Echo Brake Controller and Grabby Brakes Question

RHW

We have a 2021 T@B 320 S Boondock and are using the Curt Echo wireless brake controller. I am not new to towing but new to using an electric brake controller.

At slow speeds (<25 MPH) when I apply the brakes, the trailer brakes apply fully. This lurches the TV forward. I was expecting a more smooth application of the trailer brakes. I have tried adjusting the settings using the phone app and there is no appreciable change. Is this normal? If not, any idea of the cause and how to resolve it?

RMo

i had a similar issue with my T@B 400 and the AuTowBrake controller.  I went thru the set up steps 3 times and the 3rd was a charm.  None of this may be new info but etrailer has some instructions that might help https://www.etrailer.com/question-334179.html.  Good luck,

Montanatabadventures

I had a similar issue with my 2020 Tab S last summer. The Echo brake controller and brakes worked fine for several hundred miles of towing then one day the trailer brakes started grabbing hard enough to lock up a wheel when applied. It took me awhile to figure out what the issue was and I suspected it was the brake controller but it turned out to be the trailer brakes. The driver side brake was out of adjustment and locking up that wheel. I adjusted the brake and since then the brakes have worked fine. I spoke with a tech at Dexter Axle Company and he indicated it was fairly common for new brakes to need adjusting. I tested my brakes in a dirt parking lot and saw where on wheel would lock up and skid. It took several adjustments of the brakes to get them balanced. I also run my Echo brake controller on the least sensitive settings and it works well. Let me know if you have any questions and I hope you get your issue resolved.

DougH

@RHW I had a Tekonsha P3 hard-wired brake controller and never ever noticed grabbiness, but often do have it on the Echo wireless unit.  It acts like it doesn't have 100 different current values to send to the camper brakes, but only has 10 possible values... so seems jerky at low speeds. And it also acts like its built-in accelerometers and control logic don't integrate properly with threshold cutoffs and thus have no idea whether you're traveling 10mph or 70mph. So instead gains associated with a finely-tuned PID controller, it behaves like it only uses instantaneous deacceleration value and the duration of brake application... which if true explains the crudeness of the brake management.

I read that if you hook the Curt Echo in the right order it calibrates better, but frequently I just have to set the gain all the way down to 5 or 10 to avoid jerkiness when in a campground or driving around town... then back up to 50 or 60 out on the highway.  Adjusting the sensitivity up or down didn't make a huge change for me in the <20mph towing.

Just sadly a consequence of the convenience and $ of the Curt Echo I suppose.

YanniLazarus

My Echo sits on a shelf in my basement.   I regret I used it for a year. 

pthomas745

If informal tracking of "FB complaints by owners about brake controllers" the Echo is very much in the lead.  (Some have been brake adjustment issues.)

rhyno

+1 for hard-wired brake controllers. We researched the echo but ruled it out as an option after seeing mixed reviews. We have a Redarc Liberty and have been really happy with it.

ezusmanis

I found that the brakes on the trailer must be adjusted well for the echo to work well. I adjust the trailer brakes until the tire cannot be turned - then back it off until I can get a full revolution of the tire. With this adjustment, the echo works well. 

Trailpixie

I had the same problem with a tekonsha wireless brake controller.

TomCanada

I just noticed the same issue on our Tab 400 + Echo.  First few trips were fine, but now when applying brakes at slow speeds, they are very grabby and cause a bit of a jerk.  I hesitate to start playing with brake adjustments and will probably live with the jerkiness for now - maybe lower the gain around campgrounds as some have suggested.  If anyone figures out a better solution please share!

ScottG

FWIW, I experienced the same thing early on with my cheap wired controller. It was always when coming slowly to a stop--particularly on a slight downward incline--when it happened. It was aggravating and definitely not something I was inclined to live with.

After adjusting the brakes and considerable fiddling and experimentation with the controller adjustments, the problem went away for good. I have a reasonably substantial tow vehicle so I keep the brakes dialed in pretty low, but they do work. 

mntrails

I had a similar exerperience with the Echo - worked good to start, then got grabby.  I went through last season with them that way, then I switched to a Redarc Tow Pro Elite for this and other reasons (orientation, the 4Runner 7 pin points down at an angle)... the Redarc is absolutely smooth and more importantly, when I check the T@B drums, they're warm but not hot.  With the Echo, they'd be really hot after a trip through town at low speeds.  Honestly, the smoothness of the wired controller has made towing a lot more enjoyable - with the Echo, I was frequently watching the phone display to see how much braking was being applied and subconciously matching that to the clunks of the hitch receiver and feel of the trailer brakes.  Now everything just stops together nice and smooth.

Referring to the OP's question though, the brakes will get applied fully as indicated by the orange circle whipping around the phone display to 100%,  if the Echo isn't initialized correctly.  It's absolutely important for the Echo electronics to initialize with the Tow Vehicle running and the T@B not connected. For example, the Echo can't be unplugged from the TV and left attached to the T@B, then replugged. Here's a summary of the proper sequence:

1) Start the Tow Vehicle, open the phone app, and plug in the Echo without the trailer connected - you should see the blue blinking LED, then the Blue solid LED once it syncs with the phone app. 
2) Plug in the T@B, the LED should fast blink yellow (calibration phase), then end up at solid green - ready to tow.

Once initialized, the Tow Vehicle can be stopped and started during normal travel but once the Echo is unplugged, the above sequence had to be followed for things to work right... at least for me.  Good luck!

Denny16

That’s the sequence recommended by Kurt for the Echo, which has worked fine for me, no grabbing or over applied trailer brake issues either.  That said, at some point I am going to install the new Jeep Gladiator OEM brake controller, which is similar to the Redarc Tow Pro/
cheers

mreric

one important thing,   i was having the same issue...  but it was user error.    first is turn on the TV.   then plug in the controller.  wait for it to calibrate.   then connect to the app.  after that plug the trailer in.   this way the brakes works well.   but you must check for brake adjustment anyways. 

TomCanada

mreric said:

one important thing,   i was having the same issue...  but it was user error.    first is turn on the TV.   then plug in the controller.  wait for it to calibrate.   then connect to the app.  after that plug the trailer in.   this way the brakes works well.   but you must check for brake adjustment anyways. 

Hmm - interesting.. I always make sure the Echo is plugged into the vehicle first, and then to trailer second, but I have two small differences:

- I plug into TV, but I don't launch app yet.  I plug in trailer, *then* I launch the app, and when I'm solid green I know I'm good.
- I might do the above with the car off - because I still get power to the 7-way connector.  Once sync'd and I'm ready to go, I start the car and off I go.

Could one of the above be causing my grabby brakes issue?  I wouldn't suspect a phone sync would be required to ensure a proper calibration before the trailer is attached.  And I would expect calibration performed with TV off should persist after I start the TV.  But now I'm wondering if I follow the exact steps @mreric listed if I might get around this.  Hoping to get out this coming weekend so will try it out!

nmdream

Have brakes adjusted so you don't have drag. As they heat up the expansion changes the brakes to cause more surface contact. Not noticeable until you apply brakes. I have an echo, I love it. I do a few adjustments on the controller before starting a trip. Short 5 mile run usually enough to get them warmed up. 
Set them for a comfortable grab at the driveway, back up and forward to confirm, take it out on a drive and continually check the "grab" level for your comfort. Mine did the same and it took some practice to set it up for my driving style. I prefer a minor lag before the brakes grab so it will not hammer the TV in flat road and around town. Setting up the sensitivity and the amount of braking force should be done individually. So you can get used to which control satisfies your immediate need. Presets are great too. Mountains are a pain so setting up a stronger brake is a must. No one wants to pushed into a downhill curve. If you can start off with a simple cold rotation and see if one feels tighter ( slows faster) while being spun while elevated. Mine was almost new and had a lot of drag on one wheel. Hope it helps. FYI The Echo has been working great, every problem I had was related the trailer, or me. Operator error. 

markhanks

Same,same, same!  I had great results with Echo for 600 miles with new T@b then grabbiness.  After reading these comments I'm def going to jack up the unit and adjust the brakes.  I’ve just lost confidence in the Echo though,  It seems very unpredictable while for this application we all very much want predictable.  I don’t think im going to stick with it.  Looking at the Tekonsha RF model…but after I adjust brakes.  

TomCanada

Nothing I did seemed to help but I didn't try any brake adjustments. Let us know what you find!

[Deleted User]

I used Echo for one season then it started the grabbing too. I called Echo tech support and it appeared my issue was the hooking up pairing sequence but it still did it even after I changed the paring sequence. It's in my basement too and I'm now using the Tekonsha P3. I love it.  Very reliable.  I originally had to go with the Echo because I bought a new model/body change year Jeep and no one made a wiring harness for it when it first came out so had to use the Echo. So glad I'm able to use the P3 now.  

tphaggerty

I also started with an Echo. And it has been replaced with a hard wired Curt due to grabbiness and locking up. We never really found the “right” way to get it to work consistently. When it would start grabbing, I would just unplug everything and replug until it would work. It often took several tries. On ours, you could tell when it was going to grab as the brake force indicator on the app would immediately go to full or close to full with just light pressure on the brake. While I was fine with it when I was driving, I never felt confident it would work right when my wife or son drove.

When I spoke with Curt tech support, they said it shouldn’t be happening, they actually replaced our original unit and had us send it back for testing, unfortunately, the replacement unit did the same thing. It now sits on my desk. Happy to donate it if someone would like it !! 

I actually can’t believe they still sell it…

markhanks

I did the brake adjustment and thanks to this forum and the many great explanations and photo's it really wasn't to bad.  So thanks forum contributors.  I now have the adjustment tool in my trailer tool kit and know how to adjust.  My trailer's put away so won't be able to test it...but when I do it won't be with the ECHO.

Sharon_is_SAM

The other issue with the Echo unit as noted over on the TaG forum is that turning on your TV hazard lights will activate the brakes.  Apparently there is a setting on the Curt app that you need to engage to prevent this from happening.

Denny16

Yes, yes there is, just tap the button, and the flashers/emergency parking lights will not activate the brakes.  I have not had any issues with my Exho brake controller.
cheers

ColoradoSun

My experience with the Echo brake controller was fine for six months. Then it started to grab and the only adjustment that made it stop was turning down the sensitivity to zero which meant no trailer brakes. The company sent me a replacement and the result was the same. Very strange. Finally gave up and had a new wired unit installed. No problems since.

Mickerly

We use the Echo also. For several months it didn't work. Calling Curt was very informative. I deleted all the app, history, and blu-tooth link from my phone and started over with a clean sheet. When you load the app, give it permission to use your phone's position. When you first turn on the Echo unit, give it permission to use your phone's position. Then, when using the unit, you have to have position turned on.

Apparently, it uses you position to determine speed. Yes, this is not in the instruction book. Haven't had any problems since.

Earlier comments hit on an important point. The effectiveness of braking is dependent on the brakes being adjusted so both brakes apply equally.

TomCanada

Mickerly said:

We use the Echo also. For several months it didn't work. Calling Curt was very informative. I deleted all the app, history, and blu-tooth link from my phone and started over with a clean sheet. When you load the app, give it permission to use your phone's position. When you first turn on the Echo unit, give it permission to use your phone's position. Then, when using the unit, you have to have position turned on.

Apparently, it uses you position to determine speed. Yes, this is not in the instruction book. Haven't had any problems since.

Earlier comments hit on an important point. The effectiveness of braking is dependent on the brakes being adjusted so both brakes apply equally.

This both does and doesn't make sense to me.  It doesn't make sense because the controller doesn't require the phone Bluetooth connection to be active in order to operate - it's  only needed to change parameters, view brake status, or apply the brakes manually.  More than half the time I'm driving, I have connection issues with the Echo but I know it's working because I can feel it grab when I apply the tow vehicle's brakes.

That said - maybe that's where things start to make sense?  *If* the controller is actually using the speed of the vehicle as an input to its brake strength calculation, then it stands to reason if the connection is broken (or the speed isn't properly transmitted due to phone not giving location permissions to the app), the controller might assume "I don't know how fast I'm going, so I'm going to assume I'm going really, really fast, and apply the brakes accordingly".  This would be a terrible algorithm, since the internal gyro/accelerometer of the controller is what's supposed to tell it how hard to brake, *not* the speed of the vehicle.  But it's possible - if this is true, it could explain my case (due to poor connection with phone) as well as other cases (if location permissions are not given to the app).  Can anyone else confirm?  My Tab is in winter mode and not moving for a few months - but if someone else wants to give this a try, let us know what you find out! 

I've got a new TV and plan on ditching the Echo and going with a Tekonsha hard-wire, but if we can get Echo behaving, perhaps I'll save a few bucks and give it another go..

Mickerly

I'm just offering what was presented by the Curt help person. As long as you stay linked and everything has access to the phone's position, it appears to work.

I will add, if something happens, you moved too far from the rig on a stop, etc. to brake the link, it doesn't work consistently. It supposed to continue on the last settings, but sometimes odd things happen. For consistent operation, we do the sync dance at every fuel and food stop.

Sprocket

I have the curt Echo brake controller as well. It works great at high speeds, but it is super grabby when I drive slow through towns or parking lots.  I am careful to use the correct pairing after each stop.  My version of the app does not request location services and it has no way to turn those on.  

  Both settings are almost as low as I can go at level 2. 

I have two questions.
1) when I am just driving slow through a town, is it safe to just turn the thing down to zero?
2) I have a trip into the mountains coming up, I am very worried that it will be grabby on the descent.  Any sense as to whether it will behave more like it does on the highway vs town when I am in the mountains?  I have no way to test this out before the actual trip.  Kinda worried about grabby brakes on steep twisty roads. 

I am getting my brake adjustment checked, and I can report back after that.  

hustoncs

We have the Echo brake controller and had the same problem until we did the following procedure and now it works great!

Here is the procedure Note: we needed to decrease the max output

Curt has a recommended setup procedure outlined for the Curt Echo part # C51180 that is outlined in their install instructions for this controller but since not all trailer brakes apply the same way there isn't a standard setting you can use that will be ideal from the get-go. Here's how Curt recommends you set this controller up:

Starting with the output adjustment, drive forward on a dry and level paved or concrete surface. At approximately 25 mph, apply the vehicle's brakes. If trailer braking is insufficient, increase the max output setting in the brake control application. If the trailer brakes lock up, decrease the max output. Repeat this process until stops are firm, just short of lock up.

Once the output is set, adjust the sensitivity by driving forward at approximately 25 mph and press the brake pedal. The vehicle and trailer should make a smooth stop. If the stop seems slow and more aggressive braking is desired, increase the sensitivity level through the brake control application. If the stop seems too aggressive, decrease the sensitivity level in the application.

Make several stops at various speeds and adjust the sensitivity until stops are smooth and firm. Slight adjustment to the output control may also be desirable.

TomCanada

@hustoncs many of us have been through that process numerous times and still have problems.  If it's working for you that's fantastic, though for many of the rest of us we are still trying to figure this out as configuring the settings in the manner described doesn't yield any positive results.  From the app reviews on the Google/Android Play store, this sounds like an extremely common problem, and one which Curt has does a terrible job addressing - they've done basically squat. 

Best guess I have is if we don't maintain a constant connection between phone and controller, the controller will decide to go full strength with every subsequent application if the brakes.  Which is fine at higher speeds because it's smoother, but becomes extremely jarring below around 30-40mph.  And worst at crawling speeds.  Notice the manual says the APP doesn't need to stay on; however, it doesn't say anything about BLUETOOTH needing to remain connected even when the app is exited, and that's where I suspect the issue lies.  This also aligns with the fact that early in any given trip, the brake engagement is typically fine, and it's only a bit later it starts getting grabby at low speeds (even with dials turned down to min for sensitivity and strength).  That tells me that early on when the Bluetooth connection is still solid, everything is happy, but later when I lose Bluetooth (and it happens a lot, in both my tow vehicles) the grabbiness begins.  Correlation for sure.  Now trying to figure out causation. @Mickerly 's observation of moving away from the rig (disconnecting) being linked to this problem is also another data point confirming this hypothesis.

We have a trip planned in a couple of weeks.  I plan on using the app on an old phone (or maybe even my main phone) and leaving it in the trunk very close to the hitch to maintain a reliable connection.  If the problem goes away, I think we have our smoking gun.

In the meantime if anyone wants to beat me to the punch with that experiment I welcome it and hope you can share your results here!

Denny16

This is the procedure I followed with the Curt Echo, and have no had any issues with grabby brakes.  I think this issue is caused by having either too high an output setting, which sets up for the trailer weight (this would not be noticeable at higher highway speeds or too high a sensitivity setting, which adjusts the trailer braking in relation to the TV brakes, so the trailer brakes set a little faster, or a little bit of both.  Too high a sensitivity setting with the trailer brakes engaging too soon, could result is a grabby brake feeling as the trailer try’s to stop the rig too fast.
 Cheers