Factory Lithium Setups in the new 2023 320 models

Sharon_is_SAM

This nuCamp video explaining the Lithium Package just posted:
https://youtu.be/O04CKJNr1Ws

Black93fiveO

Does anyone have pictures of where Nucamp connected the ground for the inverter?  Also where they grounded the batteries to the chassis?  I'm guessing they took a heavy Guage cable after the shunt and went through the floor to get a connection point to the chassis somewhere.  Any help will be most appreciated.  I'm currently adding 4 more ut1300 for a total of 6 and a victron multiplus 2000 and I'd like to follow Nucamps install strategy.

otr_320

jamesdn1948 said:

For those of you with a 2023 320 with the factory lithium package. Are you aware that the 2kw inverter charger has a built in ups function? With the inverter switch in the "on" position commercial power is passed thru to the trailer. If the power fails the inverter switches the trailer loads to the batteries. This works on mine if the loads are light but if the Air8 is running it's a no go. The ac quits (doesn't restart) and anything electronic is reset including the 12v radio. On one occasion the inverter went into an error state. What's up with that? Has anyone experienced this? Too bad the ac doesn't restart after a power failure.

There may be a number of reasons why the Victron Multiplus 2000 could not power the Air8.  Could be a UPS/relay issue (excessively slow transfer time) which prevented a smooth transition of power.  There may have been other 120vac appliances on at the same time as the Air8 exceeding the Victron's current capability.  The cabling used between the batteries and the Victron could be undersized (or badly terminated), limiting the output current of the Victron.

Did you ever try to power the Air8 with the Victron under normal conditions (without activating the UPS)?  The biggest hurdle for the Victron is supplying the 32a of (LRA) inrush current to start the Air8.  The Victron's 4000w "peak" power rating doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in this regard.

jamesdn1948

The Victron and two BattleBorns will power the air8 with battery power under normal conditions. The problem was when city power was lost and the Victron attempted to switch to inverter power. The compressor stalled and caused an inverter overload. This was cured with an Easy Start install. The ES senses the switching power spike, switches the compressor off, and restarts it on battery power after three minutes.

otr_320

jamesdn1948 said:

The Victron and two BattleBorns will power the air8 with battery power under normal conditions. The problem was when city power was lost and the Victron attempted to switch to inverter power. The compressor stalled and caused an inverter overload. This was cured with an Easy Start install. The ES senses the switching power spike, switches the compressor off, and restarts it on battery power after three minutes.

I'm a tad confused with your reply.  Would the Victron/Battleborn *start* the Air8 *before* you installed the Micro Air Easy Start?  *Not* referring to any lost power contingency, just simply starting the Air8 while powering it with the Victron inverter and Battleborn batteries under normal day-to-day operating conditions.

For what it's worth, a Micro Air Easy Start is *only* active or necessary, for less than 1 sec., when the compressor is started.  If a *successful* shore to inverter power transfer is accomplished while the Air8's compressor is active, the Micro Air Easy Start plays no part in that successful transfer of power because the compressor does *not* need to be restarted.

jamesdn1948

Yes the Victron/Battleborn would start the air8 prior to the ES install. The ES was installed to take advantage of its "compressor protection" feature where it stops the compressor in case of a city power failure, brownout, dirty commercial power, etc. and restarts it after a three minute delay. You are familiar with that feature right? In my case I needed a way to stop the compressor to avoid stalling and overloading the inverter locking it up in an alarm state. So the ES senses this very short power interruption when the ups function is activated and stops the compressor. After the three minute time delay the compressor is restarted and the air8 happily runs on the batteries. Without the ES if the compressor is running and the commercial power fails the Victron goes into alarm from the current surge and kills all power in the trailer. Due to keeping our pets in the trailer when we are out and about I needed a way to keep the ac operational in the event of a power failure. This is what works for me. Your situation and solution may be different.

otr_320

Jim, thanks for  the explanation.  Yes, I'm familiar with the Micro Air Easy Start voltage protection/delay features; however, I've never seen this secondary function of the Micro Air used in the manner you're using it.  As you probably know, the Micro Air's primary, gold-star feature (and why it costs so much) is its ability to dramatically reduce the LRA of the compressor---a pretty remarkable feat of electrical engineering.  Interesting how this feature is really not necessary for your particular application.  

Have to wonder what the issue is with the Victron transfer/UPS function.  We had a generic 30a transfer relay in our previous RV and it would seamlessly transfer our 11k BTU a/c from shore to inverter and back without a hiccup.

MarineFriend

I appreciate this system. I have used it for a year now. It has numerous components, and looks complex, and it’s all in a few compartments. 

I think it’s a great first edition Lithium T@B.

I have used the Victron equipment in my old T@B for 6 years. I’ll tell you what… those nice blue boxes kept my batteries in a top notch healthy condition. I love the App and I looked at it on my phone multiple times a day. I even had 320 watt external array hooked up with another array stuck to the top of my camper at 136 watts. AND I was off grid 98% of the time.  I LOVED IT. I LOVED IT. I LOVED IT. With ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS.

And as far as the messy look… I like being able to access every component and its wiring. I have already added an external array and installed another Victron solar charging box by myself. Not rocket science, hardware or software. Victron’s boxes talk to each other on their own network AND collect/store charging data so you can study performance. Plenty of room to install another Victron on the diver side compartment with a solar panel connection outlet in my valve box.

So let me revise my above impression of this system. It’s awesome. It’s fun. It’s reliable.

And no problems on my this new 320 as well over the last year.

And thanks for ALL the photos and diagrams above. Very helpful. And as NuCamp comes into their own on this very new configuration, we can look forward to more and more laymen and advance Lithium user guide material.

As far as I’m concerned, they chose the best components ever. I was thrilled when I saw these blue boxes in my new 320 Boondocker.

And you will see for yourself.

bobctwin

Hello @DustD,
Thank you so much for the photos of the NuCamp factory 320 Lithium Upgrade package.
This and the associated discussions have been a big help.

As @Black93fiveO asked, is there a chance you could see if you can spot the inverter chassis ground that NuCamp installed?
In your photo,

on the left end of the MultiPlus inverter I can spot the battery 2/0 cables, Red from the +12 and Black from the load side of the SmartShunt, entering the inverter's connection space.  It appears that NuCamp connected a pair of 6 AWG wires to feed the DC to the distribution box. There should also be a 2/0 or at least a 1/0 (hopefully black) cable connected to the inverter in the center of the terminal area between the battery/ DC cables and the AC 120V cables. 
This is the inverter chassis ground cable that should penetrate the floor and be connected to the chassis frame.  If you can spot this cable, see where it penetrates the floor and share it with us that would be very helpful. 

The Inverter manual shows the connections on page 22.  The Chassis ground is designated as L in the drawing. see: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/MultiPlus_2kVA_120V/24547-MultiPlus_2kVA-pdf-en.pdf

One more question: 

Is the main AC breaker in your distribution box a 30Amp or 50Amp breaker?

I ask this because the MultiPlus inverter, if configured with "PowerAssist" enabled, can add up to 16 additional Amps from your batteries to the 30Amp shore power if there is an 120V AC demand above 30Amps. 

See: Page 10 "AC Out" in the MultiPlus manual.

As a result, 6/3 wire should be installed between the MultiPlus and the distribution fuse box and a 50Amp breaker should replace the 30Amp breaker.  Please let us know what you find.
Thanks again for all of your effort.

 

elbolillo

@bobctwin The distribution panel in the Tab will be the limiting factor as it will be a 30 amp panel, NOT a 50 amp panel. You most definitely would not want to put a 50 amp breaker in a panel only designed for 50 amp.

bobctwin

@elbolillo Thanks for pointing this out.
The folks at NuCamp told me that the factory Lithium Upgrade includes a WFCO WF-8930/50 distribution only panel in place of the WF-8735-AD converter/distribution panel normally shipped in 2023 and 2024 320s. see: https://www.wfcotech.com/product-category/distribution-panels/wf-893050-series/
I assumed that @DustD has this distribution only panel installed in his factory system, thus the question as to the main breaker type NuCamp installed in that factory build.

Your point is very important to anyone doing a Lithium upgrade retrofit in a unit with the 8735 panel. 
I see three retrofit options here:
1) Disable PowerAssist in the Victron Multiplus and remove/disable the now redundant 8735 converter, stick with a 30Amp max system.

2) Replace the 8735 with an 8930/50 distribution only panel (this unit requires a larger cutout in the 320 seat cabinet system but provides additional DC circuits for things like Black Canyon tank heaters etc. which are now fused with in-line fuses inconveniently distributed throughout the build), install 6/3 wire from the MultiPlus to the 8950, install a 50Amp main breaker.

3) (If the WF-8735/40 can support a 40Amp breaker) Enable PowerAssist but limit it to 40Amps total, disable/remove the 8735's converter, install 8/3 wire from the Multiplus to the 8735 and install a 40Amp main breaker.
to verify this last option, I have a letter off to WFCO inquiring as to the differences between the 8735 and the 8740.   

elbolillo

@bobctwin That is good to know about the distribution panel. I had inquired of a couple owners regarding the distribution panel in the ‘23 Tab 400 with factory lithium and never got any response from anyone. I did my own install on our ‘23 Tab and left the WFCO 8955 which has a max main circuit of 30 amps. I didn’t bother replacing, but rather just disconnected the converter and only use it as a distribution panel.

DustD

@bobctwin Sorry I missed your request until now. I took a couple more photos of that area left of multiples, hopefully that helps with your question. 

bobctwin

@DustD Thank you! 
In your second photo I see the inverter chassis ground (bare copper wire, AWG unknown) exit the inverter along with the 6 AWG red +12V output and the blue SmartDongle communications cable.  The ground wire then dives under the inverter mounting box with the other cables.  From there it could dive through the floor to the chassis or continue over to the driver's side.  
Does this bare copper wire continue over, emerging from under the inverter mounting box, and over to your distribution panel?

If it does it may be bonded to the a similar bare copper wire, emerging from the distribution box, which then dives down through a hole in the floor behind the distribution panel.

Also: could you take pictures of your distribution (breaker and fuse) panel as mounted in your 320 and with the cover open so we can read the panel model number and breaker values?

 @elbolillo and I are wondering what model panel was installed and what main breaker amperage is installed.

Thanks for all of your help.

DustD

@bobctwin. You are correct. It appears to go bare all the way to the panel.  Front and back panel photos attached. First pic is to the right of the multiplus to see them in route.

bobctwin

@DustD  Thanks again!
It is interesting that NuCamp did not provide for your use of Victron MultiPlus "Power Assist".
As described in my February 16 post above, your MultiPlus inverter, if configured with "PowerAssist" enabled, can add up to 16 additional Amps from your batteries to the 30Amp shore power if there is a 120V AC demand above 30Amps. 

See: Page 10 "AC Out" in the MultiPlus manual.

For more info, see this excellent video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lS6IAoxd28

As a result, 6/3 wire should be installed between the MultiPlus and the distribution fuse box and a 50Amp breaker should replace the 30Amp breaker. 

If 6/3 wire and a corresponding 50 Amp Main Breaker is not installed as is the case for your unit with a 30Amp main breaker, then you want to ensure that "PowerAssist is turned off in your MultiPlus configuration.

It's too bad that NuCamp is not providing for this great feature.  It alone would sell me on the factory Lithium upgrade.

One last request: 
Can you please provide a photo of your driver side bench including the Distribution panel.  This distribution only panel is larger than the stock WF-8735-AD converter so it would be nice to see how your WF-8930/50 fits in the cabinetry and bed pull frame.
Thanks so much.

DustD

@bobctwin Thanks for all the info, unfortunate it’s not fully utilized when assembled. Here are the requested pics. 

asfizer

I just bought a 2023, new never titled before, 320 S BD. I’m installing Lithium. I want to use a DC/DC charger as well so to charge while driving. I have the WFCO sent in already for the firmware change to lithium. My guestion is my TV’s alternator is in danger using a DC/DC charger and going to lithium? I have a Honda Pilot with a 130 amp output alternator. Should I be cautious and use a small 18 amp charger, or is going bigger with a 40 amp okay, safe? 

I have at the present a 100ah lithium battery, and a 280ah battery. Yes I first bought the 100, then got a great deal the 280 and jumped on it. I also have a 2000w inverter I bought after ordering the bigger battery. My questions are, I don’t want to burn up my TV’s alternator. I’m I safe going bigger with the 40A charger and the 200ah battery? Or do I need to be cautious and use the 18a charger and 100ah battery. Can I use the 2000w inverter no matter which batter size I use? 

I also realize I need to upgrade the wires in my TV from its battery and alternator to the rear. Using  Anderson connectors to the camper then back to the charger and lithium battery as will with the larger wires. As you see I’m pretty ignorant on what to do. I have an experienced rv repair guy doing all this for me, but I don’t think he’s all that knowledgeable on lithium upgrades. 

Thanks for any help on this big change in power in my 320. 

bjn2

The wire gauge from the 7-pin connector will limit the amount of current the trailer can draw from your TV. 10 ga. wire can draw up to 30A. You'd blow a fuse or melt the wire before you could draw more than that from the alternator. And with the length of the wire run, the voltage drop that length creates will likely mean the power from the TV won't meet the threshold for charge controllers to kick in. The DC/DC charger installation has to address the wire capacity issue and it also bumps up the voltage. 

Your TV likely already has an isolator relay on the tow harness, but you could add one if you don't. If you can measure 12V with a multimeter between the +12V and ground pins on the TV's connector with ignition off, then you don't have an isolator.

I suggest you also look at adding solar capacity (portable so you can place it for best exposure) in addition to your exploration of TV charging. 

asfizer

Thanks bjn2 for your input. I do already have two 120w solar suitcase type panels from Bluetti. So that helps for sure. I have a 2,000w solar generator too. I know it's over kill doing all this on my little 320, but I prefer getting more on board power and leaving the solar ginny at home or in the TV for the 12v fridge. 

So if I run a 8ga wire to say using up to a 30A, or less, dc/dc charger I'll be safe with the 130A output in my TV? If so then I can use the 280ah battery and the 2,000w inverter, correct? I want all the lithium I can get safely with what I have in my TV, except I know I need to do the wire upgrade.

I have both the 100ah and the 280ah batteries already. I was hoping to use the 280, but if it's to much for my TV power supply (Besides the wire upgrade, I'll send it back. The cost of return shipping is cheaper than spending money on a big upgrade than would my TV can muster. I'll stay with the 100ah and be safe first.

I'll check on the isolator relay too. Thanks for the suggestion. My Plot has the factory tow package so maybe that is part of the package if not standard equipment anyway.  

Thanks for all the suggestions and info.

NMSunshine

This has been a really helpful thread, I'm trying to figure out how to to a phased transition from the stock 2021 Tab 320s with Lead Acid battery to a Lithium setup (with appropriate additional external solar) that could run the Air8 for 2-3 hours under specific conditions. Some really good ideas here for me to copy as far as adding on to the existing setup without a huge amount of rewiring. No real questions right now, just a thank you to everyone who has contributed above!

Yoshi_TAB

Hi,

Look at my install for ideas.  2021 320 Lithium and Inverter Install (Complete)  Start at the newest posts as I went through a few iterations.  I moved my batteries inside w/o cutting any holes, installed an inverter and transfer switch.  Have used it for 2 seasons with no issues.   By biggest lesson learned was to make sure the inverter DC circuit wires are properly torqued.  Mine were tight, but I was generating some heat.  Once tighten down, there is no heat build up as measured with an infrared therm.   I've never run my batteries down, but based on my shunt data, the Air 8 will run about 3 hrs with about 200 Ah of storage.  Mostly use the inverter to reheat food in microwave and boil water with an electric kettle when we have no shore power.  I've also slightly changed my wire diagram from the final version posted (moved the bus bar wire to battery to in front of the  class T fuse).  Also added a Victron IP 22 charger.    I can send it if your interested.  Good luck with your project.

NMSunshine

Thanks! More good tips.
Right now I think my plan is something similar to what you did @Yoshi_TAB - add LiFePO4 batteries (still confirming sizing and fit but there's good options from everyone's designs I'm thinking 300ah since prices keep going down), get an inverter with a built-in transfer switch and run that inline between the WFCO 8735P and the Air8 on the existing 120V circuit from the WFCO.