Sagging Floor 'Repair' vs. Full Floor Replacement

MuttonChops

Question:
Has anyone else experienced a Water Damage Sagging Floor and not undertaken a major & full floor replacement?
That is you are living with it or completed some level of repair.

Background:
My 2018 composite structure floor is sagging on both sides of the floor frame cross-bar.
Communication with nuCamp service has confirmed:
a) This is a known failure mode when water intrusion occurs.
     While nothing rots water can/does enter the composite structure at the cross-bar seam.
     The water soaks into the foam, adds weight, causing the floor foam to sink.
b) This is not considered a safety or trailer usage risk.

For my trailer the floor section forward of the cross-bar has sagged/sunk enough that the bottom of the composite structure is now resting on the torsion axle housing.

Bottom Side View

Reference Cross-section

My Repair(?) Plan:
I intend to cut out the damaged vinyl floor covering & pad.
Install some peel & stick vinyl.
Place a small rug over the area.
{ and Yes, fully disclose if/when the trailer is placed on sale }

Thoughts ?


Additional Background can be found in this forum post:

Tabaz

This is so sad.  I keep watching for someone to offer a plausible solution to your problem.  NuCamp hasn't provided any assistance in rectifying the problem? 

Homebodyatheart

@MuttonChops great post! Unfortunately I think I may have the same problem in my 2017 320S. I’ve been noticing a spongy area at the intersection of wetbath to door and front center to back. Ugh! Thanks for the info!

dragonsdofly

@MuttonChops & @Homebodyatheart OUCH! To the both of you. Keep all of us updated on this and let us know if there is any resolution available. 

bergger

It would be nice if they used a one piece seamless floor to prevent this issue.  I know they've changed the floor composition several times since the 400 was introduced in 2018 so I have no idea which if any of the floors are actually seamless.  That would most likely be hard to determine. 

manyman297

The 2021 400s (and probably 320s) apparently have two layers of plywood on top of the greencore composite board. My guess (or hope) is that they were smart enough to stagger the seams to avoid a similar situation. I know the newer composite floor Nucamp uses is a one-piece unit in Airstreams so hopefully that’s what they did with the T@Bs.

tabiphile

This is clearly a quality/design defect.
Why are owners tasked with repairing it?
If ever there was a case for the manufacturer to provide repair service, this is it.
There is a clear history of failed attempts to improve the design, including this one.
Talk about a smoking gun!

MuttonChops

" A Few Comments & Updated Game Plan "

I fully agree that the 2018 floor design and maybe the build quality 'for water intrusion sealing' was less than ideal . . . I'm not comfortable saying this is fully a nüCamp failure.

Product design evolves as production and/or usage defects become known and nüCamp has been working to improve the floor structure design for many years.

Also, my rig is past the warranty period.  Yes, a longer warranty should be provided from a customer viewpoint but nüCamp is still ahead of most RV builders on duration and they frequently make repairs outside of the warranty.

Add in my rig usage.  Over 35K towing miles, several hundred on gravel or two-track dirt roads, and winter weather miles across states than use salt for road ice control.  While these are reasonable usage, I expect they are also well beyond the typical usage parameters used during the trailer design/specification process.

Finally. nüCamp responded quickly to my initial** request for information/help/suggestions regarding my floor sagging situation.  They were open about it being a known failure mode for this composite floor design and did provide helpful comments on the issue.

** nüCamp has not responded to my second email request for additional 'factory' suggestions.  Perhaps they have not seen the message as it was in a Reply to a message thread that might now be marked closed.  Or with the holiday season my message was just over looked.  Or perhaps nucamp has nothing additional to say/add so just decided not to respond . . .

Game Plan Update.

My original message to nüCamp suggested a repair plan of cutting and pulling up the vinyl to dry out the sub-floor and vinyl, then gluing the original vinyl back down.  nüCamp considered this a reasonable plan.
Note: At that time the floor bottom resting on the axle was not known.

Earlier in this tread, My plan was to remove the vinyl and use peel&stick replacement vinyl.

Today while inspecting and what-if'ing the floor I decided to return to the original plan to reattach the factory vinyl to the sub-floor.  This will look better and will be smoother.  And if it does not "take" can be undone.  Of course the wheel well bad seal needs to be redone and I'm not done searching for other possible water intrusion locations.  Plus this ignores the floor resting on the axle . . .

manyman297

These trailers can be a time, money and energy drain. I agree with @tabiphile in that Nucamp should be held partly accountable but it’s always easy for us not dealing with the problem to suggest this.

My vinyl flooring is starting to bubble again in several areas and I’ll be doing my initial needle and glue fix for these areas once again. More time, money and sweat. I feel like for every good memory I get out of this camper it’s quickly replaced with another repair I have to undertake. Luckily this repair isn’t anything @MuttonChops is dealing with but they all add up. Nothing will change unless the consumer stops buying the product I guess. 

Denny16

In 2022 nüCamp ent with a one piece Transcore composite floor, no seams, same type of floor panel Airstream is currently using.  So newer TaBs should not have any seam separating issues on TaBs built in 2022and later.
 Cheers 

VictoriaP

@manyman297A friend recently told me “I want a RV to make camping easier!” I haven’t laughed that hard in a while. 😁 

This Tab is the 5th RV I’ve owned by 5 different manufacturers starting with a vintage motorhome. Two were purchased brand new, three used. ALL were time and money drains. I’ve heard the same from others. Sadly, it’s just the nature of the beast; even the best built RV is a rolling earthquake routinely or constantly exposed to the elements, things are going to break or fail or just need a lot of regular maintenance. And most RVs aren’t all that well constructed.

Generally speaking, the Tab is better built than at least 90% of what’s out there, but stuff like this, where an apparently poor design choice was made and we’re stuck with the results, is incredibly frustrating.

Edit to add: The more I think about it, we’re reaching a point with these trailers that every model year in the last several has a different potentially significant flaw. You shouldn’t have to wonder if you bought just the right model year or if some major design issue is going to crop up in yours down the road. Maintenance failures and general wear and tear repairs are a very different thing in my mind than these poor material or design or appliance choices on the part of the manufacturer. 

Still better than a lot of what’s out there, but yeah, not happy about this.

bergger

I agree with what @VictoriaP says.  I've owned 4 different brands of trailers and our NuCamp is a very well built trailer.  However it is the second best built one we've owned.  But the best built one was such a different type of trailer it's hard to put it in the same category.  No matter how well built and expensive an RV is there will be some issues and a buyer should understand that.  However installing a floor with such a design flaw from the get go is not something the customer should have to deal with after warranty.  If it were my problem  I'd think about trading it in on a new one that has the seamless floor or buying a completely different trailer if that is possible.  I've looked at so many trailers and unfortunately if you want the look and feel of the T@b there is really no other option out there.  But the new ones at least appear to have a much better floor system.  

Lately I've been looking at Imperial Outdoors trailers and have honestly not seen a trailer built and insulated so well.  The floor, wall and roof systems are really incredible.  There are some great videos on the construction of the trailer.  You certainly pay for what you get and they are large heavy off road capable trailers so certainly a different market.  But the X-22 or X-145 would be on my list if I could swing it. 

MuttonChops

bergger said:
. . .  If it were my problem  I'd think about trading it in on a new one that has the
       seamless floor or buying a completely different trailer if that is possible.
. . .  unfortunately if you want the look and feel of the T@b there is really no other
        option out there.
  . . . been looking at Imperial Outdoors trailers

HaHa ,  I'm always looking/dreaming of a different travel trailer . . .
    did the same when operating a 28' Recreational Tug and ended up owning that boat for 23-years
    it had several DIY dry-rot wall repairs but a solid heavy 1960's fiberglass hull - - as in the fiberglass
    should be as thick as if wood was used. A great boat but life forced me away from the coast . . . .

My current short list of replacement travel trailers are:
  +   Tab 400   . . . . it has the Alde System, and it has a Black Tank
                               (I dislike the current 320S Cassette Toilet and Air8 A/C)

  +   Helio O2 . . . . positive construction reviews, but limited Black Tank and other features.
  +   Rove LIte 14FL . . . new improved construction but a brand not known for build quality.
                                     earlier Falcon model was on my short-list before purchasing the 320S
                                     and the Falcon was a real build material/quality failure.

The Helio and Rove also lack supportive owners forums like the TaB Family
- - - they have small facebook owner pages and imho facebook is not as useful as a classical forum.

As for Imperial Outdoors - - - I really don't need that level of off-road performance as 75% of my camping has been in  FED/State/Private RV Parks.  And for the trailer size I would be interested in . . . a Dry Flush Toilet is not for me.
      My concern with the dry-flush is the waste getting into landfills or back-country ditches,
      not being 'waste processed' and in a sealed bag that will not breakdown for years . . . just seems
       to be a pending public health issue . . .

bergger

Yeah I don't need that level of off road performance either but due to where we live the insulation properties in it would be fantastic.  If they would only make a smaller one geared towards on road it'd be perfect!  I always dream and investigate looking for the next better thing then always end up happily right back at my T@b 400! If they would just come out with a T@b 500 with a dry bath!

manyman297

@VictoriaP Yeah, the “make camping easier” quote made me laugh!,

I spent a fraction of this time fixing anything dealing with tent camping. I’m a relative newbie to RV’ing. Only had a popup camper before this. I’m just glad I’m relatively handy, otherwise I honestly would’ve sold our 400 shortly after getting it. Just mostly small issues (and a couple major) but if I weren’t handy they would’ve easily overwhelmed me. 

I know this conversation happens ad nauseum but maybe the poor quality is the consumer’s fault. We just put up with it…we tuck our tails and either fix things or just abandon RV’ing entirely. 

I get these are earthquakes on wheels but so are cars, buses, semis, etc. All of which log way more miles than a camper. I’ve never driven a car and the dashboard falls off…but I tow my 400 a few thousand miles a year and the vinyl floor starts to bubble up? Or the screws holding the cabinets to the walls start to back out? I think even the “best quality”
trailers are being compared against utter garbage (I’m looking at you Forest River) so it’s not a huge effort to beat the F students. We’re just used to these things failing us. 

In all fairness up to this point all of the major systems in our 400 have been functional with only minor issues. But for every great thing about the camper I’ll turn around and find some insanely half baked solution to something else. My hope is the quality increases now that the pandemic has subsided and they aren’t pumping these things out at a record pace. In fact they may have a lot of time on their hands the way the market is headed. Use that time to improve. 

I love where my RV can take me and the memories I can make with it but if the constant repairs continue to be more of a burden then I’ll have to be rational about it and abandon the lifestyle. 

MuttonChops

MuttonChops said:
My original message to nüCamp suggested a repair plan of cutting and pulling up the vinyl to dry out the sub-floor and vinyl, then gluing the original vinyl back down.  nüCamp considered this a reasonable plan.
. . .  while inspecting and what-if'ing the floor I decided to return to the original plan to reattach the factory vinyl to the sub-floor.

Update:  Original vinyl and backing material has been re-glued to floor.  I sealed the cut seams with silicone and covered that with Gorilla Duct Tape and re-installed the passenger bench.  For 'glue' I used Gorilla HD Construction Adhesive (barcode 0 52427 80100 5).  The passenger bench 'Alde Vent' panel had to be trimmed some and a couple thin spacers added to keep the bench level as the floor now not level.

With vinyl pulled up the old adhesive patterns suggest nuCamp used wide spaced beads of adhesive instead of a full smooth cover as would be used for a residential floor - - - which could be part of the overall 'floor bumps' or bubbles so many owners report.

I'm still in the process of removing the belly air-flow shield so I can inspect the floor bottom
.  .  . expect re-installing the air-flow shield will be a real pain .  .  .  .

Air-Flow Shield is 85% re-installed.  It is indeed a real pain to be doing in December. Cold & Wet work lying on one's back in that cramped space . . . .

dragonsdofly

@MuttonChops thanks for the update. Mentally, I feel your pain, but physically I'm long past that. Hang in there. If you achieve any successful level of repair (and I'm sure you will), this task will be worth the effort.

-Denise

Bayliss

@MuttonChops, I too feel your pain and have been following this discussion.  I am hopeful it all works out well for you.  I know you are busy now, but when things settle down with your major project, I am interested in any tips you have for dealing with this particular issue, or maybe even photos.  Best of luck to you.

stepheng

Really sorry to hear your issues.  I have a 2018 Outback but luckily no floor issues yet. Does water come from wheel well?  Trying to understand construction - the floor is a "sandwich" with foam and a crossbar in the middle of the wheel well?  What is outer material of the "sandwich" in the interior (top) and underneath (bottom).  From the picture above it looks like the "sandwich" structure has failed - i.e. there is nothing supporting the "sandwich" on either side of the crossbar.

How did you raise the foam and top material back up to be in its original position and relieve it sitting on the fresh water tank?  I have seen that others have had the floor repaired at the factory.  Is NuCamp standing behind this even if it is out of the 5-year structural warranty period?

After reading some of the issues about the wheel wells I have thought about removing the fenders and wheels, then masking the side panel just below the fender screws and then spraying several coats of Flex-seal where the side panels meet the wheel well and continuing that underneath to coat the entire underside of the wheel well.  Sounds like the air shield should be removed and the Flex-seal continued to coat the backside of wheel well where it intersects the bottom of the floor "sandwich".  Simply caulking the wheel well inside the trailer wouldn't prevent water intrusion from underneath the trailer as the foam would be below the caulk.  Any thoughts on this approach?

MuttonChops

stepheng said:
Does water come from wheel well?  . . A . .

Trying to understand construction - the floor is a "sandwich" with foam and a crossbar in the middle of the wheel well?  What is outer material of the "sandwich" in the interior (top) and underneath (bottom).  . . B . .

How did you raise the foam and top material back up to be in its original position and relieve it sitting on the fresh water tank?  . .  C . .

I have seen that others have had the floor repaired at the factory.  Is NuCamp standing behind this even if it is out of the 5-year structural warranty period?  . . D . .
After reading some of the issues about the wheel wells I have thought about removing the fenders and wheels, then masking the side panel just below the fender screws and then spraying several coats of Flex-seal where the side panels meet the wheel well and continuing that underneath to coat the entire underside of the wheel well.  . . .  Any thoughts on this approach? . . E . .

. . A . .    That is my best guess.

. . B . .    I do not know what the Brittle/Black/Man-made Material is.

. . C . .    I did not 'raise' the sunken floor area.  I've just dried-out and re-bonded the upper vinyl
               The tank bottoms are resting on the axle due to the sagging.
               The tank tops are normally in contact with the floor bottom and still are.

. . D . .    I decided not to make an issue of this with nuCamp as my rig only has a
               one-year structural warranty period.

. . E . .      If my leak source is the wheel well area it is due to the factory sealing
               material failing after extended usage.  So any additional 'sealing' you can
               provide won't hurt - - - belt and suspenders. 

brorob

I just ran across this post while looking for something else on this site so I wanted to provide some information from my own experience.

I have a 2004 DM T@B that needed a floor repair so I decided to buy a new floor blank from nuCamp.  I purchased the new floor blank from nuCamp in late 2021.  The floor is the same construction as the one shown in this post, aluminum tubing for the frame sandwiched by 1/8" black composite with white foam in-between the framing.  Also the extrusion of the aluminum tubing had the same wall thickness as my original 2004 floor, I assumed it would be thicker.

To say the issue is caused by water intrusion is BS, IMO.  My floor failed after traveling in the camper for a few months, in dry desert areas with little rain.  There is also absolutely no plumbing in our T@B, so no chance of anything leaking.

See the picture I uploaded, the crack shown, which was still getting bigger before I removed the floor, was in the walking area in front of the galley.  This was caused from the 1/8" composite on the bottom of the floor losing it's adhesion to the aluminum frame, which in result caused the composite on top to sag and eventually crack.  I think a support beam under this area may have prevented this, but the AL-KO frame did not have a support in that area. 

I don't know what model years have that same floor installed or how many of these were installed in DM models, but I'm guessing this will continue to be a problem with any model that has this floor installed.  Ours may have failed so soon since we were traveling in our camper full time, so other owners may have a problem waiting to happen.  If there was a support piece installed under this area when I installed the floor, this may have been prevented.

MuttonChops

@brorob;  Interesting. Thanks for the post/picture