan available. Using waterproofed luan would be a potential improvement. 
Using run of the mill Luan subflooring would not.
Which one are they using?

Denny16

The original TaB 400 floor in 2018 and 2019 models had a layer of Greencore with a layer of Azdel bonded to it.  Yes by themselves they are not very ridged or could span much length unsupported. But the TaB floor is a ladder frame of aluminum square tubing, with foam in between the aluminum framer members, so the Greencore and Azdel are being supported by the frame and foam core.  This spreads the weight out along the e tire structure.

As for a subfloor material to add stiffness, composite bamboo would work, is is a green sustainable product, and is more water proof/resistant than most plywood materials.  A bamboo top floor over the Greencore/Azdel laminate would be nice to in place or vinyl flooring, and would stiffen the floor.
cheers

Denny16

I looked up commercially available Luan plywood and it is normally available in thickness from 1/4 to 1/8th inch.  No mention of waterproof or even water resistant varieties.  For applications, this was listed:

“Uses:  Because of its pliable nature, luan is an excellent product for dollhouses, toys and other small craft projects that require thin wooden panels. It is used to make small boats and tools as well. It is easy to die-cut small parts out of the plywood. Luan is also sometimes used as an underlayment for resilient flooring, but professionals warn that it should only be used as a supplement to a more durable subfloor, mostly because of the danger of swelling from moisture intrusion.  Luan is also used for some cabinet applications, such as for thin divider panels.”

So Lun is not structural subfloor material.. It was popular as a household wall paneling back in the 1960/1970s.  This is a good application for,this material, not in floors.

Cheers

manyman297

@Denny16 I love how the quote specifically says to avoid its use on floors...and here we are with luan under our floors. Well, I guess if a dollhouse can be built out of it, why not the floor of a moving home in 100 degree temperature swings?

bergger

Denny16 said:

That is a grand idea AirBoss.  Sounds like it was during the later 2021 model year trailers.  Photos I have seen of the earlier 2021 builds, had the black Azdel sub floor layer.  But, it would be good to know exactly when they started this new plywood flooring build.  
cheers

The floor change was made in January of 2020.  This is what I was told by NuCamp.  My 2021 was built in the January/February 2020 time frame and I was told it had the luan replacement.  When I get it out of storage I'll see if I can find a place to peak under the vinyl to confirm.  Like I said earlier I'll just use the trailer as I intend and keep up on the PM best that I can.  No sense worrying if the milk has not spilled yet.  And if it does spill then I'm confident NuCamp will make it right.  They are good about that.  So many other great qualities in the trailer that I would not overlook a purchase just because of this.  Many trailers still use some form of wood for a subfloor However, there are some other great trailers out there as well so if you have not purchased yet certainly look around. Lance, Airstream, Escape, Big Foot and Oliver all come to mind.

Denny16

Yes @bergger, many trailers made here in USA use plywood subfloors, but they normally use an exterior or marine grade plywood, not 1/4-1/8ths inch Luan...   My 1958 Kenskill trailer had a wood floor on a steel frame, but it was solid hardwood boards, about 4-p to 6 inches wide, tongue and grove fit together.  It had Lino (the real thing not vinyl) floor over the sealed wood floor.  This floor lasted for the lifetime of the trailer, I had it in the 70s and when I sold it, still had no floor issues.

Before we got our TaB, we looked at some similar trailers, but when we saw Luan ply in the cabinets, we turned around and left.  I wouldn’t even consider a trailer with a Luan floor, no matter how well sealed it was...
cheers

tabiphile

Denny16 said:

I looked up commercially available Luan plywood and it is normally available in thickness from 1/4 to 1/8th inch.  No mention of waterproof or even water resistant varieties.  For applications, this was listed:

“Uses:  Because of its pliable nature, luan is an excellent product for dollhouses, toys and other small craft projects that require thin wooden panels. It is used to make small boats and tools as well. It is easy to die-cut small parts out of the plywood. Luan is also sometimes used as an underlayment for resilient flooring, but professionals warn that it should only be used as a supplement to a more durable subfloor, mostly because of the danger of swelling from moisture intrusion.  Luan is also used for some cabinet applications, such as for thin divider panels.”

So Lun is not structural subfloor material.. It was popular as a household wall paneling back in the 1960/1970s.  This is a good application for,this material, not in floors.

Cheers

Anyone who has done amount of flooring work has used luan underlayment. It is unquestionably the most commonly used subflooring material available. These materials are not water proof and have very little structural integrity. A plywood subfloor provides that in most applications. Standard luan is not water resistant.  Less common but available are luan plywood that are bonded with waterproof glues. These are considered to be exterior grade materials. Here is one such example. 1/4-in x 4-ft x 8-ft Sumauma Plywood Underlayment in the Plywood department at Lowes.com There many more.
Folks involved in the construction of recreational campers will be aware of these alternatives and hopefully use a material that meets the presumed waterproof requirement. 
Until there is specificity about what material is actually being used conclusions are pointless. 

manyman297

tabiphile said:

Denny16 said:

I looked up commercially available Luan plywood and it is normally available in thickness from 1/4 to 1/8th inch.  No mention of waterproof or even water resistant varieties.  For applications, this was listed:

“Uses:  Because of its pliable nature, luan is an excellent product for dollhouses, toys and other small craft projects that require thin wooden panels. It is used to make small boats and tools as well. It is easy to die-cut small parts out of the plywood. Luan is also sometimes used as an underlayment for resilient flooring, but professionals warn that it should only be used as a supplement to a more durable subfloor, mostly because of the danger of swelling from moisture intrusion.  Luan is also used for some cabinet applications, such as for thin divider panels.”

So Lun is not structural subfloor material.. It was popular as a household wall paneling back in the 1960/1970s.  This is a good application for,this material, not in floors.

Cheers

Anyone who has done amount of flooring work has used luan underlayment. It is unquestionably the most commonly used subflooring material available. These materials are not water proof and have very little structural integrity. A plywood subfloor provides that in most applications. Standard luan is not water resistant.  Less common but available are luan plywood that are bonded with waterproof glues. These are considered to be exterior grade materials. Here is one such example. 1/4-in x 4-ft x 8-ft Sumauma Plywood Underlayment in the Plywood department at Lowes.com There many more.
Folks involved in the construction of recreational campers will be aware of these alternatives and hopefully use a material that meets the presumed waterproof requirement. 
Until there is specificity about what material is actually being used conclusions are pointless. 

Good point. I didn’t realize they made an exterior luan. Although I’ve seen exterior rated sheeting rot...just took longer.

Denny16

The Sumauma exterior ply example posted above is not PI Luan, it is Sumauma, a different type of plywood.  A lot of people of people use the term Luan for Asian area wood produced into plywood.  When actually Luan is a specific wood species found in the Philippines and adjacent Southeastern Asia area.   It is commonly used as door skins (1/8th inch panels), and cuts easy with a utility knife.  We use in in boat building as template material for cutting out various boat parts, like bulkhead to hull curves in marine plywood.

It is also not a sustainable harvested tree, and its sources are in decline. I did find a reference to a water resistant glue version of Luan, but it is intended for household applications.  

See: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/luan-wood-99466.html

Yes, plywood is a common floor underlayment, the Sumauma referenced in the previous post is an example, but not 1/4-1/8 inch Luan panels.  But a material that has a house floor underlayment application, might it might not be the best choice for a RV floor substrate, like the TaB trailers, that live in a more demanding environment. 

As to what kind of plywood nüCamp is using, we do not really know.  Quite often the term Luan is used to refer to an imported plywood panel used in door construction and floor underlayment, but not necessary a panel made of actual Luan wood, it could be Sumauma, or another wood species.  Until we find out, we are all just guessing...

cheers

xdr

@bergger said: 
  As long as it stays dry from above I believe it will.  If water gets into it I'm not so sure.  I'll be checking the threshold at my front door on a regular basis, and also around the shower.  But this should be done on a regular basis regardless of the floor you have. 


This is interesting because when we had our floor repaired for bubbling this January, they put a bead of caulk on the outside of the bathroom wall. Looks good and clean with the white bead of caulk on the floor. Perhaps it was to prevent moisture from the bathroom seeping under the vinyl to the wood floor. 

For those with 400’s built later than Jan-20, might want to ask if the caulking is a good preventative for leaks. Seems like an easy fix. 

Xdr

narniaorwhat

@boseli when I spoke with Aaron, he’s a manager at NuCamp, either repair or warranty dept (don’t recall which dept) he mentioned that he knows a dealer that can comfortably perform the repair in Washington state, there’s another one in California that he recommends too.  You might want to reach out and see which dealership it is and if it’s not too far for you to take it. 

boseli

narniaorwhat said:

@boseli when I spoke with Aaron, he’s a manager at NuCamp, either repair or warranty dept (don’t recall which dept) he mentioned that he knows a dealer that can comfortably perform the repair in Washington state. You might want to reach out and see, which dealership it is and if it’s not too far for you to take it. 

Thanks! I'll see what I hear from our dealer/service department. They are waiting to hear back from NuCamp. I will definitely keep this in mind. 

manyman297

I reached out to Nucamp and received this response from their customer service: 

The lauan is not a marine grade, water resistant lauan. It is a standard grade lauan. 

From material combination to layering thickness and order, we have constantly sought to deliver a better product.  Most recently, we migrated from a combination of composites to a combination of composites coupled with lauan.  There are a vast number of benefits to employing composites.  Unfortunately, we have discovered that in some instances, certain materials are not ideal for our camper floors.  A prime example a couple of years ago when our supplier suggested we shift to greencore as an upper layer to our flooring.  Sadly, it resulted in many buckling and delaminations.   Greencore has proven to be a great exterior flooring material; however, it is not suited for the interior layer.   When we were able to shift to Azdel, we discovered that while it has many amazing properties, it is not ideal in the pursuit of a firm floor. Some campers believed that that the integrity of their floor was compromised.   While that was, and is, not the case, we sought to address the issue. This is why we elected to add 2 layers of lauan into the layering process.  While this new approach made the cost of the floor more expensive, we are more confident in our current flooring product than ever.  This belief is echoed by multiple industry professionals – vendors and dealers alike.

Not sure why they'd skip using marine grade. It sounds like the decision was thought through. Time will tell I guess. 

xdr

Even with the problems we had with the bubbling floor, we have great confidence in the quality of both our floor and nuCamp's Customer Service Dept.. Our camper, and any camper,  is not impervious to problems. But we know from experience that nuCamp stands behind their product and takes responsibility to make things right.
 
We plan to enjoy the heck out of our Tab.
Enjoy the ride and don't worry about tomorrow- each day has enough trouble of its own. 

Tampakayaker

Maybe they should go with all aluminum flooring with a backing and vinyl

tabiphile

manyman297 said:

I reached out to Nucamp and received this response from their customer service: 

The lauan is not a marine grade, water resistant lauan. It is a standard grade lauan. 

Not sure why they'd skip using marine grade. It sounds like the decision was thought through. Time will tell I guess. 

"Well, look at the upside. Luan can be cut to shape with a utility knife.....ah, yeah, that is the upside. Something else? No, that. Really? Yes, really, that. Oh."

manyman297

I have no idea how much Azdel costs but if you had to chose a plywood, at least choose something marine grade. Just seems sensible given the long history of rotted plywood floors RVs typically develop. Once that floor/wall and ceiling/wall intersection starts to age, you'll get water penetrating it, making its way down the wall and wicking into the subfloor. 

But yes, no sense in worrying about it but it's certainly a disappointment to a lot of us.

Denny16

OK, I heard back from Aaron, his first reply stated:
” Good Morning Al, 

In the 2021 models there was a change from the Azdel underlayment to a Luan underlayment.  A couple reasons for the change to Luan.

 - Our floor manufacturer was experiencing issues with the Azdel bonding correctly during their production process

 - We had many complaints and concerns that the floor was "soft" and you could feel the floor framing while walking in the camper

We decided to make the change at model year on our TAB 400 and TAB 320 campers.  The floor manufacturer does install a layer of Luan to the top side of the floor.  We then install another layer of Luan here at the factory for strength and then the layer of linoleum on top. “

I asked if the ply was actual Luan (made from Luan wood) or a different type of plywood.  His response today was:
” From my understanding the pressed layer of floor from the manufacturer is Luan or a Meranti type of plywood.  The second layer that we install is a birch plywood for more firmness in the floor, and it is glued to the other layer of flooring.  It is also screwed to that layer as well. “

So there we have it, sometime during the 2021 build year, nüCamp switched to ply underlayment.  Given that actual Luan is in short supply, due to over harvesting, theTab floor manufacturer is using some type of Meranti, which is a commercial floor underlayment material, as previously mentioned here in this discussion.
What is interesting, is the floor assembly (which is mounted to the frame by nüCamp) is a pre-made unit they  source from an outside source. 

Next, the second ply layer, is probably Baltic Birch (which is what the cabinets and interior walls are made from) is added by nüCamp to the pre-built floor unit, and is glued and screwed in place.  This is a high grade Birch plywood with all Birch layers, with no voids or fills and a water resistant glue is normally used.
Then the Lino is then glued to the birch sub floor.  So this floor build should be fairly water resistant, given as previously stated, Greencore is on the underside and is water proof and the top birch layer is fairly water resistant, which is glued to the underlayment.  This should hold up quite well.

To recap seems the complete floor assembly from the bottom up is:
Greencore / foam and aluminum ladder frame assembly / Meranti underlayment / Birch Ply / Lino floor covering.  The whole assembly is put down before the trailer build starts, and it appears from Verna’s photos, the Lino is all one piece.

I also found out, what I was told was a moisture on the 2018 TaB Floor repair,
 (the black stuff in my photos) was actually Azdel, and that two layers of Azdel are put down to replace the defective Greencore, then the new floor covering is glued on top.

Mischief Managed...
cheers