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Critique my de-winterizing checklist for a T@B 400

Jay_and_KatJay_and_Kat Member Posts: 215
in Heating/Plumbing & Winterizing
OK, so the wife and I worked up a checklist for de-winterizing our T@B 400 this year (second year of ownership,) and I'm just curious what others with more experience with a camper think.
What might we be missing, what's doing more work than we need to, that sort of thing.

Quite a bit of this can be done in parallel if you've got two or more people (I suppose if we'd had kids, we could shanghai them into helping.)  Some of the steps were cribbed from winterizing / de-winterizing documents previously posted here (for example, the de-winterize and sanitize a 320 w/Nautilus doc) and some are me just thinking "what might go wrong / be broken / gremlins chewed on over the winter" and making a list to check those things.

I've got this in a Word doc at home and did my best to carry over the indenting.

De-winterization checklist

  • Verify all drain valves closed
  • *  Under bed hot water tank yellow valve
  • *  Outside water drains
  • Flush RV antifreeze
  • *  Set Nautilus to “City Water”
  • *  Connect flow restrictor to hose bib
  • *  Connect hose to flow restrictor and Nautilus
  • *  Turn on water at hose bib
  • *  Open each faucet one at a time
  • *  *  Cold, then hot
  • *  *  Wait for water to flow clear
  • *  Flush toilet until water flows clear
  • *  Drain black tank into Rhino tank
  • *  *  Dump tank into house toilet
  • *  Drain grey tank into Rhino tank
  • *  *  Dump tank into house toilet
  • Sanitize water system
  • *  Set Nautilus to “Sanitize”
  • *  Mix 1/3 cup bleach in 1gal bucket with water
  • *  Utilize pump to suck in mix
  • *  Connect hose to flow restrictor and hose bib
  • *  Set Nautilus to “Powerfill”
  • *  Fill tank
  • *  Turn on water pump
  • *  Run each faucet, hot and cold, until bleach is smelled
  • *  Let tank and lines sit for several hours to sanitize
  • Clean inside of camper
  • *  Wipe down all surfaces with damp cloth
  • *  Wipe down all surfaces with bleach wipes
  • *  Wipe down inside of refrigerator with damp cloth
  • *  Wipe down inside of refrigerator with bleach wipe
  • *  Sweep floor
  • Clean all dishware / cookware
  • *  Take in house and put in dishwasher
  • *  Blue tape all dishware cookware to check use
  • Check propane system
  • *  Check estimated propane level w/TankCheck app
  • *  Open propane tank valve
  • *  Turn on both stove burners
  • *  Turn off stove
  • *  Close propane tank valve
  • Check electric system
  • *  Connect to shore power
  • *  Plug outlet tester into all outlest
  • *  Turn on TV
  • *  Turn on all lights
  • Clean / check outside of camper
  • *  Open all windows
  • *  Wipe down all window seals with damp cloth
  • *  Wipe down camper surface around windows with damp cloth
  • *  Check all roof fittings / caulk for cracking / peeling
  • *  Close windows
  • *  Wash outside of camper
  • Flush sanitizing water
  • *  Set Nautilus to “Sanitize”
  • *  Open low point drains, let system drain out
  • *  Refill fresh tank, then drain, repeat until no bleach smell
  • *  Set Nautilus to “City Water”
  • *  Open faucets and run water until no bleach smell
  • *  If returning camper to storage, drain all tanks
  • *  If taking camping, fill fresh tank
  • System checks
  • *  Refrigerator temperature check
  • *  All flashlights work
  • *  Spare batteries
  • *  Phone charge cords
  • *  Check Alde glycol level (tank in toilet side, front storage cubby
  • *  Check tire pressures, including spare
  • *  All vent fans work

----------------------------------------------------------
Jay and Kat
Tow vehicle:  2022 Jeep Gladiator Sport S + tow package
Camper:  2022 T@B 400 Boondock w/Norcold 3-way fridge
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    subkronsubkron Member Posts: 148
    Just some food for thought:

    - misspelled outlet as outlest
    - should check system batteries, solar charging (with Victron)
    - seems like this is in order of tasks, I suggest either move "sweep the floor" to end or add another "sweep the floor" to the end of the process. 
    - what is "Blue tape all dishware cookware to check use"?
    - check Aldi - hot water operational as minimum, heat as deemed necessary
    - check AC
    - check trailer running/brake lights
    - would you lubricate (as necessary) stabilizers at start of season or end?
    2022 T@B 400 Boondock
    2015 RAM 1500 Outdoorsman Quad Cab
    South Jersey
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    pthomas745pthomas745 Moderator Posts: 3,659
    The confusion that seems to come up the most for users here and on the FB groups is using the "wrong" video or file for the wrong trailer, and wrong year.
    So, if you could highlight the Model and Year is big, bold letters that would really help.
    The changes that have been made in the trailers in the last three model years make each model "unique" in the placement of where the low point drains are, etc.  The 2019 320 (no Nautilus) is different from the 2020/2021  320 with Nautilus, and it seems the 2022 320 with Nautilus has the "low point" drains down on the frame, like the 400's. So, the potential for confusion (and frustration) just increases.
    2017 Outback
    Towed by 2014 Touareg TDi
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    Jay_and_KatJay_and_Kat Member Posts: 215
    subkron said:
    Just some food for thought:

    - misspelled outlet as outlest
    - should check system batteries, solar charging (with Victron)
    - seems like this is in order of tasks, I suggest either move "sweep the floor" to end or add another "sweep the floor" to the end of the process. 
    - what is "Blue tape all dishware cookware to check use"?
    - check Aldi - hot water operational as minimum, heat as deemed necessary
    - check AC
    - check trailer running/brake lights
    - would you lubricate (as necessary) stabilizers at start of season or end?
    • Oops  :)
    • I'll add this under the check the electrical system
    • It kind of is, and was kind of a "stream of thought" order, but yes, one last sweep would be a good idea
    • So a trick I read to reduce how much "stuff" you take in your camper, was to put a piece of blue painters tape on every dish, glass, etc.  When you use an item, remove the tape from it.  At the end of the season, when putting the camper to bed for the winter, anything that still has tape on it, likely won't be needed next season and can go in the house.
    • Good point
    • Added this
    • This should be done every trip, which in our case would also include taking the camper from the storage lot to the house, but yes, good idea.
    • Um, they need to be lubed?  I know the bearings should be re-greased every season, didn't realize the stabilizers did
    All told, excellent points and the list will be updated.
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Jay and Kat
    Tow vehicle:  2022 Jeep Gladiator Sport S + tow package
    Camper:  2022 T@B 400 Boondock w/Norcold 3-way fridge
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    Jay_and_KatJay_and_Kat Member Posts: 215
    @pthomas745 good point.  I'll largely admit this is mostly for the wife and I and our 2022 T@B 400 Boondock, but still a good point, considering at some point in the future someone might find this topic and be stumped trying to match it up to their 2050 T@B 5000 Hover   =)

    I mean, we will have flying cars by 2050, right, so it stands to reason campers will at least be able to hover by then, right?
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Jay and Kat
    Tow vehicle:  2022 Jeep Gladiator Sport S + tow package
    Camper:  2022 T@B 400 Boondock w/Norcold 3-way fridge
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    pthomas745pthomas745 Moderator Posts: 3,659
    As the battery setups get bigger, I would figure hovering would be easy by then!

    Checklists are always great to have, and yours is a good example. 
    2017 Outback
    Towed by 2014 Touareg TDi
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    Richard_RRichard_R Member Posts: 38
    @Jay_and_Kat: Thanks for your list. I'm new at this and I'm getting ready to de-winterize for the first time, so I can use all the advice I can get.

    I'm a little confused about one thing you do in the sanitization procedure. Maybe I'm not completely understanding what you're doing, but it seems like if you top off the fresh water tank after pumping the sanitizing solution into it, you're diluting it, perhaps considerably depending on what volumes you're using. Any thoughts on that? 
    — Richard R.
    Front Range of Colorado
    2023 TAB 400 Boondock
    2022 GMC Canyon
    2023 F150 Hybrid (PowerBoost drivetrain)
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    Sharon_is_SAMSharon_is_SAM Administrator Posts: 9,497
    edited April 2023
    @Richard_R - the 25 gallon tank of the 2023 400 should be sanitized with a total of 1/2 cup of chlorine bleach if you are using city water.  Dilute the mix in 1 or 2 gallons of water and siphon it in, then fill the remainder of the tank with water.  So 1/2 cup bleach total in the 25 gallon tank.  If the solution is too heavy on the bleach, it will take an awful lot of flushing to get rid of the odor.  
    Sharon / 2017 T@B CSS / 2015 Toyota Sienna Minivan / Westlake, Ohio
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    Jay_and_KatJay_and_Kat Member Posts: 215
    @Richard_R I was going by the method recommended in the "How to Dewinterize and Sanitize the TaB 320 with Nautilus" document I found on here, which suggests 1/3 cup bleach in a gallon bucket, then finish filling the fresh tank from your hose.

    I'll probably update the document though, to go with @Sharon_is_SAM recommendation of 1/2 cup of bleach, seeing as the 400 has a bigger fresh tank.
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Jay and Kat
    Tow vehicle:  2022 Jeep Gladiator Sport S + tow package
    Camper:  2022 T@B 400 Boondock w/Norcold 3-way fridge
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    Richard_RRichard_R Member Posts: 38
    Thanks @Sharon_is_SAM. That's interesting. The nuCamp video for de-winterizing the 400 doesn't really say that. It says to add some amount of sanitizing solution to the tank at 0.5 cups bleach per gal (doesn't say how much total volume, but he is using a full 5 gal bucket), flush it through the system in dry camping mode, *then* fill the tank with fresh water and run that through the system to rinse it out. Concentration of 0.5 cups bleach per 1 gal water = ~3.0%; 0.5 cups per 25 gals = ~0.1%. The latter seems very low to me, although a quick google search indicates that what you're suggesting seems to be the norm. The Nautilus P3 manual is even more vague. (https://www.bandbmolders.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Nautilus-P3-User-2.pdf)  



    — Richard R.
    Front Range of Colorado
    2023 TAB 400 Boondock
    2022 GMC Canyon
    2023 F150 Hybrid (PowerBoost drivetrain)
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    Richard_RRichard_R Member Posts: 38
    edited April 2023
    @Sharon_is_SAM: So I'm guessing that 0.5 cups/25 gals is dilute enough that you don't really have to worry about another fresh water rinse...?

    And thanks so much for your help on this...
    — Richard R.
    Front Range of Colorado
    2023 TAB 400 Boondock
    2022 GMC Canyon
    2023 F150 Hybrid (PowerBoost drivetrain)
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    Jay_and_KatJay_and_Kat Member Posts: 215
    Rather interesting trying to sort out just how much you might want to use...
    CDC guidelines for a disinfecting solution is 1/3cup bleach to 1gal cool water
    Clorox guideline is the same (unless you want a solution to kill strep, listeria, MRSA, in which case it's 1/4cup to 3/4gal)

    But those also presume you're going to leave the solution in contact with whatever you're trying to disinfect.  So I suspect that's part of the reason behind leaving the solution in the tank / lines for "a couple hours," it gives it more time to work, and being out of the light, it doesn't break down as fast.
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Jay and Kat
    Tow vehicle:  2022 Jeep Gladiator Sport S + tow package
    Camper:  2022 T@B 400 Boondock w/Norcold 3-way fridge
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    manyman297manyman297 Member Posts: 1,185
    So now I’m totally confused. I’ve only sanitized/dewinterized my tanks once so it’s been a minute.

    I understand everything up to the point of running bleach/water solution through the plumbing and out of the fixtures. 

    The way it’s described you put the nautilus in dry camp mode and then run the solution through all of your hot and cold lines including the Alde. But I thought we aren’t supposed to run bleach through the Alde? Wouldn’t it make more sense to put the nautilus in “winterize” mode and run the bleach through the system to avoid the Alde?

    I’m guessing when I sanitized last I probably ran bleach through the Alde.
    2021 400 BD
    2020 Tacoma TRD Off-Road 
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    Jay_and_KatJay_and_Kat Member Posts: 215
    edited April 2023
    @manyman297, you may be right, and I may need to tweak the directions further.  I suspect the directions I'm using for sanitizing a 320 with a Nautilus may not be quite right / safe.

    Edit:
    So, watched the sanitizing video @Richard_R linked above, and you DO run the sanitize solution through the hot water heater.  I suspect the reason you can do this, and safely is, the hot water heater will be off so you're not heating the bleach (which would then give off chlorine gas which would be very, very bad.)  Then you flush the system thoroughly with fresh water, including the hot water heater. 
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Jay and Kat
    Tow vehicle:  2022 Jeep Gladiator Sport S + tow package
    Camper:  2022 T@B 400 Boondock w/Norcold 3-way fridge
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    pthomas745pthomas745 Moderator Posts: 3,659
    edited April 2023
    That video from NuCamp has confused owners since they posted it.  Messages were sent to them explaining the amount of bleach added in their video was incorrect, and superseded every manual they ever wrote.  There are comments on the YouTube page that points out how wrong it is.  But...it is still up there.
    My 2017 manual says use 1/4 cup of bleach to a gallon of water, and add that gallon to a full tank of water.  For the 400, with the bigger tank, the manuals said 1/2 cup of water to a gallon of water, and add that gallon to a full tank.
    The more bleach you dump in the tank, the more times you will have to flush it to get the bleach smell out.
    My 2017 manual says to pump the solution through the lines to the faucets, and leave it "at least three hours". 
    As Dr. Ratkity (Phd, Immunology) said in an older thread: "you aren't going to be doing surgery in the trailer".  A weak solution of  bleach, a couple of hours in the plumbing, and done.  Unless you live on well water, or figure you might have had some non-chlorinated water source in your trailer, you are basically chlorinating an already chlorinated plumbing setup.
    The easiest way to handle the "bleach in the Alde tank" confusion is...bypass the Alde.
    Here are my favorite Dr.@Ratkity threads where she gives some clear explanations of what we are trying to do when santizing.

    2017 Outback
    Towed by 2014 Touareg TDi
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    manyman297manyman297 Member Posts: 1,185
    @pthomas745
    Yeah, their video is awful. Even to the point where he’s saying “and turn on your pump” and he’s actually turning it off.

    I’ve completely written off any instructions Nucamp provides since I know how terrible they are at keeping everything consistent. I’d rather rely on this forum.

    So if I run the solution through the plumbing using the “winterize” setting that should bypass the Alde right? 
    2021 400 BD
    2020 Tacoma TRD Off-Road 
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    Sharon_is_SAMSharon_is_SAM Administrator Posts: 9,497
    @Jay_and_Kat - (I wrote the “How to Dewinterize and Sanitize” document intended for the 320 with Nautilus with a 19 gallon fresh water tank.  At the time, the Bypass Valve was a separate valve.  I may need to recreate these directions now that both the 320 and 400 are using the P3 Nautilus system.)
     
    The CDC guidelines of 1/3 cup of bleach per gallon of water concentration is for disinfecting not sanitizing which is defined as simply reducing the number of germs after cleaning a surface.  If you are using chlorinated city water, you should only need to sanitize your tank.  If you are using untreated well water in your tank, then the risk of contamination is higher and you would need a different concentration.

    I went down the rabbit hole again on this topic.  If you break it down into ppm of chlorine bleach, you sanitize with 50-200 ppm. 
     1 TBS/gallon of water yields 200 ppm = 0.5 oz/gallon.  So, if you do the math, 66 ppm (higher than recommended minimum) is available with the following:

    12 gallon 320 tank - 1/4 C
    19 gallon 320 tank - 1/3 C
    25 gallon 400 tank - 1/2 C

    @Richard_R - even with the lower concentration of bleach, you will need at least one more additional rinse.
    Sharon / 2017 T@B CSS / 2015 Toyota Sienna Minivan / Westlake, Ohio
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    Richard_RRichard_R Member Posts: 38
    Thanks again @Sharon_is_SAM. It’s really disappointing that nuCamp botched such a simple but important procedure. 
    — Richard R.
    Front Range of Colorado
    2023 TAB 400 Boondock
    2022 GMC Canyon
    2023 F150 Hybrid (PowerBoost drivetrain)
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    Sharon_is_SAMSharon_is_SAM Administrator Posts: 9,497
    I am not sure if it is a simple misunderstanding on their part, a miscommunication or they are erring on the side of caution.  Whatever it is, if you use that much bleach in our small, plastic tanks, you will be wasting a lot of water rinsing.
    Sharon / 2017 T@B CSS / 2015 Toyota Sienna Minivan / Westlake, Ohio
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    Jay_and_KatJay_and_Kat Member Posts: 215
    I think I'd lean towards an over-abundance of caution on nuCamps part.  Think about it, if they went with the lower concentration, at some point, someone's going to drink from their water system that they didn't QUITE get sanitized (or they're on well water,) get sick or worse, and go after nuCamp with a lawyer-a-pult.

    To say nothing of the bad press and what that would do to nuCamp.  So, err on the side of caution, use a higher concentration than might be needed, and let the owner worry about the extra water they'll need to flush the system afterwards.  Because, really, how's the owner going to KNOW they're using more water to flush than they might otherwise be using, unless they go down the "how much bleach should I be using, really?"  Most won't (heck, I really didn't, I just saw the rabbit hole and took a quick peek in!)
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Jay and Kat
    Tow vehicle:  2022 Jeep Gladiator Sport S + tow package
    Camper:  2022 T@B 400 Boondock w/Norcold 3-way fridge
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    RobermcmRobermcm Member Posts: 69
    Old thread, but I’ll risk asking a question. Has anyone considered sanitizing with sparkle bright or similar chemicals used in the beer making industry? Safer, low odor, a little sudsy. But great disinfectant. 
    2023 Tab 400
    2015 Audi Q7 TDI
    Northern Ohio

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    pthomas745pthomas745 Moderator Posts: 3,659
    @Robermcm Welcome to the Forums.  Don't ever be afraid to ask anything, at any time, from any thread. 
    There are a lot of threads about what is actually happening when we try to sanitize the water systems.  We have a resident PhD in Immunology, Dr. @Ratkity who said something like this: "You are not trying to do surgery in the trailer."  There are lots of threads about this topic, and a few ideas have popped up from time to time, especially options for owners who might be sensitive to bleach, etc.
    Here is one with some Dr. R comments.
    This thread mentions something called "StarSan" and has comments from other home brewers.
    And, the thread where Dr. R mentions the surgery example.  And, explains exactly what the whole point of sanitizing.

    And, here are all the rest. 




    2017 Outback
    Towed by 2014 Touareg TDi
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