battery not holding charge

boiseites

We have a 2021 320S, not a Boondock version.  We have taken it out on four 2-night trips, the last two of which were boondocking. This most recent one, we had issues with our battery - it would not hold a charge. For the one boondocking trip, we had to drive about 30 miles round trip on a (reasonable) gravel road. The battery light indicates that a cell is probably bad.  For the one boondocking trip, we had to drive about 30 miles round trip on a (reasonable) gravel road. My question is  -- did the gravel road contribute to the damaged cell?  Or was the battery just defective?  Also, should we consider purchasing a battery that is able to tolerate more rough roads? 

Denny16

Was the battery charged to start?  Sounds like your TV is not charging the battery.  I would have the battery checked.  The 320 batteries are supplied by the dealer, and are not the best quality to start with in many cases.
cheers

Sharon_is_SAM

What battery light indicates cell damage?

boiseites

The light is on the top of battery (in a port).  Looked it up on web and said that yellow/orange indicted probably bad cell.  

boiseites

Denny16  Battery should have been fully charged. We will test further when we get home.

Sharon_is_SAM

@boiseites - did you recharge it after boondocking?  Do you have solar?  How are you measuring voltage?  AGM batteries hold up better with vibration.  If you are boondocking, you will want more capacity anyway, so now is a good time to upgrade.

pthomas745

@boiseites Which battery is this?  I would be interested in seeing what your "lights" are telling you.  It would just as likely be a failure of some little "monitor" as it would be a battery failure.  No matter what battery you purchase......get a simple multimeter.  It is so easy to use....90 percent of "my battery is ________" issues can be solved or simplified by two minutes with a 20 dollar meter.  So, without a reliable way to measure your battery state...it just isn't possible to figure out what is happening to your battery.

Batteries do break.  In lead acid batteries, the plates are thin and can break, apparently.  I've had DieHards and Interstates fail in less than a year.  So, it happens.  As you go up the battery scale from lead acid to AGM to golf cart batteries, the plates get thicker and the "lead acid" solutions change. 

Tenacity

Denny16 said:

Was the battery charged to start?  Sounds like your TV is not charging the battery.  I would have the battery checked.  The 320 batteries are supplied by the dealer, and are not the best quality to start with in many cases.
cheers

Wait - the TV charges the battery? I am having a similar problem: a brand new battery purchased this morning does not provide power one hour into my Boondocking trip tonight. So here I am on this forum, and your comment raises more questions than answers. How does the TV charge the battery?

Sharon_is_SAM

@Tenacity - you should have a charge wire installed on your TV that connects to the TV 7 pin harness.  That provides the ability to charge the TaB battery when the battery switch is turned on, so you must tow with the battery switch turned on.  If you have a factory tow package, it should include a charge wire.  To check for the presence of a charge wire and an isolation relay:

Disconnect from shorepower and turn off the battery switch.
Connect the TaB 7 pin to the TV.  Crank the engine. Turn on an interior trailer light. If it comes on, you have a charge line. 

Turn off the engine, if the light goes out, you have an isolation relay. If the light stays on, you do not have an isolation relay.

Keep in mind that newer TVs have limited ability to charge the battery and typically it only acts like a trickle charger.  Don’t expect rapid charging and charging a very depleted battery will take many hours of driving.

Tenacity

Sharon_is_SAM said:

…(snipped to save space)…
Connect the TaB 7 pin to the TV.  Crank the engine. Turn on an interior trailer light. If it comes on, you have a charge line. 

Turn off the engine, if the light goes out, you have an isolation relay. If the light stays on, you do not have an isolation relay.

Keep in mind that newer TVs have limited ability to charge the battery and typically it only acts like a trickle charger.  Don’t expect rapid charging and charging a very depleted battery will take many hours of driving.

Thank you!  this answers a lot of questions! It even answers questions I didn’t even know I had! LOL! 

VictoriaP

Tenacity said:

Denny16 said:

Was the battery charged to start?  Sounds like your TV is not charging the battery.  I would have the battery checked.  The 320 batteries are supplied by the dealer, and are not the best quality to start with in many cases.
cheers

Wait - the TV charges the battery? I am having a similar problem: a brand new battery purchased this morning does not provide power one hour into my Boondocking trip tonight. So here I am on this forum, and your comment raises more questions than answers. How does the TV charge the battery?

@Tenacity A couple of things you need to know:

• Brand new batteries are rarely fully charged on purchase. Often they’re at 50% or less if the store doesn’t charge them regularly. They pretty much always need to be fully charged before 1st use, in my experience.
• Giving a very depleted deep cycle battery of average size a full charge can take a day on shore power via the trailer’s converter. An AGM deep cycle can take even longer. Bigger batteries longer still. Unless you have a DC-DC charger installed in your TV setup (and odds are extremely high that you don’t), you simply can’t get enough charge via that route to use the vehicle to replenish an RV battery from the level you’re at now. It would literally take days of driving.
• Solar will do the trick eventually, but will take longer than shore power will, especially if you’ve only got the factory installed panel. Just not enough output. But if that’s your only option, turn the battery disconnect switch to off so the trailer can’t drain the battery, and face the trailer’s solar panel into full sun with an unobstructed view to the south to maximize your solar capture. 

In your shoes, assuming you have a 320 with a single battery, I’d either pull the battery and go to an auto parts store willing to put it on their rapid charger to get it to at least 80%, or I’d take the trailer to a full hookup site for an overnight. If you have a 400, you’ll need to go the full hookup route. (Due to the very depleted state of this battery, using a generator probably isn’t practical unless paired with a rapid charger. Just doesn’t make sense to try and run a genny for 12 hours or more to charge via the converter. Generators are more useful for topping off rather than deep charging.)

Tenacity

This is mostly a commentary, but I have a question at the end, too! 

Hello everybody, thanks for posting this thread!

I have a 2021 T@B 320S Boondock Edge (which includes a solar system) towed by a 2013 Toyota RAV4. But this information applies to everybody, as it relates to refrigerator settings during towing. 

Many of my problems stemmed from the fact that I did not know that I should switch the refrigerator to  some thing other than DC power when I arrive at my destination. 

Things I learned about the refrigerator  settings:

1. Set it to Propane when you are Boondocking (i.e., when you are not connected to the tow vehicle, nor are you connected to shore power.)
2. Set it to Battery power while you are driving.
3. Set it to Electric and connect to shore power (AC) whenever it’s available.
   

Once you are parked, even if you have elected to stay at a hotel for the night, it is necessary to change the refrigerator from DC power to propane (or shore power, if it is available). If you allow the refrigerator to stay on DC power, it will completely drain the T@B‘s battery within a couple of hours. 

Additionally,  it is necessary to disconnect the seven way plug from the tow vehicle, as this plug pulls juice from the car‘s battery. In my situation, it left me with two dead batteries! 

Another consideration is when you stop for more than an hour. Switch the fridge to propane while you are stopped, or just switch it OFF, as nothing is going to spoil in that period of time. 

To ignite the pilot light:  First, be certain that the power-option-dial is set to propane. Second push in the propane-temperature-dial and keep it pushed-in. You can press-and-release the igniter, but HOLD that temperature dial in for another 30 seconds. Watch the red needle move to the right. When you release the dial, if the needle drops back over to the left, the pilot light has not been lit, and you need to begin again. When the needle finally stays over to the right, you have successfully let the pilot light!

The refrigerator, and thus the RV too, must be level (within a few degrees of level) in order for the refrigerator to cool properly on propane. 

We are leading up to a question, here…!

The battery switch on the T@B must be turned to the “on” position in order for the seven-way plug to communicate between the car and the RV.  This communication involves the brakes, and the refrigerator, (and the lights and the water pump should you pull over briefly, and want to use them).

However, I am still not sure about this: once I have arrived at my campsite, and I have disconnected the RV from the tow vehicle, should I turn the battery switch to the “off” position? 

Or does that switch have to stay on… In order to communicate with the solar charging system?

If you made it this far, thanks for reading! It may seem verbose, but all of these details were important for my situation. Take care, y’all!

Tenacity

VictoriaP said:

Tenacity said:

Denny16 said:

Was the battery charged to start?  Sounds like your TV is not charging the battery.  I would have the battery checked.  The 320 batteries are supplied by the dealer, and are not the best quality to start with in many cases.
cheers

Wait - the TV charges the battery? I am having a similar problem: a brand new battery purchased this morning does not provide power one hour into my Boondocking trip tonight. So here I am on this forum, and your comment raises more questions than answers. How does the TV charge the battery?

@Tenacity A couple of things you need to know:

• Brand new batteries are rarely fully charged on purchase. (Snip)
• Giving a very depleted deep cycle battery of average size a full charge can take a day on shore power via the trailer’s converter. (Snip)
• Solar will do the trick eventually, but will take longer than shore power will, especially if you’ve only got the factory installed panel. (Snip)

In your shoes, (snipped to save space) Generators are more useful for topping off rather than deep charging.)

Good information here! I have been on the road so from the time I put the battery in, to the time I had problems I had been driving about five hours. As it turns out, my biggest problem was my failure to change the refrigerator settings! I did not know that  it was necessary to take it off of DC power! (in my case, Boondocking, propane was the way to go.) Additionally, I had my seven way plug connected all night which drained my car battery, too! Fun times! LOL! 

VictoriaP

@Tenacity A couple of things I spotted in your posts…The 2021 320 doesn’t actually have a 3 way fridge; it wasn’t even a purchaseable option. If you’re able to use propane, I’m suspecting you have a 2020 or older model. And if the trailer drained your car battery overnight, you definitely don’t have an isolator on your 12v line to the car. An isolator will keep that from happening.

BUT, I need to point out that the 2013 RAV4 was not designed to tow a Tab. The towing capacity is only 1500 pounds, which is less than the unloaded weight of a 320 Boondock. The loaded weight is usually significantly more. Aside from the safety issues to others on the road with you (which are major), you risk damaging your car simply by towing this trailer. The recommended towing capacity to tow your trailer is 3500 pounds.

As for your most recent question, the battery switch stays ON in camp for the most part. However, if you are trying to charge a badly drained battery from solar or a using clip on fast charger, you can turn the disconnect to off to prevent the parasitic drains of the trailer from robbing more of your power until you can recharge. Turn the switch to off for storing the trailer between trips as well. Factory solar is directly hooked to the battery and is not affected by the disconnect.

And an FYI, many of us with 3 way fridges never use DC at all because it eats through the battery far too fast. I personally prechill the fridge on shore power the night before, add frozen bottles or ice packs to the fridge for travel, then use propane or shore power once I arrive. Alternatively, for longer drives, you can use DC for an hour at a time while driving, switching it off at your first stop, back on at your second, etc. Well chilled food in an unpowered prechilled fridge will keep for at least 4 hours without added ice; with a few ice packs, it should last for pretty much any drive.

Dana

Interesting conversation.  I am new  (2021 Tab 320 cs-s)but have learned this much.....don't use the fridge at all.  It isn't big enough to hold much so I have a cooler along anyway.  I use fridge to store butter (which stayed cold last night in Taylor Canyon, Colorado), bread and stuff like that.  I also never turn the battery switch off.  Solar rejuvenates the battery pretty quick.  

Again, I've been out all of three times but that is my experience.,

pthomas745

@Dana, not using the fridge is one way to save power.  Your solar is recharging pretty quickly...because you are hardly using any battery power at all.  If it works for you....great!

@Tenacity IF you have a 3 way fridge....on 12V (battery power) it uses 16 amps.  It does not cycle on and off...that is a constant 16 amp drain every single hour.  It would use up your 80 amp hour stock battery in....5 hours.  So, check for a battery isolation switch in your vehicle by the method described above.

There is no guarantee that your vehicle can charge your trailer battery.  You must test and measure your own situation.  Every vehicle is different.....and not many vehicles can keep up with a 16 amp drain.

My 100 watt solar panel, on its very best day....can pump out about 6 amps into my battery.  But, those perfect conditions won't last very long.  To put back 40 amp hours into a battery, even at 6 amps, would take more than 6 hours.  At only 4 amps...10 hours....and so on.  Battery charging, by whatever method, takes much longer than people think.  You do have a larger solar setup, which is an advantage.

Tenacity

pthomas745 said:

@Tenacity IF you have a 3 way fridge....on 12V (battery power) it uses 16 amps.  It does not cycle on and off...that is a constant 16 amp drain every single hour.  It would use up your 80 amp hour stock battery in....5 hours.  So, check for a battery isolation switch in your vehicle by the method described above.

There is no guarantee that your vehicle can charge your trailer battery.  You must test and measure your own situation.  Every vehicle is different.....and not many vehicles can keep up with a 16 amp drain.

My 100 watt solar panel, on its very best day....can pump out about 6 amps into my battery.  But, those perfect conditions won't last very long.  To put back 40 amp hours into a battery, even at 6 amps, would take more than 6 hours.  At only 4 amps...10 hours....and so on.  Battery charging, by whatever method, takes much longer than people think.  You do have a larger solar setup, which is an advantage.

Thanks for this very detailed information! Yes, I am learning how to chill it when I can, and just turn it off on the road. 

Tenacity

VictoriaP said:

@Tenacity A couple of things I spotted in your posts…The 2021 320 doesn’t actually have a 3 way fridge; it wasn’t even a purchaseable option. If you’re able to use propane, I’m suspecting you have a 2020 or older model. And if the trailer drained your car battery overnight, you definitely don’t have an isolator on your 12v line to the car. An isolator will keep that from happening.

BUT, I need to point out that the 2013 RAV4 was not designed to tow a Tab. The towing capacity is only 1500 pounds, which is less than the unloaded weight of a 320 Boondock. The loaded weight is usually significantly more. Aside from the safety issues to others on the road with you (which are major), you risk damaging your car simply by towing this trailer. The recommended towing capacity to tow your trailer is 3500 pounds.

As for your most recent question, the battery switch stays ON in camp for the most part. However, if you are trying to charge a badly drained battery from solar or a using clip on fast charger, you can turn the disconnect to off to prevent the parasitic drains of the trailer from robbing more of your power until you can recharge. Turn the switch to off for storing the trailer between trips as well. Factory solar is directly hooked to the battery and is not affected by the disconnect.

And an FYI, many of us with 3 way fridges never use DC at all because it eats through the battery far too fast. I personally prechill the fridge on shore power the night before, add frozen bottles or ice packs to the fridge for travel, then use propane or shore power once I arrive. Alternatively, for longer drives, you can use DC for an hour at a time while driving, switching it off at your first stop, back on at your second, etc. Well chilled food in an unpowered prechilled fridge will keep for at least 4 hours without added ice; with a few ice packs, it should last for pretty much any drive.

Thank you for this detailed information! You have given me a few things to think about and I cannot address all of the answers here, but I do appreciate the time you spent on this reply! 

Denny16

You can find the trailer’s build date (month/yr) on the nüCamp Vin number sticker on the side of the trailer.
 Cheers 

GregChris

I purchased my 320s bd used, but it was less than a year old. The Interstate battery it came with was shot. The person at autozone thinks it was completely ignored, not taken out during winterization, put on a maintenance charger. or levels checked. I needed a battery right away so didn't research much. I should have bought a 100 amp/hour and an bigger box, but I just replaced it with the same size. It struggles to make it through the night with nothing but the fridge on while boondocking. Oh well, these lead acid batteries only last 3 years, so I can upgrade then.

pthomas745

@GregChris you would be surprised (or maybe not) about how many people make mistakes with their "first battery" and then wind up with an "AutozoneWalmartLocal" hybrid battery.  So, don't feel bad.  The good news is, there is really no reason to wait.  If you don't mind lugging that Autozone battery around, you can easily use it as a "spare" or extra battery, and increase your capacity easily.  There are a few ways to do this with simple electrical parts.  So, go buy that 100 ah AGM, add the Autozone battery as a "portable spare" when you think you might need it, and you can have about 90 usable amp hours in a flash.  All the smart people in this thread helped me a lot.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/7008/anyone-carry-a-spare-battery/p1

GregChris

Thanks for the info. I did ask about a possible agm upgrade at a local rv dealer when I replaced the battery. The salesman convinced me to just replace the battery with same that came out of the rv for 2 reasons, he didn't have any agms in stock and couldn't get one before I needed it, and the added expense wasn't worth it. It would not last any longer(in years) and didn't have any more reserve power. I ended up getting a true marine battery from Autozone (not a hybrid), but the az salesman told me the same info about flooded cells vs agm. From what I'm reading here, both were wrong. I will be connected to shore power on our trip in Feb. so I will probably look into replacing it with a 100amp/hr later in the spring. Does the agm have any special charge requirements? The standard 320s bd system will handle it?  

CharlieRN

Probably not something the OP or others with battery issues commenting in this thread are interested in, but Battle Born has a sale on for their 100 aH batteries. These are "blemished", meaning they have a cosmetic defect, but are fully functional and come with the standard 10 year warranty. Even at the sale price, they are still pretty costly, but have a substantially lower life-cycle cost than lead-acid batterie, along with generally superior performance.

pthomas745

@GregChris Good for you for seeing through the dealer and Autozone bafflegab.  Dealers don't want to fuss with batteries, and, like Autozone, just want to clear out the ones they have in stock.  They aren't interested..period. 

An AGM/lead acid battery is basically the same "chemistry". The design of an AGM makes it spillproof, etc.  Check the first couple of paragraphs from "Battery University" here. 

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-201a-absorbent-glass-mat-agm

The converter in the trailer has no issues with AGM's.

GregChris

Thanks

GigHarborTom

My bride tells me, that a RAV4 Adventure has greater towing capacity, 3500. We were shopping new rigs a couple months ago, and because we missed our former, did go back to a 4Runner.