Did I kill my battery?

PNWtabber

My trailer is a 2018 320S Outback/Boondock.  At home it is almost always plugged in to shore power.

Just got home from a trip.  Prior to leaving home, I pre-chilled the refrigerator on shore power.  When I left home, I switched the refrigerator to "battery" hoping to keep things chill during the drive.  After a 4-hour drive, I unhooked the trailer, but neglected to turn the refrigerator off of "battery."  After being away from camp for about 6 hours (trailer unconnected to shore power), I returned to: no power in the trailer (no lights, nothing) and a blank Victron screen, when I suddenly remembered I had left the refrigerator on "battery".

I turned off the refrigerator; whereupon the SeeLevel II Tank monitor displayed this message (I kid you not): Sht
In addition, the Alde control panel (which had been off) suddenly illuminated but was blank -- I could not get it to turn off.

I had no cell phone connectivity, so couldn't look up any information and just went to bed.  At some point during the night, the Alde control panel went dark.

Next day, I drove for about 3 hours.  When I arrived at my destination, the Victron proclaimed I had some power (can't recall the number), which I verified by turning on a light as a test.  I hooked up to shore power for two days, everything worked.  Then I drove home today (about 2.5 hours).  When I disconnected, I was dismayed to see the following on my battery charge displays:  Victron was blank again and SeeLevel showed 9.8 battery voltage!?!?!:



I just checked the meters again, after 2 hours of the trailer sitting in the driveway, unhooked from car or shore power, and the SeeLevel says 12.2 volts, Victron is still blank.



I am the second owner of this trailer.  I do not know if the battery is the original.  The battery is an Interstate Marine/RV battery, HD24-DP, the manufacturer's website says it is a "24 month" battery.  Unfortunately, the installation date is not indicated on the battery label.

Also, now that I am home, I looked up the SeeLevel II code Sht:  "If a sender is shorted or there is a short in the wiring, the

display will indicate a short circuit by showing “Sht” on the LED display."

Electricity and I do not really get along, so I am uncertain how to approach this situation.

Questions:

• The Victron monitor usually displays without me having to touch any buttons.  But is currently blank.  Does that mean it is not reading any power or do I need to do something?
• Why did the Alde screen go wonky?
• Did I kill the battery by letting it run the refrigerator?
• Is it likely that the battery needs to be replaced?
• Am I feeling a false sense of security that everything worked fine on shore power?  Do I have a bigger issue than the battery?  I'm still thinking of the Sht code on the SeeLevel II    Would a dead battery cause a short circuit code on the monitor?

Thanks for any words of wisdom!

Mickerly

A 320 with a 3-way refrigerator inside, Yes? Not a good idea to run the "3-way" on battery power. That refrigerator gets really hungry. It is likely the battery will no longer hold a charge.

When a battery is stressed, it will show a low voltage. When given a rest, the voltage will rise a little as the battery internally stabilizes. Just like when a flashlight runs out of power. Turn it off for an hour or two and you can get a few more minutes of light.

Only my opinion, replace the battery and see if everything come back to normal. Your battery (the same as mine) is not the most durable. One deep discharge is probably enough to kill these batteries.

Replacing with an AGM or GEL would give you a more forgiving system without having to do any other modifications. I plan on changing to an AGM when my battery dies. I have an '18 320CS.

PNWtabber

Thanks, @Mickerly, I think this weekend I will take a deep dive into learning about batteries!  (and I really didn't intend to run the refrigerator on battery after I reached camp, just a mental slip).

pthomas745

The 3 way fridge in my 2017 uses 11 amps.  Your battery picture shows you have a stock, 80 AH battery.  Maybe your vehicle can produce enough charge to keep the battery charged while driving, or maybe it produces just a bit of power.  So, call that a draw on battery use.  But: the six hours sitting with no charge coming in and the fridge drawing those 11 amps used 66 amps (at least) from your 80 amp hour battery. Normally, to help preserve the maximum number of cycles you can get from a battery, you would try to keep the battery to 50 percent "state of charge", which would be about 40 amps. 

Either way, you drove this battery very very low.  What might have happened is "sulfation", which I'll let the link below explain.  The low charge over a decent amount of time might have pushed things over the edge, and the internal parts of the battery have failed.

https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/what-is-a-sulfated-battery-and-how-do-you-prevent-it/

The power being provided by shore power was just the shore power.  Maybe the battery held a little charge, but if it has failed, it probably will not hold that charge. 

You could have the battery tested at a local auto parts store, it you felt like going that way.  But, as Mickerly says, a battery upgrade should be in your future.  If you have the time: go find an actual "deep cycle" battery.  Don't settle for an Autozone/Walmart/local battery store "marine hybrid" or that sort of thing.  Decently priced AGM batteries are easy to find on Amazon, etc.  The next step up from your group 24 would be a "Group 27" battery, which will require a bigger battery box and close measurements to see if it will fit in your front tub.

This is one such battery.  Hold out for a 100AH Group 27 Battery. 

https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Power-Group-100Ah-Battery/dp/B00S1RT58C

 

PNWtabber

@pthomas745 -- thanks.  Yes, total brain fart on my part to forget to switch it off once I arrived at camp.  I have figured for a while that I was looking at a new battery (especially not knowing the history of this one), so I think that time has come.

dsfdogs

@PNWtabber with those three way fridges, it's best to never run it on battery, not even driving. I suppose if you know for certain your Volvo can keep up, it would be ok. I know my 4Runner didn't. That is the same stock battery that came with my Tab too.

pthomas745

What is interesting is the reaction of the SeeLevel and the Victron. Is the SeeLevel "short" message discussing an actual short in the SeeLevel wiring?  (There are Forum posts about that).  Or, is the battery being so low is making the SeeLevel think something is wrong with its wiring?  That is an interesting reaction from that device.

You should be able to use your Victron to determine if your Volvo sends power to your trailer battery, and how much. Not sure which Victron version you have (bluetooth or non-bluetooth) but checking the readout in the trailer when you are parked and the vehicle is running should give you an indication of the charging status.

And, your other questions: the Alde needs at least 10.5 volts to operate (at least to make heat).  What happens when a battery gets down to the very low levels is probably fairly inconsistent. 

The other thing that might/should have been squawking at you is the gas alarm.  It also will alarm when the battery gets below about 10.5V.  Maybe it did alarm during the time the battery was dropping, but with no battery power, maybe it just stopped working at all. 

PNWtabber

pthomas745 said:

What is interesting is the reaction of the SeeLevel and the Victron. Is the SeeLevel "short" message discussing an actual short in the SeeLevel wiring?  (There are Forum posts about that).  Or, is the battery being so low is making the SeeLevel think something is wrong with its wiring?  That is an interesting reaction from that device.

You should be able to use your Victron to determine if your Volvo sends power to your trailer battery, and how much. Not sure which Victron version you have (bluetooth or non-bluetooth) but checking the readout in the trailer when you are parked and the vehicle is running should give you an indication of the charging status.

And, your other questions: the Alde needs at least 10.5 volts to operate (at least to make heat).  What happens when a battery gets down to the very low levels is probably fairly inconsistent. 

The other thing that might/should have been squawking at you is the gas alarm.  It also will alarm when the battery gets below about 10.5V.  Maybe it did alarm during the time the battery was dropping, but with no battery power, maybe it just stopped working at all. 

1.  Yes, very curious about the SeeLevel message.  
2.  The Victron (non-bluetooth) display is blank, but will work on shore power.  I will need to check the manual to figure out what's up with that -- possibly not enough battery to power it????? 
3.  The Alde was never running during this.  But the display illuminated (blank) when I turned the refrigerator off and I could not get it to turn off.  It finally did so sometime during the night.
4.  Gas alarm --- no one was in camp during the 6 or so hours that the battery was draining so I don't know if it was going off or not.

Sharon_is_SAM

The Victron is a battery monitor that receives power from - the battery!  If the battery is dead, it will not show any or an accurate voltage. If you ever see a State of Charge % that is a lot higher than what it should be relative to voltage, that is a good indicator that the battery is on its way out.

PNWtabber

@Sharon_is_SAM -- thanks, makes sense.
I guess I will spend the weekend educating myself on batteries and shopping!

PNWtabber

Can anyone recommend a "Battery 101" - post, website, video, etc. to get me started on studying the different types of batteries?  Thanks.

PNWtabber

If I switch from the current group-24 "flooded" battery to a group-27 AGM battery, will I need to make any modifications to wiring, etc.?  Or is it a simple swap?  I understand the AGM battery may be larger and may not fit in the current battery box in my tub, does the battery need to be in a box?  I'm assuming different sized boxes are available, right?

pthomas745

There are battery boxes that match the battery Group size.  Some owners have installed batteries without boxes, but the battery posts would need protection. 

The battery will just plug and play.  (Lithiums are a bit of a special case...but they are also plug and play, for the most part.)

This link is Battery University.  Short, not too overly technical descriptions.  This is the AGM page, look over on the right for the whole series of posts on "battery types".

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-201a-absorbent-glass-mat-agm

This Battery FAQ is what I learned a lot from, but it doesn't seem updated since I found it in 2016.  Does not even discuss lithium.  But: lots of good info about AGM/Golf Cart type batteries.  Good summary of charging.  Good summary about "false capacity" voltage readings. An excellent basic resource.  Just..old.

https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html

Horigan

There are no changes required when moving to an AGM battery.  You need to have the battery restrained.  A group 27 may still fit.  You can measure the box and compare to the dimensions of a group 27.  You may be able to get a larger box.  Bigger battery is always better.  If you go bigger with more amp-hours, you need to update the Victron to the new value.  Not sure how to do that with a non-bluetooth version.

Regarding the behavior of the other systems, I wouldn't worry about it if they operate normally with a fully charged battery.  These systems don't behave well with low voltage.

PNWtabber

Amazon has a Renogy Deep Cycle AGM Battery 12 Volt 100Ah, 3% Self-Discharge Rate, 2000A Max Discharge Current on sale for $199.97 (vs $299.97 list).  Would this be a good choice??? (unfortunately buying it packaged with the box is another $86.50 -- seems like a lot for a plastic box?)

https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Battery-Marine-Off-grid-Applications/dp/B075RFXHYK/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2BYLC7ZK9R1DH&keywords=agm%2Bbattery&qid=1662133866&sprefix=agm%2Caps%2C140&sr=8-3&th=1

pthomas745

The Renogy battery is competitively priced, about the same as the Universal battery I posted last night.

That is an insane price for the battery box. It does look nice, though.  Here are some Group 27 boxes.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=group+27+battery+box&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

Denny16

A battery box is more than just a plastic box, is is an acid proof container that will not split or break easily.  They used to be made of a hard rubber material.
A good box is worth the money.
 Cheers 

Horigan

That seems like a good price for that size battery.  I would compare your current box size to this battery size to see if you need to change.  If you do, you may find a less expensive box separately.  Having it all come as a package is convenient though.

VictoriaP

A few things to note:

A group 27 box will fit in the 2018 Outback/Boondock tub, though depending on the box, it may need to angle out the open back of the tub a little. I went this route with my original battery (installed by Apache before I picked up the trailer), a 105 ah AGM from Fullriver. No complaints despite the fact Apache drains it to near dead every time I take the trailer in for service. 🙄

Realistically, your two choices at this point are AGM or lithium. AGM is heavy, cheaper, can be charged in freezing temps, and your trailer’s converter is programmed to charge it fully. Completely plug and plug with your current setup, nothing to think about other than how do I lift the stupid thing into the tub and change the Victron settings to accurately track it. Old school recommendation is you can use 50% of capacity same as sealed lead acid, more modern recommendation is 80%…that may shorten its lifespan a little, but realistically not enough to worry about.

Lithium is lightweight, generally more expensive, can be drained to just 10% of capacity remaining without damage, and your 2018 cannot fully charge it, so you’ll either want to change the converter to a lithium compatible one or get a separate charger to periodically take it to a full charge. (This assumes you don’t have onboard solar.) Because it charges at a significantly higher voltage than a sealed lead acid or AGM, you probably should have an isolator on your 12v line on your vehicle, which is generally a good idea anyway to keep a hungry trailer battery from draining your vehicle battery (Battleborn has one they recommend). Because you leave your trailer plugged in at home while stored, you need to think about how you want to handle freezing temps: unhook the battery & bring it indoors? Get a heated lithium?

Because one is heavier and one is lighter than your current battery, in both cases, you’ll need to recheck your tongue weight and possibly rearrange your gear to adjust for that change.

PNWtabber

Thanks, @VictoriaP. 

I am hesitant to go the lithium-ion route, given the changes needed and the freezing concern. 
The Renogy AGM battery that I was looking at this morning is listed at 64 pounds, only 23 pounds more than my current battery--I'm thinking that shouldn't adversely affect my tongue weight, or am I being naïve?

VictoriaP

PNWtabber said:

Thanks, @VictoriaP. 

I am hesitant to go the lithium-ion route, given the changes needed and the freezing concern. 
The Renology AGM battery that I was looking at this morning is listed at 64 pounds, only 23 pounds more than my current battery--I'm thinking that shouldn't adversely affect my tongue weight, or am I being naïve?

No, that won’t make a significant difference. 

Mickerly

Sounds like you're on a good track. Good luck and have fun.

PNWtabber

Mickerly said:

Sounds like you're on a good track. Good luck and have fun.

Hahahaha, this is stressing me out like you wouldn't believe!!!  Fun is not on the menu.   

PNWtabber

Harrumph, the Renogy AGM 100Ah battery is slightly too big for my existing battery box and the box Renogy sells (as well as other boxes for group 27 batteries I am finding on Amazon) are too big for the tub, as far as I can tell.

VictoriaP

@PNWtabber A group 27 box isn’t a perfect fit in the older aluminum tub. Apache installs them at an angle, with one corner of the lid (which is oversized to accommodate cables) sticking slightly out the open back. 

Edit: I can’t get a perfect shot, too much stuff, but this is mine. You can kinda see the corner of the black battery box sticking through the cutout I had to make in the white corrugated plastic that I use to block off the open back of the tub on that side. Only one lid corner sticks out, the rest of the battery box lid, and all of the box base is within the confines of the tub. (White plastic box on top of the black battery box holds the shunt and bus bars I installed.)

PNWtabber

@VictoriaP -- interesting.  Perhaps there is hope after all.  I guess I could order it and, if I can't make it work, return to Amazon.  Will mull it over.

VictoriaP

@PNWtabber The only real issue with the box sticking out this way is you’ll have to accommodate it somehow if you decide to put a “back” of some sort onto your tub. If you’re leaving it open, the battery box pokes out less than an inch. Honestly, it’s been a non issue. 

Mickerly

The 2018 should have a plastic tub without a back, unless someone upgraded.

VictoriaP

Mickerly said:

The 2018 should have a plastic tub without a back, unless someone upgraded.

PNWTabber has a 2018 Boondock, so the tub is aluminum

PNWtabber

VictoriaP said:

@PNWtabber The only real issue with the box sticking out this way is you’ll have to accommodate it somehow if you decide to put a “back” of some sort onto your tub. If you’re leaving it open, the battery box pokes out less than an inch. Honestly, it’s been a non issue. 

Hi @VictoriaP -- the Renogy box is designed to hold batteries from groups 24-31.  It comes with "dividers" to shorten the interior length to match the battery.  The exterior dimensions of the box are given as:  External Dimension: 16.7 x 9.7 x 10.6 inches.  

Is your battery box the same size?

VictoriaP

I believe this is what I have, but I’m not certain. Came with the trailer. https://www.amazon.com/Camco-Large-Battery-Straps-Hardware/dp/B00EOX2OKS