Subfloor Issues - Azdel vs Luan

boseli

Denny16 said:

OK, I heard back from Aaron, his first reply stated:
” Good Morning Al, 

In the 2021 models there was a change from the Azdel underlayment to a Luan underlayment.  A couple reasons for the change to Luan.

 - Our floor manufacturer was experiencing issues with the Azdel bonding correctly during their production process

 - We had many complaints and concerns that the floor was "soft" and you could feel the floor framing while walking in the camper

We decided to make the change at model year on our TAB 400 and TAB 320 campers.  The floor manufacturer does install a layer of Luan to the top side of the floor.  We then install another layer of Luan here at the factory for strength and then the layer of linoleum on top. “

I asked if the ply was actual Luan (made from Luan wood) or a different type of plywood.  His response today was:
” From my understanding the pressed layer of floor from the manufacturer is Luan or a Meranti type of plywood.  The second layer that we install is a birch plywood for more firmness in the floor, and it is glued to the other layer of flooring.  It is also screwed to that layer as well. “

I heard back from Emily, Warranty specialist at NuCamp, today. We have a 2021 T@b 320S and I posted on page 3 of this thread due to the floor issues that were being discussed here. I will add one of my photos below. Our floor is bubbling and has lumps all over. There are also 4 bumps that appeared to be nail or screw heads, and that is now indicated due to the latest info from NuCamp quoted above. I had mentioned to her that I was concerned about moisture being a potential problem.

Here is what Emily said in her email to me today: "We believe the glue was spread unevenly under the linoleum when the unit was manufactured thus causing the waviness. At this point there should be no concern of water damage. The switch to luan was to strengthen the floor. The soft floors were enough of a concern that we decided we needed to find a way to make the floor sturdier. We believe that over the course of ownership the luan floors will make for a better camping experience. We were simply trying to make the trailer the best it could be for as long as possible.

We advise to have the linoleum replaced."
She asked where we were located, so presumably we will work this out with our local T@b dealer who is about 40 minutes from our house. Not sure how they will go about this, but we appreciate the responsiveness and the willingness of NuCamp to work this out. 
Here is the photo showing a couple of the bumps that look like screw heads poking up:
It will be interesting to see how they fix it. 

Denny16

In a house, the normal Lino removal process is to heat up the Vinyl floor to get the glue to release, scrape the vinyl floor covering back to remove it.  Then the subfloor is re-sanded and/or glue removed to get a smooth surface back, and the vinyl floor is replaced.   

If you have a choice in a new floor covering, try to get Marmoleum floor covering, this is a waterproof commercial type of linoleum (not vinyl) and is very durable, and not as reactive to heat or temperature changes as vinyl is.  It is also a little thicker, and lays down better.  The TaB Outback used to come with a Marmoleum floor.
cheers

manyman297

@boseli Another replacement option could be waterproof plank flooring. A lot of van builds use this and I wish more RV manufacturers would go this route. It simply “floats” above the subfloor (with a cushioned layer under it). The beauty of this is that it makes any future repairs much easier since it’s not glued to the subfloor.

manyman297

Denny16 said:

OK, I heard back from Aaron, his first reply stated:
” Good Morning Al, 

In the 2021 models there was a change from the Azdel underlayment to a Luan underlayment.  A couple reasons for the change to Luan.

 - Our floor manufacturer was experiencing issues with the Azdel bonding correctly during their production process

 - We had many complaints and concerns that the floor was "soft" and you could feel the floor framing while walking in the camper

We decided to make the change at model year on our TAB 400 and TAB 320 campers.  The floor manufacturer does install a layer of Luan to the top side of the floor.  We then install another layer of Luan here at the factory for strength and then the layer of linoleum on top. “

I asked if the ply was actual Luan (made from Luan wood) or a different type of plywood.  His response today was:
” From my understanding the pressed layer of floor from the manufacturer is Luan or a Meranti type of plywood.  The second layer that we install is a birch plywood for more firmness in the floor, and it is glued to the other layer of flooring.  It is also screwed to that layer as well. “

So there we have it, sometime during the 2021 build year, nüCamp switched to ply underlayment.  Given that actual Luan is in short supply, due to over harvesting, theTab floor manufacturer is using some type of Meranti, which is a commercial floor underlayment material, as previously mentioned here in this discussion.
What is interesting, is the floor assembly (which is mounted to the frame by nüCamp) is a pre-made unit they  source from an outside source. 

Next, the second ply layer, is probably Baltic Birch (which is what the cabinets and interior walls are made from) is added by nüCamp to the pre-built floor unit, and is glued and screwed in place.  This is a high grade Birch plywood with all Birch layers, with no voids or fills and a water resistant glue is normally used.
Then the Lino is then glued to the birch sub floor.  So this floor build should be fairly water resistant, given as previously stated, Greencore is on the underside and is water proof and the top birch layer is fairly water resistant, which is glued to the underlayment.  This should hold up quite well.

To recap seems the complete floor assembly from the bottom up is:
Greencore / foam and aluminum ladder frame assembly / Meranti underlayment / Birch Ply / Lino floor covering.  The whole assembly is put down before the trailer build starts, and it appears from Verna’s photos, the Lino is all one piece.

I also found out, what I was told was a moisture on the 2018 TaB Floor repair,
 (the black stuff in my photos) was actually Azdel, and that two layers of Azdel are put down to replace the defective Greencore, then the new floor covering is glued on top.

Mischief Managed...
cheers

That’s a very thorough explanation they gave. The birch layer might have waterproof glue (I know Baltic birch in 4x8 sheets is considered exterior grade if sealed...the glue is waterproof).

I think the screws are going to be a problem and something to look out for (obviously Boseli is having issues). I would’ve just bonded the birch and luan and went without screws but what do I know? 

Sharon_is_SAM

I exchanged emails with our contact in the nuCamp Customer Service Department regarding the member concerns with the recent use of luan in the TaB flooring.  He reported that this change occurred with the 2021 400 and 320 models.  I asked for information to share and here is his response.  

Sharon - Moderator

 nuCamp’s mission is to build the exceptional.  With that in mind, we are always striving to better our build, quality, functionality, and overall product evolution. 

 Over the past several years, the flooring infrastructure for TAGs, TABs and our Cirrus truck campers have evolved.  From material combination to layering thickness and order, we have constantly sought to deliver a better product.  Most recently, we migrated from a combination of composites to a combination of composites coupled with lauan.  There are a vast number of benefits to employing composites.  Unfortunately, we have discovered that in some instances, certain materials are not ideal for our camper floors.  A prime example a couple of years ago when our supplier suggested we shift to greencore as an upper layer to our flooring.  Sadly, it resulted in several floors buckling or delaminating.  Greencore has proven to be a great exterior flooring material; however, it is not suited for the interior layer.  When we were able to shift to Azdel, we discovered that while it has many amazing properties, it is not ideal in the pursuit of a firm floor.  It is perfect for sidewall layering; however, in a floor application, it manifests a spongy feel – so much to the point that some campers believed that that the integrity of their floor was compromised.  While that was, and is, not the case, we sought to address the issue.

 After consulting with the Azdel company, our laminator and floor supplier, we developed a solution that added a much greater degree of rigidity to our flooring structure.  With that, we elected to add 2 layers of lauan into the layering process.  While this new approach made the cost of the floor more expensive, we are more confident in our current flooring product than ever.  This belief is echoed by multiple industry professionals – vendors and dealers alike.  With that said, we are never fully content. We will constantly pursue even better flooring and other infrastructure alternatives.

 At nuCamp, our number one priority is your happiness.  To see that through, we strive to build the exceptional.  Because of that mission, we stand proudly behind what we make, 100% every time.  While the flooring composition has evolved over the years, one thing has never changed - our warranty and commitment to the customer.  Our life blood is the nuCamp family and because of that, we only make decisions that we believe result in a better unit.

4ncar

@Sharon_is_SAM:  Thank you for this, although it is now a canned response from NuCamp, which, I in the least accept.  I will say, I am happy with the Azdel in my camper, and believe that I have it in my floor(Assume so at this point).  I sleep better knowing there isn't a rot possibility.  I have not experienced any soft floor issues in my 320 in the 3(going on 4th) seasons that I have had it.

For the purposes of, "for file," is it possible to extract from NuCamp a time line of flooring materials since they have stated there have been multiple iterations over the the years?  This might be handy for us, as well as new comers to the forum to have reference to in the Files.  What say you?

Thanks for your efforts! 😀

Sharon_is_SAM

We have a timeline in the forum.

1.  This was taken from a 12/2015 thread and quoted Scott Hubble.  He was referring to the 2016 models and we now know that the early 2016 320s had luan (miranti) and then they transitioned to Azdel for the late model year 2016 builds.

From Scott Hubble - about the floor construction:

"they used to be (vapor barrier, plywood, linoleum) when Dutchmen made them...

when we (Little Guy) took over, we made the sidewalls and floors with aluminum frames & shot block insulation

So the (floor) layers are (from the bottom up):  vapor barrier, 1/4" miranti or azdel, 1" aluminum framed floor with insulation/styro, 1/8" miranti or azdel and then linoleum.  

we are very close to moving to a new 100% composite floor"

2.  The 2017 model year 320s have all Azdel as far as I know.

3.  Azdel supply issue:  Greencore used in 2018 model year TaB 320 and 400 production 11/1/17 - 1/31/18

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/8937/underlayment-in-t-b-320-t-b-400#latest

4.  2 layers of luan applied under the vinyl flooring starting with 2021 model year for 320 and 400.

That's all I have.  Anyone else can add to this?

ScottG

Just a nit-picky thing but a common misuse (including by nuCamp). I'm pretty sure the finish flooring in T@Bs is vinyl, not linoleum. While similar, they are not the the same product--each offers its own pros and cons, and the differences (such as water resistance) might be relevant to RV applications.  

bergger

So is it two layers or luan or is it one layer of luan with a top layer of Baltic birch?? Sounds like two responses from NuCamp. They advised me and Sharon that it’s just luan and they advised Denny16 that it’s luan and Baltic birch. 

jkjenn

Sharon_is_SAM said:

We have a timeline in the forum.

4.  2 layers of luan applied under the vinyl flooring starting with 2021 model year for 320 and 400.

That's all I have.  Anyone else can add to this?

I thought that I read, earlier, the change was made part of the way through the 2021 model?

Sharon_is_SAM

@bergger - perhaps they are using the term “luan” loosely.  It may well be a top layer of birch and it may be luan or even another thin plywood down the road.  I think the important thing is we know there is wood above, not below the aluminum framing.  

(Edit - corrected as there is no longer Azdel in the floor.)

4ncar

...and after 1/31/18-2021, back to all azdel?

boseli

Sharon_is_SAM said:

@bergger - perhaps they are using the term “luan” loosely.  It may well be a top layer of birch and it may be luan or even another thin plywood down the road.  I think the important thing is we know there is wood above the aluminum framing and there is still an Azdel sandwich😊

According to what some have been told by NuCamp representatives, there is no Azdel in the floor. My interpretation, anyway. Greencore, framing, insulation, two layers of Luan and/or thin plywood. No Azdel mentioned. 

manyman297

There’s no composite other than the greencore on the very bottom. So it’s greencore on bottom, aluminum framing and insulation above that, and then 2 layers of luan. There’s no Azdel at all anymore except the sidewall construction.

Sharon_is_SAM

@manyman297 - I agree - rereading the memo, that is what it sounds like.  Now no Azdel in the floor because it is not well suited for flooring.  Also, I was recently reminded that Azdel is not waterproof - rather it is water resistant.  Still, no delamination if it gets wet and no mold.  

@jkjenn - I was told that the construction change occurred with the 2021 TaB models - no date specified, so it is likely that trailers that came off the line early were built with Azdel in the floor.

Sharon_is_SAM

4ncar said:

...and after 1/31/18-2021, back to all azdel?

@4ncar - As far as we know they returned to using Azdel because the vinyl did not adhere well to the Greencore top layer.  And they continued to have reports of soft flooring which is the problem with using Azdel in the floor.  

Denny16

And by soft floor nüCamp is referring to a soft padded feeling when walking on the Azdel floor, not soft weak spots.  We like the Azdel floor, it as a nice soft feel underfoot like walking on a lightly padded thin carpet.  

Cheers

ChrisFix

My 2021 T@B 400 (early 2021 production) has a rock solid feeling floor - so I'm willing to bet it is plywood, not Azdel. Having not owned an Azdel floored 400, I have nothing to compare it to, but the 2021 400 certainly doesn't feel soft or padded in any way. 
So if a stiffer floor was what nuCamp was after, I'd say they were successful. Not sure where the danger points for the plywood layer to get wet come from...as it has a waterproof protective layer on top (vinyl floor) and bottom (green core). And hopefully they do something to seal the edges or keep water from typically getting to them.
Time will tell...

Blueespy

Early 2019 t@b 400 BDL.  Just back from a 10-day trip and over the last few days my wife kept telling me she felt there was a small depression in the floor about a foot from the threshold.  While cleaning I ran my hand over the floor and yep, there is a depression.  I crawled under and removed a number of the passenger side screws from the rubber undercarriage cover so I could peek in.  Sure enough right at the dark gray tape I see a bubble about 8".  I can't see any damage, nor water lines etc., so I'm not sure how this occurred.  I sent an email to nucamp warranty and hope to hear back this week. We're planning a 8-week trip mid April so naturally we hope to fix whatever this is.