Renogy 2000W Inverter Install in T@B 320S

AnOldUR

I'm in the beginning stage of installing a Renogy 2000W inverter in our 2020 320S. I have spent hours going over the many other installations posted here (lots of great information), but couldn't find everything that I was looking for. Hoping to gain from others experience and share mine.

First question. The Renogy inverter has "High Output AC Terminals". It says, "These terminals are for connecting 115V AC devices that require more than 15 amps to operate or for connection to distributed wiring that has multiple AC outlets". The only outlet I plan to hardwire to the inverter is the one above the sink. Can I simply pull the wires from the pass through outlet below the bench seat and connect them directly to these inverter terminals or is a circuit breaker required between the inverter and outlet?

rh5555

Inverter claims to have overload protection built-in, so I'd say no breaker is needed.

AnOldUR

rh5555 said:

Inverter claims to have overload protection built-in, so I'd say no breaker is needed.

That was my thought also, but I was looking for some conformation. Thanks. I also submitted a ticket to Renogy asking the same question, but don't have experience with their response time.

AnOldUR

Still thinking about the actual installation location and method, but thought it best to run a test first to be sure it was functional. First impression is that it will do everything I had hoped. I'm running a test right now. I plugged the Air8 into the inverter. It started up with no signs of any overload. It's drawing about 7.6 amps at 908 watts. I didn't see the meter go over 10 amps at startup. Now I have to keep an eye on the battery level to see how long it will run. Running the AC is only a secondary reason for installing the inverter, but a good way to put it to the test.

CharlieRN

AnOldUR said:

I'm in the beginning stage of installing a Renogy 2000W inverter in our 2020 320S. I have spent hours going over the many other installations posted here (lots of great information), but couldn't find everything that I was looking for. Hoping to gain from others experience and share mine.

First question. The Renogy inverter has "High Output AC Terminals". It says, "These terminals are for connecting 115V AC devices that require more than 15 amps to operate or for connection to distributed wiring that has multiple AC outlets". The only outlet I plan to hardwire to the inverter is the one above the sink. Can I simply pull the wires from the pass through outlet below the bench seat and connect them directly to these inverter terminals or is a circuit breaker required between the inverter and outlet?

As @rh5555 indicates, if the inverter has overload protection, you do not need a breaker and could connect directly to the desired outlet. There is no downside to adding a breaker however, and having one would be an easy way to have a "switched" outlet. With respect to outlets, given the location of the one you are planning to connect to, it may be worth changing it out for a GFCI.

I'm also interested in adding an inverter and would be happy to see more photos and narrative about your installation @AnOldUR.

AnOldUR

Thanks for bringing up the GFCI @CharlieRN. Looking closer, I noticed that the outlet under the bench seat is GFCI and also supplies power to the outlet above the sink. If I use the wire going to the sink outlet, I'd lose the ground fault protection there. The three options I see are; (1) replace the sink receptacle with a GFCI, (2) tie both outlets into the inverter, (3) add a single circuit breaker with GFCI after the inverter. I'm leaning toward #2, but I do occasionally use the bench seat outlet while on shore power. Not a big problem. Just have to have the inverter turned on to use it, but having a second inverter outlet would be good.

I'll add more as the project progresses. This is more of a wifey mod for me. She missed things like her hair dryer, curling iron and blender for smoothies during our last extended road trip.

edit to add:
Thinking it may be possible to break the tabs on the bench seat receptacle so that the lower outlet is fed by the inverter and the upper buy shore power? Not sure how the GFCI would work, but will check it out. Any electricians here know?

Slackers

@AnOldUR On our '19 CSS the bench GFCI outlet protects the outdoor (by the door) and galley outlets.  Your bench and outdoor outlets are probably wired similarly.

AnOldUR

Slackers said:

On our '19 CSS the bench GFCI outlet protects the outdoor (by the door) and galley outlets.

Thanks for bringing this up. It could have been a problem, but it turns out that on our 2020 S the outdoor outlet is on a separate circuit and has its own GFCI receptacle. It looks as though it may also protect the receptacle back by the bed, but on your CSS there's probably other provisions for getting power to the clam shell.

RFraer

You don't need a circuit breaker, just like plugging into a generator with overload protection. Curious why you didn't want a inverter with a transfer switch for shore power?

Denny16

An Inverter with auto transfer switch cost more…. and require connecting the inverter to the trailer’s 120VAC system to work.  The Renolgy 2K is a simplified setup, connect one set of terminals to the battery, and you have power at the inverter’s outlets.  

On the TaB400s that have nüCamp’s OEM inverter, the early ones just had one dedicated inverter outlet, and was not tied to the trailer’s mains (120VAC) system.  Later they added an auto transfer setup, but this added confusion on how to use the inverter system, and some outlets had to have the I verte in, even when connected to shore power for the dedicated outlets to work off the mains.  

I also considered this, but decided the simpler non auto transfer system was better for the smaller 2K inverter, and have two outlets powered only by the inverter.  So I should just be upgrading the nüCamp OEM 1600 watt inverter to 2K, and add one more outlet in the galley.  I like AnOldUR’s idea of splitting the galley outlet, one socket for shore power, the other for the inverter.  You would need a GFCI outlet in the galley to do this, which the 400 has.
 Cheers 

Dutch061

On my 400, I moved the wire for the outlet by the sink from the breaker and added it to the outlets powered by the Inverter. Got tired of sitting my coffee pot and toaster on the floor to use the outlet that was powered by the door. Now, I have power in all of the outlets (including outside) with the 1200 watt AIMS inverter. If I hadn't ordered a new camper a few days ago, I would install the Victron 3000 watt Multi and run the entre camper off of it.

Brad

Denny16

Yes, I,looked at that option also Brad, but you need 300-400 amps for a 3K inverter to work with a unit like the Victron Multi 3K.  I decided on just upgrading to a 2K, so I can run the small microwave I bought.  The AMS inverter will not run it.  The Renolgy 2K is less than half the price also.
 Cheers 

AnOldUR

It wouldn't be too far a reach to say that this inverter mod may have saved our lives. You may have already seen this link.

Got sidetracked, but did make a little progress.

Hole through floor under bench seat.

I thought I'd be drilling through plywood but ...

Used a film canister (anyone remember them?) as a sleeve for the hole.

Denny16

Nice core sample.  No plywood, nüCamp has been using a composite floor for quite a while now.  Your 2020 TaB has the Azdel (black top layer) foam and Greencore sandwich floor construction.  A top plywood layer was used for a brief time in 2021 to stiffen the feel of the floor when walking on it, as some complaints were received about the floor being too soft.  For 2022 and 2023 nüCamp is using a new composite floor that is not a sandwich, but a very stiff composite (non-layered) floor, that Airstream is also using.

AnOldUR

More progress today.

Negative and positive wires exiting tongue storage box.

Going up through floor ...

... and into drivers side bench seat storage.

Inverter mounted.

I looked at many examples of techniques for mounting the inverter under the bench seat. Stole this idea from someone, but not sure who. I'll have to look around again and give credit. Worked well. Thanks!

 

AnOldUR

Renogy replied twice to my email question about the need for a circuit breaker. The first didn't address the question. Instead it was a generic response and asked for product information that was already included in the original ticket. I replied by repeating the original question. Their second reply was again not useful. I was not impressed by my first experience with Renogy customer support.

My second email to Renogy repeating the same question:

Rachel
The question was, do I need to add a circuit breaker after the inverter when connecting to the High Output AC Terminals on a Renogy 2000W inverter (Model RGN-INVT-2000-12V-P2), or is there internal overload protection that will protect the circuit?
Thank you.

Renogy reply:
The output of the inverter can be connected to a circuit breaker.
Fuse or breaker specification calculation: Inverter power ➗ 120V ✖ 1.25
which is equal to 20.8A You can take the fuse specification nearest to this number. An oversize will not provide protection.

Since the question was "... do I need ...", and their reply was "... can be ...", I still don't know if it is necessary or optional. I'm not an electrician, but my understanding is that a breaker protects the wires and receptacles that are part of the circuit, not the components plugged into them. It doesn't even make sense that they would give fusing recommendation without knowing the wire size of the circuit. The rest of the email was a sales pitch for other Renogy products.

The inverter was working well during my initial testing. Sure hope I don't need any real support.

Denny16

I would think this would depend on the installation and application.  Adding an extra circuit breaker (20 amps) would provide additional protection, especially if putting a high current device like a microwave on the AC side of the inverter.  Most inverters in the 2K and less category are designed for plug and play, and can be used with out external circuit breaker for most small appliance applications.  

Pure Sine Wave inverter normally have a built in circuit protection, and the inverter will shut down if overloaded.  The AMS nüCamp uses, had no additional circuit breaker between the inverter and wall outlet.  It did shut down when I tried to run a small microwave oven.  

If an additional external circuit breaker or fuse was required, the installation instructions would specify one.
 Cheers 

VictoriaP

AnOldUR said:

Renogy replied twice to my email question about the need for a circuit breaker. The first didn't address the question. Instead it was a generic response and asked for product information that was already included in the original ticket. I replied by repeating the original question. Their second reply was again not useful. I was not impressed by my first experience with Renogy customer support.

…
 
Sure hope I don't need any real support.

Literally every Renogy product on Amazon has a not-insignificant number of reviews that cite their mediocre-to-useless customer service. It’s why though I do own a set of their solar panels, I’d be extremely hesitant to order anything from them again. Their quality is generally good, but yeah, gotta hope you never need to use customer support.

rcuomo

Denny16 said:

I would think this would depend on the installation and application.  Adding an extra circuit breaker (20 amps) would provide additional protection, especially if putting a high current device like a microwave on the AC side of the inverter.  Most inverters in the 2K and less category are designed for plug and play, and can be used with out external circuit breaker for most small appliance applications.  

Pure Sine Wave inverter normally have a built in circuit protection, and the inverter will shut down if overloaded.  The AMS nüCamp uses, had no additional circuit breaker between the inverter and wall outlet.  It did shut down when I tried to run a small microwave oven.  

If an additional external circuit breaker or fuse was required, the installation instructions would specify one.
 Cheers 

FYI, the Krieger 1500w inverter I installed came with a 150a ANL fuse. 

AnOldUR

rcuomo said:
FYI, the Krieger 1500w inverter I installed came with a 150a ANL fuse. 

The Renogy 2000W did not come with a fuse, but I added a ANL holder with a 150 amp fuse right next to the positive post on the battery. I was looking for a simple solution like this for after the inverter, but don't see anything in-line for a 15amp 120V circuit like the one feeding the dinette and kitchen receptacles. I'm sure there's something out there. Have to keep looking.

Denny16

That fuse is on the battery side, my AMS nüCamp install also has the large fuse, on the positive battery connection.  We were discussing a circuit breaker on the AC side of the inverter.  

After reviewing the Renogy 2K inverter manual, the high output connections AnOldUR wanted to sue, are screw terminals for a 20Amp load (load greater than 15 amps), per the manual, and I would connect this to a manual transfer switch added to the WaCo AC panel to power the TaB’s internal outlets with its circuit breaker protection.  This way, any outlet you need to use van run from the inverter.  You just need to keep the total amp draw at or below 20 amps, so I would run the microwave alone and shut off the AC/DC fridge AC breaker to keep it on DC.  Other wise, to just lower one or two out,ets, use the 15 amp plugs on the inverter, as they have a built in GFI breaker on them, that is reset by power cycling the inverter, according to the manual.  

For the DC battery connections, you size the fuse based on the max load requirement, which dictates the wire diameter to use.  If you use a No4 AWG wire (rated for up to 100 amps for runs up to 35-feet) to connect the inverter to the battery, the correct fuse size is 95 amps, not a 130 or 150 amp fuse, as the fuse protects the wire from overheating or causing a fire if shorted. Using a 95-amp fuse vs the 100-amp fuse (max current rating) gives you an added bit of overhead protection.  Using an oversized fuse would defeat this, and could allow the wire to overheat if overloaded.  A No 2. AWG wire would use a 125-amp to 130-amp fuse.
 Cheers 

AnOldUR

Denny16 said:

After reviewing the Renogy 2K inverter manual ...

Thank you for taking the time to do this. You picked up things that due to inexperience I glazed over.

The trailers 15amp circuits use 14 gauge wire. This is why I was worried about the 20 amp High Output AC Terminals needing additional overload protection. Since the inverter has built in GFCI, is there a problem with having it feed the other GFCI receptacles already present in the trailer? In other words, is it alright to have one GFCI feed into another GFCI? I was trying (being lazy) to avoid adding a transfer switch, but this does seem like the best way to go avoiding some of these complications.

Overload protection for the wire feeding the inverter is another place I was confused. After looking at charts (below) for the ANL fuse, I thought that for the 8' of 2 AWG wire a 150 amp fuse was OK. The fuse holder I purchased came with a 150 amp fuse, but after reading what you wrote and then researching more, I should be putting in a 125 (or lower) amp fuse.

Thanks again. My knowledge of wiring is just enough to get me in trouble.

 

Horigan

If you're daisy chaining outlets and need GFCI protection, you only need one GFCI outlet in the daisy chain and that will provide ground fault protection to all the outlets in the chain.

Spectre9

I will be capturing pictures when I do our 2018 320s install which I have collected parts for now - a 1200 Giandel inverter a WFCO T30 transfer switch on the gfci outlet (that chains to my outside and over the sink). 

I wanted anytime on push button inverter that still runs direct off shore power.

I also split the wide breaker on my AC panel into two thin breakers and put my power converter onto its own AC circuit.  When I power trailer AIr Conditioner I turn off converter to keep trailer cooler.  I have solar to cover my needs.  Also useful wiring to go full house inverter.  Gives the option to deal with blown converter and still use rest of trailer.

AnOldUR

Horigan said:

If you're daisy chaining outlets ...

This may be a little different situation. There is a GFCI built into the Renogy inverter. If I wired the dinette/kitchen circuit into the inverter it would also have a GFCI receptacle that is already present in the trailer. The question is if I should replace the GFCI receptacle with a standard one? Would having two in series cause any problems? I seem to remember reading something a long time ago saying not to do it, but I don't remember why.

Spectre9 said:

I will be capturing pictures when I do our 2018 320s install ...

Look forward to seeing your approach to the inverter install.

Denny16

@AnOldUR, you can wire two GFCI receptacle together on the same circuit, just be careful to get the wires correct, black(hot) to hot, white (neutral) to white and teen (ground to ground).  Keeping the hot and neutral straight is very important, or the GFCI will trip.  I would keep the gallley GFCI, and have it whilst you are on shore power.  You could split the galley outlet, which is the GFCI protection for the outdoor outlet, and have one socket for the inverter and the other for shore power.
 Cheers 

rh5555

AnOldUR said:

Horigan said:

If you're daisy chaining outlets ...

This may be a little different situation. There is a GFCI built into the Renogy inverter. If I wired the dinette/kitchen circuit into the inverter it would also have a GFCI receptacle that is already present in the trailer. The question is if I should replace the GFCI receptacle with a standard one? Would having two in series cause any problems? I seem to remember reading something a long time ago saying not to do it, but I don't remember why.

Technically, there shouldn't be a problem daisy-chaining GFCI circuits.  Each GFCI is making sure the current in the neutral line balances the current in the hot line, and only trips if there is an imbalance.  The worst that can happen is one of the GFCIs will trip and you have to figure a different approach.  Nothing will blow up.

AnOldUR

Cleaned up under the bench seat a little and wired an outlet from the High Output AC Terminals for the air conditioner. The dinette/kitchen outlets are fed by the inverters 15 amp output. I replaced the receptacle by the Air8 with a double outlet. One side is now powered by the inverter, the other by shore power. A lot of you did not agree with this configuration, but it will be easy enough to change later if it's not working for us. About all that's left is to mount the remote control.

Denny16

Wiring the two sides of the outlet, one for Inverter and the other for Shore Power is the simplest solution, and least expensive to do.  This eliminates any issue offshore power back feeding the inverter, or the other way round, and is a safe solution.  Personally, I think this is a good solution for a simple install like this.
 Cheers 

AnOldUR

Denny16 said:

Personally, I think this is a good solution for a simple install like this.

Went simple with the remote installation too. Looked seriously into putting it up by the Alde and Ewell controls, but didn't want to get into routing the wire through the wall. I wasn't sure where the air duct went and just wanted to get the job done. It's getting crowded below the bench seat, but that was my lazy solution.

AnOldUR

I'm using two 125 amp hour batteries with 2' of 5 AWG jumper wire between the batteries and 8' of 2 AWG wire with a 125 amp in-line fuse between the batteries and inverter. I made and interesting find that a lot of you were probably already aware of. The amperage draw between the batteries is half of what I measure going to the inverter. After thinking about it, it does make sense.

All that aside, this got me hindsight searching for wire size requirements. Lots of confusing (to me) information on the web, but this chart has me worried. It looks like for my 16' of round trip length, I'm way undersize. Please tell me I don't have to rewire.

https://wagan.com/blogs/news/customer-question-what-cables-do-i-need-for-my-power-inverter