Is an all electric TaB trailer viable

Denny16

With the 2023 TaB coming with a large lithium battery upgrade available, like the 400 amp hr battery with a 3KW inverter/charger package for the TaB400, and large 2-way fridge, can we expect an all electric TaB (no propane systems) in the near future?  

You could power  the Alde at a 1KW setting on 120VAC on the inverter, and run the AC for short periods off grid.  But how long could you expect to run either one just off the 400 amp hr battery bank and having  almost 400-watts of solar available (190-watts on roof snd a 200 watt portable panel setup).  Add in an induction cooker in the galley.  

Seems like a nice plan, but will it work for an average three days off grid camping trip?  Will the solar keep up the batteries, running either the Alde for several hours in evening and/or the Cool CatAC unit?  Both are heavy users on then120VAC power side, the Alde set at 1KW, would run for 4 hours continuously off of 400 amps of batteries.  Bit the Alde does not run continuously, it cycles off and on, like the compressor fridge or the Cool Cat AC.  I know ambient temps outside will be a major factor.  But for the average camping trip where the temps might range from 40F to 80F, what do you think?  Would a 400-600 amp lithium battery bank on a 3KW inverter
work to replace the propane systems on the TaB? 
Cheers 

Viajero

It’s not viable for heat or hot water in a small foot print like a T@B.  The battery would need to be 20 to 30 kWh….at least. 

Jmho. 

RFraer

I think that the upgraded batteries are more of a convenience and not viable as a replacement for propane. Some Class B's have done this but they have methods for recharging from the vehicle engine automatically when the battery system senses a low SOC.

I have run the Alde on batteries for hot water. The Alde ran for 30 minutes on the 2k watt setting. My SOC dropped about 5% on 600 amp batteries. I don't think the batteries would heat the camper comfortably for three days in cool conditions.

Grumpy_G

The way some newer van style RVs get away without propane is that they use a diesel heater instead. The batteries are sufficient to do some simple cooking but not enough to produce heat for extended periods. 

bergger

I think it is totally viable at some point but certainly not with the current set up.  They would need to dump the Alde and cool cat and use a more efficient appliances. Possibly it could work with the current 400 AH lithium batteries if you went with truma appliances, possibly the vario heater or combi unit and their new aventa eco ac paired with maybe a 3000 watt inverter. However the problem I see is using electricity for efficient heat.  The vario and combi so still use or have the option to use propane for heat, albeit in a more efficient manner. I much prefer a very efficient propane heat source to a diesel heater.  But I also would consider the need for NuCamp to add more permanent solar on the roof or include a portable panel in the package to truely make it all electric unit from the factory.  If the customer has to add their own solar to make it really work then the company misses the mark. Again I think the heat source, not the ac is the real challenge for an all electric camper but I definitely see it in the future.  With current technology I think they can totally run all systems off of electric efficiently enough with the exception of the heat. 

pthomas745

With NuCamp selling a 7K lithium option and dealers probably telling new owners "it can run the AC!" ....we are certain to have the same sort of questions about battery life that we have now about the 320's with the small batteries and the 2 way fridge. 

manyman297

I wish they’d make a cool cat (cabinet AC) option running on 12v. The rooftop 12v units pull quite a bit less load (but they also don’t cool quite as well) and you could ditch the inverter. As far as heating I think you’d have to rely on propane which isn’t a big deal to me. Hauling a generator sucks and being able to run your AC without it is the holy grail. But charging your battery bank back up with just solar would be difficult and unreliable.

Denny16

Yes, whilst we are getting closer, the all electric TaB is a bit off in the future, but still, an interesting idea.  Meanwhile, my next goal with our TaB400, is to upgrade to lithium batteries, and at least a 2KW inverter, and eliminate the gas cooktop, and replace it with an Induction cook top, either countertop, or a drop in to replace the gas stove top.  We use a microwave for rehearing prepared food we being along, and only use the gas stove to heat water for coffee or tea, and heat up soup, all,of which could be done with an induction type unit.  This would eliminate the gas venting and heat from the propane cook top.  

The Alde heater we have, is going to need the propane to get any real heating done, and at this time is more practical for heating.  Perhaps a future Alde unit will be AC/DC and use battery power to replace the gas burner, when the technology catches up.
 Cheers 

YanniLazarus

Can't resist commenting.  The way to go all electric is to have a super insulated trailer that just needs ventilation in the winter and is largely heated by one or two bodies.   Most Net- zero houses already work that way... a little cross fertilization of technology so that only a minimal heat source is required would be exciting. Secondary gain = four season camper!

Dutch061

Unfortunately, with the very low amount of insulation in a TAB, I don't see anything like this possible. And I should clarify, in NuCamp's defense, these are not 4 season units. In order to get them there, they would need to add a lot of additional insulation and thickness to the walls, floor and ceiling. This would move them put of the weight range they are in and eliminate a lot of smaller vehicles ability to tow them (400 or 320)

My highly modified 2020 Tab 400 BDL will be for sale soon. I have decided to go in a bit different direction that will suit our usage better.

Brad

YanniLazarus

Brad- no need to speak in NuCamp's defense- I love my 3 season 320.  I would only suggest that a serious reconfiguration of insulation as part of an all- electric T@B is .... at least Possible!

CharlieRN

It is doable for nuCamp, but as the previous posters have indicated, there is a considerable amount of work involved, and the cost is likely to be quite high. A few new RV makers are working on electric campers, and at least one is available now, if your wallet can handle it:

https://www.motor1.com/news/603388/bowlus-volterra-luxury-rv-trailer-electric/

Denny16

Thanks Charlie for the link.  I also agree, about needing better/improved insulation on the trailers, which will also increase its energy efficiency, even on current trailers, and this would be a good first goal to meet.  

The Voltterra is an interesting idea, but expensive at $300K!  Love the retro bullet design.

Thor is also working on an Airstream eStream concept trailer, that is not only has all electric appliance systems for heat, cooling and cooking, it is self powered and can work with its TV to reduce trailer drag, and increase fuel efficiency on conventional IGE TVs, but will also increase the range on electric TVs, by reducing the load on the TV battery and drive systems.  

Perhaps in the next five years these concepts will come to market in affordable packages, and we will have an all electric RV/Trailer that can be used both in RV facilities or for off grid, Boondock type camping.
 Cheers 

Mouseketab

Probably should specify an All-Electric off grid T@B. My T@B is all-electric, and is very viable, but is not designed for off-grid.

GigHarborTom

Trailer Drag is another good topic...We have pulled the TAB, T@G, 20ft Avion restored, other teardrops, Vintage 40s restored, Canned Ham etc. Weird but we got the same mileage or +/_  or two MPG with Toyota 4 Runner . Usually 14 all around. With the MAZDA CX9 we got the same mileage on the TAB and T@g.
Insulation.. The walls of our TAB were super hot with outside temp 107.  
We normally camp with hookups, and do enjoy the TAB. Kinda complicated for an old goat, but all is well.

Mickerly

Trailer drag is a tow vehicle issue. I built a custom nose for my 320CS making the front more rounded. 17% better range. I think to get an additional significant change you need to change the down vector of the air off the back of an SUV to an upward or level vector so it hits the curved part of the roof. On a pickup you need a camper shell.

Insulation and efficiency are the trailer issues. The 320CS is reasonable well insulated compared to other trailers but very drafty. When you stop the drafts in the winter, you wake up to rain inside your trailer and all your clothes are wet inside the cabinets. I think the fresh air issue is just as important as affordable yet efficient appliances and better insulation.

All are coming, just not very fast. The products are available, but the price is too high for consumer use or it's restricted.

pthomas745

During the winter months when everyone is working on reducing condensation in the trailer, I always wonder that  a "blanket"  that covered the trailer would be the way to prevent it.  In this conversation, the easiest way to add insulation would be removable panels with some R value? And, with the proliferation of owners wanting to heat their lithium batteries, why not 12V heated floors of some type?  We have seen the mods for owners who want to try a 4 season/no winterizing needed tank heaters.  How hard would it be to heat the trailer with 12V pads?  (at least a little bit).

techietab

Mickerly said:

Trailer drag is a tow vehicle issue. I built a custom nose for my 320CS making the front more rounded. 17% better range.

...Do you have pictures to share?

Mickerly

Its the first prototype or proof of concept. It does look like something from a Wild Wild West set.

CharlieRN

Trailer drag is a very important issue for me: I plan to replace my Telluride with a Rivian when that vehicle is delivered, perhaps late next year. Reducing aerodynamic drag is key to extending range, and while that's true whether the TV is an ICE vehicle or an EV, it's much more important for the latter since the charging infrastructure is quite fragmented and unreliable somewhat (unless it's Tesla).

The T@B is great camper, and while it is light, the teardrop shape is not particularly aerodynamic. My understanding is that in addition to being relatively high, the slab sides of the 320 are a big contributor. There is not a great deal of data on EV towing with various trailer shapes yet, but it looks like the bullet shape is the best when it comes to extending range. One family reported nearly 1.5 mi/kWh while towing a 30' Airstream; by comparison, several reports of towing with box trailers yielded results as low as 0.8 mi/kWh.

I haven't yet seen any consumption figures when towing larger teardrops, but I'd expect them to be in between, so perhaps 1.2 to 1.3 mi/kWh. For an EV like the Rivian, now available only with a 135kWh battery pack, that equates to an effective towing range of 105 to 114 miles (80% charge/20% reserve). Towing that 30' Airstream would result is quite a bit more range, about 135 miles. A smaller Aistream should improve a bit on that, perhaps to 150 miles or so. My order is for the larger 180 kWh battery pack, which hopefully would get me pretty close to 150 miles with my 320. If I changed to something like the Airstream Bambi, I'd start closing in on 200 miles between charges.

I'm hoping that my range figures for the 320 behind the Rivian are too conservative; stopping to recharge every two hours or so is not particularly attractive and worse, is not actually supported by the charging network in some parts of North America. If that turns out not be the case, watch this space for a good deal on an upgraded 320S BD . . .

techietab

Mickerly said:

Its the first prototype or proof of concept. It does look like something from a Wild Wild West set.

If it works, it works. I'd rather expend less fuel than have a camper with perfect aesthetics. Impressed that such a simple modification could yield such a large range increase.

CharlieRN said:

I'm hoping that my range figures for the 320 behind the Rivian are too conservative; stopping to recharge every two hours or so is not particularly attractive and worse, is not actually supported by the charging network in some parts of North America. If that turns out not be the case, watch this space for a good deal on an upgraded 320S BD . . .

I'd love to swap my tow vehicle for an EV, but unless there are big improvements in EV tech in the next few years, I don't think it would be a wise decision. I know a couple of Model Y owners that tow boats, and their range becomes horrific when towing - over 50% reduction every time. Not a problem for them as they're towing to boat ramps within a couple hours of drive time, but that's not a use case that works out well for most trailer-camper users.

I had high hopes for the F-150 Lightning with the larger battery option, but that also seems to have abysmal performance when towing.

GigHarborTom

Charie RN...Saw a Rivian at our last trip near Wenatchee WA

Mickerly

I was hoping for greater the 20% improvement. My wife says I should be happy with 17%. She's probably right. The surprise in this is how the trailer handles. It used to be a jumping bean, bouncing along. Now it is perfectly smooth and quiet. I can hear the squeaks of the torsion suspension. No more bouncing and less drag is a lot less ware on the tow vehicle in addition to less fuel burn. We passed a number of semi trucks going the opposite way on a two lane highway. No movement from the wind. 

Last camp out, we arrived with pieces of yard taped all over. I think this is the majority of what I can get modifying the front of the trailer. Next move for me is finding a fiberglass or plastics manufacturer interested in making molds. Then everyone could have one. Unfortunately, I'm not retired yet, and life/work is slowing the process down.

CharlieRN

techietab said:

I'd love to swap my tow vehicle for an EV, but unless there are big improvements in EV tech in the next few years, I don't think it would be a wise decision. I know a couple of Model Y owners that tow boats, and their range becomes horrific when towing - over 50% reduction every time. Not a problem for them as they're towing to boat ramps within a couple hours of drive time, but that's not a use case that works out well for most trailer-camper users.

I had high hopes for the F-150 Lightning with the larger battery option, but that also seems to have abysmal performance when towing.

There is a large impact on fuel consumption and hence range when towing with an ICE vehicle, but it's much less noticeable, and far easier to handle because of the near ubiquity of service stations. Stopping to refuel every 150 - 200  miles is not a big deal and requires virtually no advance planning. That's not yet the case with an EV because of the smaller numbers of charging stations and their locations (dense in some places, non-existent in others). That's changing however, and quite rapidly; there is a considerable amount of money in the new IRA for the charging infrastructure upgrade & expansion which should help the situation a lot.

Folks are often concerned about the time to recharge, but there are a few things about that are often overlooked or misunderstood. Surveys show that motorists spend about 12-14 minutes at service stops, which is not that much less than the time to recharge an EV to 70-80% of capacity event at current lower voltage chargers. Since you can run the climate control (typically a low-drain heat pump) while you're recharging, you can simply sit comfortably in the EV while having a cup of coffee and watching a movie or reading. Newer EV's can charge at 800 volts, which, once the infrastructure is available, will shorten charging time to under 10 mins for an 80% charge. That will make refueling and recharging times much more equal.

The use of charging stations when towing is another issue and it's often difficult or impossible to hook up to a charger without unhitching. New charging facilities are being configured as pull-throughs, like gas  stations, but it will obviously take time for this become the norm. Crowding, broken stations and the blocking of chargers, often deliberately, by motorists are also issues. All of these issues (except perhaps for inconsiderate motorists) are being addressed, and I'm optimistic that we'll see many improvements quite soon. Since it's unlikely I'll have the Rivian before the end of next year (2024 delivery probably more realistic), there's quite a bit of time for the upgrades to happen.

Denny16

I think charging times in the older 220 VAC, 30/40 amp charges is going to depend on the EV and how low the battery is discharged.  Our Volt can trek up to an hour to 1.5 hrs to fully charge, 80% charge is quicker, but longer than 10-15 minutes.

Charging tech is improving and newer EVs charge in under 30 minutes, depending on the charging system used.  High voltage charging is quicker, but only gets the battery to 80-85% from reviews I have seen.

With the improvements in higher voltage charging, and well laid out charging stations, to be more like a rest stop, that includes a convenient store or cafe, will make the typical charging stop easy.  Use the restroom, get a snack, and by the time you stretch your legs, the EV will be charged and ready to go.  Drive thru for larger vehicles and EVs towing a trailer will also be needed.  

We also need to change our way of traveling, slow down to 50-60 mph will increase your range, and improve your journey.  Make the trip part of the vacation, and not trying to cover 400-600 miles in one day.   Andrew Ditton on his UTube Chanel did a nice review of towing a trailer with a EV SUV type vehicle.  He started out with a larger/heavier trailer (caravan) and towed at different speeds, in different road conditions giving the average energy consumption per mile.  He then switched to a smaller, lighter TaB400 size type of caravan and his range increased, as it did when he went 50-55 mph vs traveling on major highways at 60-65 mph.  

We keep our average distance per day to around 250 miles or so, and stop at interment stops for the night and a relaxing break, before hitting the road again.  We stop at a nice halfway point (100-125 miles) to take a break, have a snack, and hit the road again.  This would average out for a typical EV towing range, allowing a charge during the half hour rest stop.
 Cheers 

Viajero

Mickerly said:

Trailer drag is a tow vehicle issue. I built a custom nose for my 320CS making the front more rounded. 17% better range. I think to get an additional significant change you need to change the down vector of the air off the back of an SUV to an upward or level vector so it hits the curved part of the roof. On a pickup you need a camper shell.

Insulation and efficiency are the trailer issues. The 320CS is reasonable well insulated compared to other trailers but very drafty. When you stop the drafts in the winter, you wake up to rain inside your trailer and all your clothes are wet inside the cabinets. I think the fresh air issue is just as important as affordable yet efficient appliances and better insulation.

All are coming, just not very fast. The products are available, but the price is too high for consumer use or it's restricted.

Kudos on the efforts to streamline. Looks very interesting. 

We have hauled our 400 over 12000 kilometres across Canada and back with our EV this year. We leave on another 2300 kilometre round trip tour of Vancouver island and the BC interior next week. Should be fun. We travel at max 90 kph. We are retired so no rush and 35 years of towing short wheel base combos has taught us to SLOW DOWN and be safe. That and save gas….errrr…save electrons. 😊

Best of luck in your efforts. I tip my hat to you sir. 

CharlieRN

Impressive @Viajero and an example of what we hope to do in the near future!

Is that a Model X you are using to tow your 400? Would you be comfortable sharing some range and/or energy consumption information? It would be paricularly helpful to know the miles/kilometers per kWh your Tesla experiences.

Viajero

CharlieRN said:

Impressive @Viajero and an example of what we hope to do in the near future!

Is that a Model X you are using to tow your 400? Would you be comfortable sharing some range and/or energy consumption information? It would be paricularly helpful to know the miles/kilometers per kWh your Tesla experiences.

Happy to share. So this is a 2022 model Y with towing package and AB. AB stands for acceleration boost. It’s a software option that cranks the horsepower to about 450 HP. 

At 90 kph in good weather I would say our average is about 360 - 380 wh per kilometre. But it’s not uncommon for us to see as low as 320 and as high as 400.  Road conditions, wind, etc all affect it. 

We count on charging every couple hours.  Normally without a trailer a typical supercharge is 20 minutes. With the trailer we tend to charge to a higher number so it’s probably closer to 30 minutes.  Gives us time to walk the chihuahua, pee, have bite to eat etc. 

Our days are anywhere from 50 to 600 kilometres long but most of the time we are touring so on average maybe 300 kilometres. We are usually on the road by 10 and off by 2 or 3. Nice pace. 

If we are staying in a campground with power we will charge overnight but usually we are on 30 amp sites so we don’t usually pick up more than 30 to 40 kWh. We dry camp a lot though so the majority of our charging is at Superchargers or Public DC fast chargers. 

Pic of us at a BC hydro fast charger in the Rockies and a Supercharger in Ontario.  Nice to see more of these trailer friendly sites showing up. 

Cheers. 

Denny16

Thanks @Viajero for sharing your EV towing experience and average range.  This is similar to what Andrew got towing a trailer similar in size and weight to a TaB400 from UK to Germany recently (see Andrew Ditton UTube review) towing with a Kia EV similar to the Tesla Model Y.
 Cheers 

CharlieRN

Many thanks for sharing the information @Viajero, very useful info for those of us on the brink of going electric and helps alleviate some of the anxiety regarding range. Your second set of photos of charging stops are also relevant and helpful. The lack of pull-through stations makes charging while towing needlessly challenging, and the transition to them can't come soon enough. From what I read, Tesla's charging network is also far superior to those by EA, Chargepoint and the like. The numbers of stations that are faulty or completely out of service is quite high compared to Tesla's, and most fail to get to Tesla-level charging voltage levels. It looks like Tesla is in the early stages of allowing non-Tesla vehicles to use their network, another welcome change that can't come soon enough.

In terms of range, if I've done the math right your data are very encouraging. Using the median 370w of your range average of 360 - 380 watts/km converts to about 1.69 miles per kWh. The Rivian I hope is my driveway next year can get 315 miles on its 135 kWh battery, which is 2.33 mi/kWh. If it gets similar mileage towing our T@B to what you see with your Tesla, that's a negative impact to range of only about 27%. That's roughly what we see with our Telluride now, and welcome news. Assuming charging to 80% while traveling, and recharging at around 15% remaining capacity, gives an effective capacity of roughly 90 kWh for the Rivian. If we got 1.69 mi/kWh, we'd have a range of just over 150 miles. That would still make travel to some parts of North America a bit challenging, but certainly doable. We travel with our two Welshies, and usually stop every two hours regardless of the need for fuel, to give the dogs a break and stretch our own aging legs.

Thanks again for sharing!

Viajero

CharlieRN said:

Many thanks for sharing the information @Viajero, very useful info for those of us on the brink of going electric and helps alleviate some of the anxiety regarding range. Your second set of photos of charging stops are also relevant and helpful. The lack of pull-through stations makes charging while towing needlessly challenging, and the transition to them can't come soon enough. From what I read, Tesla's charging network is also far superior to those by EA, Chargepoint and the like. The numbers of stations that are faulty or completely out of service is quite high compared to Tesla's, and most fail to get to Tesla-level charging voltage levels. It looks like Tesla is in the early stages of allowing non-Tesla vehicles to use their network, another welcome change that can't come soon enough.

In terms of range, if I've done the math right your data are very encouraging. Using the median 370w of your range average of 360 - 380 watts/km converts to about 1.69 miles per kWh. The Rivian I hope is my driveway next year can get 315 miles on its 135 kWh battery, which is 2.33 mi/kWh. If it gets similar mileage towing our T@B to what you see with your Tesla, that's a negative impact to range of only about 27%. That's roughly what we see with our Telluride now, and welcome news. Assuming charging to 80% while traveling, and recharging at around 15% remaining capacity, gives an effective capacity of roughly 90 kWh for the Rivian. If we got 1.69 mi/kWh, we'd have a range of just over 150 miles. That would still make travel to some parts of North America a bit challenging, but certainly doable. We travel with our two Welshies, and usually stop every two hours regardless of the need for fuel, to give the dogs a break and stretch our own aging legs.

Thanks again for sharing!

Happy to help. We travel similar to you. We have been at this for about 30 years so we have learned that a relaxed pace is not only more useful for seeing things it is healthier. 

I don’t know much about the Rivian but your numbers seem about right. Remember though that we travel at around 90 kmh…or slower as many of the secondary highways are limited at 80 kmh or 90 kmh. I know some people travel pretty fast on American interstates so that will skew things. Speed affects range in a huge way. 

The only other comment I’ll make is that with the Rivian travelling in that Goldilocks zone of 20 to 80 percent should be easy. For our car with a smaller battery we tend to charge to 90 percent just to increase our comfort zone a bit. And in the beginning of the day it is common for us to start out at 100 percent. 

You enjoyed the pictures so well put up a few more.