Ryobi-Baja 900/700W Generator

AnOldUR

I purchased a Baja 900/700W generator solely for the purpose of battery charging when solar isn't enough to get the job done. The generator came today. It starts and runs well and the noise level is not too bad, but I'm having problems getting it to work with my 320S T@B. My on-board Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C is displaying an E2 error, open ground. Appliances plugged directly into the generator work fine. Does anyone have experience with this or other generators while using an EMS?

VictoriaP

@AnOldUR Is that EMS a permanent install or a portable? There’s a known issue with the open ground of any portable generator and EMS units. Typically people with permanent install EMS units use a neutral ground bonding plug in one of the genny’s outlets to get around this, however, the Ryobi only has one 110v outlet. If the Baja is the same on that score, not sure what the solution is. (I use a plug in EMS, so I just remove that from the equation when using the generator.)

Neutral plug: https://www.amazon.com/Southwire-Company-LLC-44400-Generator/dp/B07F4R7BDL

Reference article with more details: https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electricity-jam-oper-ground-generator/

N7SHG_Ham

Yes, need to either bypass the EMS or get a N-G bonding plug. Mine is a pass through, so it plugs to generator or shore ford plugs to the plug. Mine is a twist lock type plugbso will not work with a standard outlet.

If hardwired EMSz there should be a bypass switch and if course if portable, just don't use it.

AnOldUR

First off, thanks @VictoriaP & @N7SHG_Ham. I'll sleep a little better tonight knowing that I don't have to deal with attempting to return the generator to Home Depot tomorrow. Using the bypass switch on my EMS I was able to get the generator to power my T@B. There were some hoops to jump through, but it worked.

My main problem is that I was using a small in-line Progressive Industries surge protector along with the EMS permanently mounted in the trailer. I had tried using the bypass on the built in EMS, but for some reason, with the portable surge protector in line it would make the generator stall. That made me think there was something seriously wrong and that I shouldn't use the bypass. With the in-line surge protector being used, the EMS would display an E4 (low voltage) error. With it removed I got the E2, open ground error but never thought to try it with both the in-line surge protector removed and the EMS bypassed. Again, thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Now I need to see if a neutral-ground bonding plug will allow me to not bypass the EMS. I'm guessing that it will be fooled into not seeing the open ground, but will still give me the other protections that the EMS provides. The Baja does only have one outlet, but couldn't I use a three outlet extender to have a place to plug the neutral-ground bonding plug?

Viajero

Yes 

[Deleted User]

Do you think this would work to charge lithium batteries in a 400? It would have to be via the big 30amp power cord and 15amp adapter since batteries arent accessible. Would that long cord degrade the power making it to the batteries? I do already have that ground plug for my gas Gen but I never needed it. I was able to plug my 2019 400 direct into my "Honda like" Gen without needing the ground plug. 

[Deleted User]

What about this one?  

Pulsar 2,200W Portable Dual Fuel Quiet Inverter Generator with USB Outlet & Parallel Capability, CARB Compliant, PG2200BiS https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07J5HD8L9/ref=cm_sw_r_awdo_navT_g_7AGTEFPRY1BZ6092PSZZ

Grumpy_G

@TabbyShack Yes the Baja generator can charge the batteries in your 400. The converter is a 35A model AFAIK which comes out to sub 500W depending on the charging voltage. That translates to around 5A on the 120V side (there are some losses in the converter) which is causing negligible voltage drop in the 30A cable. 

AnOldUR

I spent too much time researching neutral-ground bonding plugs. Progressive Industries actually sold one but it's no longer available (safety/lawsuit issue?). I've also seen videos for making homemade versions, but  since the Baja only has one input, could I remove the panel and add a jumper wire between the neutral and ground to permanently create the bonded condition? Or I guess the better question is should I?

(I sent and email to Progressive Industries asking about this, but probably won't hear back until Monday at the earliest.) 

CrabTab

@AnOldUR homemade neutral ground bonding plug did effectively clear the error code through my EMS when plugging in through the 30A shore power connector. Your idea of a permanent jumper may be a solution. Although I've no certification to tell you if you should

Other possible solutions to what I understand to be your need/issue:

A. Have you considered using a battery charger going straight to the battery instead of charging through the converter? If your sole purpose of the generator is to recharge the battery, this should work.

B. Use a portable EMS at shore power instead of the built-in version and don't use the EMS with the generator. This would allow your generator to charge the entire TAB through 30A connection.

C. Get a different generator, w/ two plugs.

D. There was some theoretical discussion some time ago relating to this issue and potentially using a ground wire between the generator frame and the T@B frame. I didn't explore it further since the neutral bonding plug cured the issue for me.

I know I didn't give you an answer that is suitable, just trying to do some 'free form brainstorming' to make anyone's mind reading this come up with a solution...

Dutch061

If you have the remote display with your EMS, simply flip the switch to bypass. I have the Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C with the remote display and bought the unit with remote display to allow this to be easy. We boondock a lot, so charging via a generator is fairly common and I like the KISS method. It is much easier to explain to my wife to move the switch rather than "plug this in" or why.

Brad

AnOldUR

@CrabTab brainstorming is exactly what I need right now.

A. Earlier @VictoriaP brought up using a NOCO charger. That is something I'll consider if I can't get it to work independently.

B. I have a Progressive Industries in-line surge protector, but for some unknown reason with the onboard EMS bypassed it would cause the generator to shut down.

C. The main reason I'm trying to make this small generator work is for weight and storage. There are very few out there that compare to the Baja in this respect.

D. There's a wing nut on the generator for grounding. I tried running a wire from there to the frame of the trailer, but it did not help.

Update. I jumped the ground and neutral inside the Baja with some success. Before when I used a plug tester on the generator it gave strange results. The two amber lights were lit, but the red one had a faint glow. Strange because that was not a condition listed on the expected results. With the jumper installed, it shows as being wired correctly. Even so, the on-board EMS won't allow current to pass through. It displays E0 for no faults, but also displays PE4 indicating that there was a previous low voltage situation even though it's reading 120V.

The other strange thing is that with the jumper installed and the EMS bypassed, now the inline surge protector doesn't shut down the generator. At this point, I'm totally confused, but happy to have a working solution. I'd much rather find a way to use the EMS, so if anyone has any ideas please let me know.

Today's my wife's birthday, so I have to stop playing with this, but up next will be a test to see how efficiently the Baja charges batteries.

 

AnOldUR

Dutch061 said:

It is much easier to explain to my wife to move the switch rather than "plug this in" or why.

I agree. With the neutral-ground bonding wired internally it's one less thing to forget.

Dutch061

@AnOldUR, the small generator will not be the limiting factor in charging the batteries. It will be directly related to location of Power Distribution Center (PDC), batteries, and the gauge of wiring in between if you are using the WFCO Converter factory installed. 

Example: on our 2020 400 BDL with the WFCO Converter, I could barely get 20 Amps no matter how dead the batteries were. This is caused by the 3 factors I mentioned above which creates resistance in the charging circuit and the Converter selecting the inappropriate mode of charging.

Brad

P.S. Happy birthday to your wife!

AnOldUR

Dutch061 said:

P.S. Happy birthday to your wife!

She said, "thank you". We spent a beautify day at on outdoor museum with our daughter and grand kids. Heading out for dinner soon.

It looks like nuCamp ran 10 AWG between the WFCO and the battery. I'd guess around six to eight feet total counting what's beyond the cut-off switch. At this distance do you think the voltage drop will mess with the charging mode? I ran the fan in the trailer all day hoping to drain the batteries. Didn't draw down much. I'll run the fridge over night and try again tomorrow.

Back to the Baja, I will be fueling it with a 5lb tank instead of the 1lb, so I added a quick disconnect. The hose that they provide for full size tanks is way too short and clumsy to connect. Edit to add that this is the same disconnect that I use on my Blackstone Griddle. The only difference is that the Blackstone needs a low pressure regulator.

Dutch061

The inherent problem with most campers is the WFCO Converter location in relationship to the batteries, and the gauge of wire used. This prevents the Converter from being able to properly charge the batteries.

Example, in our 2020 400 BDL with the OEM AGM Batteries, it would take 24 to 36 hours to fully charge them. This is caused by the resistance in the charging circuit wiring, which restricts the amperage flow while raising the voltage at the same time. This causes the WFCO to move to the Absorption Rate of Charge instead of using the Bulk Mode.

By installing a PD9260CV under the bed (with a pendant), I could charge the AGM Batteries in less than 3 hours if they were nearly dead. I continued to use the PD9260CV after installing 2 x 100 Ah BB Lithium. However, when I added another 200 Ah, I changed the Converter again to a PD9160ALV. I changed it because the forced "Boost Mode" on the PD9260CV times out after 4 hours. 4 Hours may not be enough time to fully charge 400 Ah and I don't like to babysit things.

NOTE: If you typically camp with shore power available, none of this really matters for your use.

Brad

[Deleted User]

I was reading the reviews on the Baha at Home Depot. There are only 18 one star reviews but they are really bad.  They were consistent in saying it doesn't last and is hard to start.   I'm seeing the same kind of bad reviews for champion and pulsar too. Maybe gens that use propane are all hard to start?

dragonsdofly

Folks, we have the Ryobi 900/700 propane inverter generator since July 2019. It starts with one pull, runs 30+ hrs on a single 20 lb propane tank and has hundreds of hrs run time on it since we got it. We used it to power tools, run fans and various tasks while renovating a 30 ft tow behind travel trailer. It traveled with us in our t@b for nearly 2 months in 2019, providing the little extra power to watch a movie while boondocking. I don't know about the Baja, but it does appear to be virtually identical to the Ryobi. Our Ryobi is reliable and a little workhorse. I don't know about bad reviews on it or the twin Baja, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents about actual use in the last 2½ years. -Denise

AnOldUR

Like you @TabbyShack, I read the bad reviews first and did have some concern, but since it's in a class without a lot of choices I tried to convince myself that most of it was probably user related problems. Reading @dragonsdofly post gives me more confidence. With all the start and stop testing I've done so far, there's probably a couple of hours on it. Not enough to really judge it, but it's started easy and run smoothly so far. Had to chuckle at the guy whose complaint was that it wouldn't run his 13A power tool. Guess math wasn't his strong point.  

[Deleted User]

I decided to read the good reviews and as you said it appears to be user error on start up technique. It sounds like people were flooding the engine with propane. 

AnOldUR

Ran a test of sorts today. Hoping someone can decipher anything useful from it. I ran the fridge for two days to drain the battery a bit and then shut the battery switch and let it rest for a half hour. At this point the Victron app read 12.62V. After that I ran the Baja for two hours attached to the 30 amp power plug with the battery switch on. Then I shut off the battery switch and let it rest for another 30 minutes. This time the Victron read 12.94V.

Is there anyway to figure out the Ah gain from that .32V raise over two hours?

edit to add, this is charging two 125Ah Vmax batteries.

VictoriaP

FWIW, I ran a test recently using the SmartShunt. I switched off charging my battery and it took well over a day for it to settle (105 ah AGM). I was checking it every few hours, and it would creep down a little more each time. Once it settled, I ran the trailer up and down the driveway using the Purpleline mover while monitoring the shunt (which, holy cow, on the steepest ten feet of my driveway, that poor thing was pulling so much power!). Ran the battery down 5% per the SmartShunt. Parked the trailer again, with battery shut off, no solar and no 120v hookup. Came back to check a few hours later, and it read 100% again.

Which is to say I’m not sure 30 minutes rest either after charging or after usage is giving you any useful data. The battery needs longer to rest if you’re after accurate results.

AnOldUR

Interesting @VictoriaP. Looks like I burned two hours of propane for nothing. At least it gave me the chance to break it in and change the oil before leaving on our next trip.

VictoriaP

@AnOldUR Yeah, I was pretty surprised it took so long to settle. I don’t actually think I used zero power to move the trailer, but given the way the battery bounced back, clearly I used less than the 4+ ah the shunt measured as depleted before the battery had a chance to rest. Likewise, when I take the battery off the charger (or converter) and it reads over 13 volts for the next 12 hours+, I now know from personal experience that’s not actually a valid reading.

Kind of exasperating, really. I’ll be very interested to see what happens with both your experiments and mine.

AnOldUR

VictoriaP said:

... when I take the battery off the charger (or converter) and it reads over 13 volts for the next 12 hours+, I now know from personal experience that’s not actually a valid reading...

I had read that a full rest was 24 hours. My logic in doing it this way was that since the rest before charging was the same length as the rest after charging, the difference between the two voltage reading would be consistent with longer rest. (Even though the actual numbers would not be accurate.) I thought it might be a shortcut, but after seeing your results, I should repeat the experiment with a full rest.

AnOldUR

What might be a stupid question. Could a NOCO Genius5 be plugged into a generator and the 12V output be wired into an SAE solar port that has a Victron 15amp controller between the port and the battery? If so, would there be any advantage to charging this was compared to using the trailers converter?

Dutch061

@AnOldUR

If you look at the manual for the MPPT75/15 Solar Charge Controller, it clearly states as follows under section 3.3

● The controller will operate only if the PV voltage exceeds battery voltage (Vbat).
● PV voltage must exceed Vbat + 5V for the controller to start. Thereafter minimum PV voltage is Vbat + 1V.

The answer is NO, it will not work. It will not damage anything, but it will never charge either because you will not exceed the battery voltage by 5 volts for the MPPT to turn on. 

As far as advantages of using a stand-alone charger VS the OEM converter, it comes back to goals. Ask yourself these questions to help guide you to the best solution for your needs.

How do you typically camp, with or without shore power?

Do you have a compressor 12-volt refrigerator or a 3-way refrigerator? 

How many Ah of batteries do you have, are they SLA, AGM, or Lithium?

Does your TV charge the batteries as you drive?

If so, how many amps are going to the camper? 

If you camp without shore power, how long do you want to run your generator to charge the batteries? 

How many days at a time do you typically camp without shore power?

How many days can you go without charging your batteries?

Do you have a Smart Shunt (BMV-712 or similar)? 

Brad

AnOldUR

You said to ask myself, but I'll answer out loud in case there are any comments to my answers.

How do you typically camp, with or without shore power?
About a 50/50 mix with dry camping 3+ days at a time.

Do you have a compressor 12-volt refrigerator or a 3-way refrigerator?
Compressor 12V that uses about 30Ah per day. That along with my other 12V accessories probably get to 40Ah per day tops.

How many Ah of batteries do you have, are they SLA, AGM, or Lithium?
Two 125Ah AGM's

Does your TV charge the batteries as you drive? If so, how many amps are going to the camper?
It does, but I'm not sure how many amps the Jeep provides.

If you camp without shore power, how long do you want to run your generator to charge the batteries?
Given the choice, I don't want to run it at all. Purchased it for when solar won't keep up. My thought was that going directly to the battery with a charger (not using the T@B's converter) might be faster?

How many days at a time do you typically camp without shore power?
Could be one day to a week or more. (Have an Alaska trip planned.) Trying to be prepared for any situation.

How many days can you go without charging your batteries?
No more than three when solar isn't available.

I had read the "PV voltage must exceed Vbat + 5V for the controller to start" back when I was researching controllers, but it had slipped from my aging brain. Thanks for the reminder. I did install a cigarette lighter port in my box to attach an electric chest cooler to. It goes directly to the battery. I just saw that NOCO has an adapter for charging through one of these, so that's another option. 

Dutch061

So, I am guessing that you don't have a smart shunt? If not, this could provide you with some very valuable information.

However, let's do some quick calculations based on your numbers.

1. If you are truly using 40 Ah per 24 hours, to recover that with a 5 Amp charger will take 8 hours if there was no further draw. However, you are going to continue to power all things 12 VDC at the rate of 1.66 Amps per hour (40 Amps divided by 24) the net charge rate becomes 3.44 Amps, and it would take more than 12 hours with a 5 Amp charger to recover 1 day (40 Ah) of use. 

2. How does this compare to the output of the 35 Amp converter (I suspect that is what is in your WFCO), I can't answer because I am not positive (but I am pretty sure) that the OEM never goes into the Bulk Mode due to the resistance. Instead, it is likely going directly to the Absorption mode which is why it takes 24 to 36 hours to fully charge depleted batteries. It would take a smart shunt or clamp on amp meter to determine actual output of the OEM converter, which of course will be directly relate to SOC at the time. 

There is an advantage to the OEM converter beyond the charge rate, and that is that the converter will supply the 12 VDC needs in place of the batteries when it is powered up. Also, if your refrigerator is dual voltage (12 VDC or 120 VAC), the refrigerator will switch to 120 VAC. When it switches to 120 VAC, you are already ahead of the game, regardless of the output of the OEM converter because you are no longer operating the refrigerator on 12 VDC.

Hope this helps!

Brad

AnOldUR

@Dutch061. The 40Ah per day is probably a high estimate, but still the numbers don't look good as I had hoped as far as recharging time goes. Hoping that we'll get by with a little help from solar. You've given me a lot to think about. Thank you Brad.

Marceline

AnOldUR said:

@Dutch061. The 40Ah per day is probably a high estimate, but still the numbers don't look good as I had hoped as far as recharging time goes. Hoping that we'll get by with a little help from solar. You've given me a lot to think about. Thank you Brad.

40aH seems really high, assuming you have a 3way fridge and you're using it on propane. I have a 2way fridge and if I'm careful I get away with 35-40aH per day.