Please help jschemel

ericnliz

These folks posted on my wall that they were having trouble with their 2 way fridge. Light is on, but won't get cold. I don't know the year, or model of their trailer. I wish I could help them, but I have the 3 way Norcold, and am not at all familiar with the 2 way. Can someone familiar with this please try to help them, THANK YOU!

USWildflowers

Is the internal temperature control knob turned to something other than "Off?" Mine usually cools down fairly quickly on a setting of "2". The light will come on even if the temperature setting is "Off".

ericnliz

USWildflowers, Don't know, haven't heard back yet.

jschemel

Thank you ericnliz for your help.  I know others have had similar problems so this is what we found out and how we "fixed" it.                       

Our 2015 T@B CS-S has a Norcold NR740BB refrigerator located in the rear hatch-back kitchen.  The refrigerator was designed to be operated on 12VDC or 110VAC, and the dealer told us that it switched between the available power options.  We did notice that the refrigerator drained the battery very quickly when we dry camped and the power converter ran when plugged into 110VAC. None of the breakers or fuses were labeled on the power panel, so we could not easily determine where the refrigerator was getting its power.  We requested a wiring diagram from Pleasant Valley, but they did not provide one. 

The refrigerator stopped working last spring, and Norcold told us to take it to a local shop that could do a repair under warrantee.  The thermostat appeared to have failed, and was back ordered.  We decided to leave on a short trip the day after the inspection at the local shop.  When we arrived at our camp, the refrigerator was running and the coils under the unit were too hot to touch.  We could not turn it off with the controls.  It was clear that if it could not be turned off it would start a fire.  We switched off all the breakers, but that did not stop the refrigerator.  After pulling a few fuses, we found one that did shut it down.  It certainly would have been easier if we knew the fuses or breakers that were in the circuit.  Even though pulling a 12VDC fuse stopped the refrigerator, we were still worried that there was a 110VAC connection that might make it start up again.

After returning home, we contacted Pleasant Valley and were able to talk to a technician about the wiring.  We found out that the 2-way refrigerators were never connected to 110VAC when they are located in the rear hatch-back kitchen of the CS-S model.  We were very disappointed that we were given misinformation by our dealer and that schematics or wiring diagrams for our T@B could not be provided by the factory.

When the refrigerator was returned for repair, it was clear that only 12VDC wiring was connected.  The plug for attachment to 110VAC was near the bottom of the refrigerator, so it was easy to drill a hole through the bulkhead and lead the cord out under the side seat.  We have connected this to the power box that supplies the Alde.  Since we usually use the Alde with gas, there is no need to wire in a separate circuit breaker for the refrigerator.  We have left the fuse for 12VDC out of the power box, so the refrigerator is now running only on 110VAC.  When we decide to run the refrigerator on 12VDC, we might wire it to a separate battery so it does not affect our other appliances and lights.  This would be easy to do because the refrigerator is mounted with four screws that are easily removed with a #2 square driver.  The refrigerator slips right out, but you have to be careful to be sure none of the wiring is pinched when putting it back in.  Still, it’s very easy.

ericnliz

Very glad to here you got the problem solved. Enjoy, and happy trails!

mash2

Do the controls work now.  I have an older one and it has not had an issue.  When it is turned off, it should quit working.  If not, they should replace the unit.  If they said they would fix under warranty, if it won't turn off, it should be replaced.

Michigan_Mike

mash2 said:

Do the controls work now.  I have an older one and it has not had an issue.  When it is turned off, it should quit working.  If not, they should replace the unit.  If they said they would fix under warranty, if it won't turn off, it should be replaced.

There are many instances where the factory does replace items in the trailer for various reasons but some items such as the Norcold, the stereo, etc. are deferred to the manufacturer because they produce the product and also provide follow-up warranty service on their products as well.  I'm guessing too that if a product was incorrectly installed or if there are extenuating circumstances for them to replace such an item they no doubt would do it after an evaluation of the situation.  

I sent a note on to the factory for additional information and will post up info as it becomes available.    

mash2

Understand but if won't turn off, something is definitely amiss.  should not have to have separate battery to overcome issues.

Michigan_Mike

mash2 said:

Understand but if won't turn off, something is definitely amiss.  should not have to have separate battery to overcome issues.

From the factory this afternoon:

Norcold wants to deal directly with anyone with significant repair or replacement issues.

Norcold wants every customer with any issue on their products to have it handled via their service centers.

It is only when the customer does not want to or cannot conveniently do so that we are incumbent to get involved.

We do often step in to expedite things or provide quick and easy solutions.  There are ways for other service centers to handle Norcold claims, but it is not preferred.

 

By and large, Norcold wants to handle the issues.

jschemel

Norcold was helpful and referred us to a rv repair shop and covered the costs because the refrigerator was still on warranty. 
But our 2way refrigerator was only hooked up as a one way at the factory and we didn't know that. It was not hooked up to 110 at all. The technician at the factory told us they didn't wire the 2way refrigerators to 110 in the outdoor kitchens. 

Sharon_is_SAM

Since the 12 volt outlets run via the converter, is that why they do not wire it to 110?  It will run either way if only wired to 12 volts?

ScottG

Clearly the fridge was designed to be connected to 120V, as well as 12V. As with propane, I wonder if there is some safety reason they don't hook it up in the CS models. Can't imagine what that would be though, assuming everything was properly wired for outdoor service. 

hobbithouse

I would like to know why the "factory" states the CS models come equipped with a two way ( 12VDC/120VAC ) but never advertise it as such, meaning that the 120VAC was never wired in. Perhaps a best kept secret until now?

jschemel

Hi SAM;  Yes the converter does power the outlets and most of the other appliances in the T@B.  The problem that we see is that the refrigerator draws a lot of power and that makes the converter work harder and the fan runs a lot to cool down the converter.  It would have made much more sense to hook up the 110 so that the converter does not work so hard.  Noise from the fan alone is annoying at night and we know these types of converters have a finite life span.

Hi ScottG  We did ask Pleasant Valley if there was some fundamental reason why the refrigerator was not hooked up to 110VAC.  They said no, and the technician said he didn't see the value of doing this for such a small refrigerator.  The major problem is that the refrigerator will suck the battery down in just a day or two.  We were upset about the fact that they did not tell us that this was the case.  For the last two years we thought the refrigerator was being powered by 110VAC when connected at home and RV parks.  For safety reasons alone, we believe that Pleasant Valley should make it very clear how things are wired.  A schematic and wiring diagram is industry standard for most everything!!!  Thanks for your questions and input.  J and L

Michigan_Mike

jschemel said:

The problem that we see is that the refrigerator draws a lot of power and that makes the converter work harder and the fan runs a lot to cool down the converter.  It would have made much more sense to hook up the 110 so that the converter does not work so hard.  Noise from the fan alone is annoying at night and we know these types of converters have a finite life span.

The refrigerator DOES draw considerable power and if you look through the forum this has always been the case.  

Current Draw:

• 3.75 Amp @ 12 Volt DC
• 1.78 Amp @ 120 Volt AC

And inasmuch as this is unfortunate this is the only unit available that currently fits the bill for the T@B line and for the CS units produced at the factory and we were told this just last week on our tour of the T@B line by owner Joe Mullet.  

We were also informed that future Norcold units will be reconfigured by Norcold (control modules & venting will be moved to the opposite side of the refrigerator, etc.) so that all trailer units produced in the future will be able to accommodate the same refrigeration unit (3-way units will be installed) and the current "heating problem" will also go away as a result of the latest Norcold modifications.  This will certainly not help your current dilemma, but will eliminate the prior heating issues (e.g., hot counter top, etc.) and the CS voltage issue.  

And true, the converter fan does run to cool the unit and does so as the battery is charged and this is the case with all trailer units produced and packaged with an electric converter.  

jschemel said:

The major problem is that the refrigerator will suck the battery down in just a day or two.  We were upset about the fact that they did not tell us that this was the case.  For the last two years we thought the refrigerator was being powered by 110VAC when connected at home and RV parks.  For safety reasons alone, we believe that Pleasant Valley should make it very clear how things are wired.  A schematic and wiring diagram is industry standard for most everything!!!  

Your situation is unfortunate but isn't unique as all the CS units are evidently running off 12 volts DC, as does the water pump with units with showers, TV/DVD stereo, and all LED powered lights, 12 volt accessories, etc.  The other Norcold 3-way units do have a switch that identifies 12V DC - 110V AC & propane.  If you look at the entry door of your electric converter the circuits are clearly marked and identified, as is the 110V AC circuit breakers.  

And as for safety, the circuit for my Norcold 3-way unit running off of 12V DC is protected by a 15 amp fuse (in the electric converter and 3 fuses internally on top of the Norcold unit) and should the circuit develop a short a fuse will blow before shutting down the converter.  

I did look for a manual on-line but since the NR740BB replaced Norcold Model DE-0740 there might not even be a manual printed, thus no circuit information.  Norcold DOES include circuit schematics in their manuals, but most individuals cannot or do not take the time to look at them because most people are not electric/circuit savvy and cannot interpret them.  My 2015 T@B Max-S trailer came loaded with manuals (had the Norcold manual too) and information and the same was true with my 2014 Silver Shadow.  

I sent a note on to the factory and asked them about the 12V DC and 110V AC wiring.  Will be interesting to hear their take on the hook-ups, but as noted above this problem will probably go away and become a non-issue in 2017 with the newer and redesigned Norcold units that are slated to be installed.  I personally prefer my 50 quart ARB unit over the Norcold anyway for it's low power consumption and will only use the Norcold in locations where I stay for more than one night.  



 

USWildflowers

I wasn't particularly concerned about the 2-way being connected to 12V only (can't remember how I found that out, but it was probably during the early tracking down of the converter connections since they aren't labeled in my 2015 Max-S), but I read this in the NR740BB owner's manual (available online) which does concern me: "When using either a converter or a battery charger, make sure that they are connected in parallel between the battery and the refrigerator. Do not use a converter or battery charger to supply the DC power directly to the refrigerator because these two devices do not supply filtered DC power". Does anyone know if the refrigerator is connected to the converter in parallel with the battery? I'm guessing not. Any chance not having filtered power could result in the failed thermostat/controller on jschemel's refrigerator? Frankly, I'm not sure how much credence to put in the manual,  since it says to use a 15amp fuse in one part of the manual, and elsewhere it says to use a 10amp fuse.

Michigan_Mike

Can you post up a link to the manual?   

Sharon_is_SAM

Makes sense that is why the converter had been running so much.  It will be intetesting to see how long you can run the frig on battery after the rewire.

USWildflowers

Link to Thetford / Norcold manuals: http://www.thetford.com/customer-support/product-manuals/

Ratkity

The battery acts like a buffer/surger protector for low voltage situations that can damage delicate electronics. Surge protectors on your 30A plug protect against high surges. Low power drops can fry TVs (blew my sister's out), especially in campgrounds that are full and everyone's AC is working at max during the summertime.

ScottG

Thanks for that explanation, @Ratkity. I've heard that the battery provides some sort of protection even when the converter was on shore power, but wasn't clear on the specifics.

My rudimentary understanding of battery systems is that current will flow from higher voltage to lower voltage. As such, if your converter is putting out 13.6 volts, it will it will power your devices and charge the battery. If the voltage from the converter drops abnormally, the battery will keep voltage to devices at normal levels, presumably preventing the damage Ratkity described.

I interpret this as a parallel connection between the battery and the converter. However, it's not clear if this voltage regulation constitutes the "filtering" described in @USWildflowers Norcold manual.  

ddetar

I have a 2015 CS model. I did not know that the 2 way Norcold is only connected to the battery.  Does the battery recharge when the RV is plugged into a 30 amp shore line?  We were on a 7 day trip with 4 days in one spot and an 8 hour drive to the next.  The Norcold worked well at both campsites.  On the way home, after driving 9 hours I disconnected the connection to the vechicle and assumed the battery would take care of the refrigerator.  We did not check the frig when we left out the next morning for our drive home, but found everything warm when we opened the frig for unloading.  I tried starting it on battery power.  The frig made a noise like it was kicking in.  After 3-4 hours, I went to check and the light in the frig was on but it was still warm inside.  I have been reading the Norcold posts but still not sure what is wrong or what to do. 

jschemel

According to the factory, the Norcold refrigerators in the CS models are only connected to the 12V line coming from the power converter box in the trailer.  This converter supplies battery power and also provides a charge current to the battery when the trailer is connected to 110VAC (e.g., 30 amp shore line).  Unfortunately, the refrigerator sucks a lot of 12V power and this makes the converter work a bunch harder.  We could tell something was wrong because the fan was coming on all the time.  When we had left the trailer disconnected overnight, the battery voltage was seriously depleted.  If you don't have one, you should buy a multimeter that can measure AC and DC voltages and check continuity (using ohm function).  An adequate one only costs about $20.--  The best thing to do is to make sure the battery is fully charged before you connect the refrigerator (just turning the dial off does not completely turn off the unit).  To make sure the refrigerator is not drawing any current, you should pull the fuse on that line (the light will go out in the refer).  Connect up the 110VAC line to the trailer to charge the battery, and check the battery voltage periodically (with the 110VAC line temporarily disconnected).  With the 110VAC line connected, the voltmeter will just show a charging or float voltage, usually 14V or so. (If your battery is really low, it is best to disconnect the battery from the trailer and put it on an independent car battery charger.)  --  After you are sure that the battery is fully charged, turn on the refrigerator (with the 110VAC line connected) and see if it will get cold.   If not, check with Norcold to see if it is still on warranty--  We decided that the current drain on the battery by the refrigerator when dry camping was too great and it jeopardized our other 12V lights etc.  We now keep the 12V fuse pulled and run the refrigerator only on 110VAC when we are in camps.  We cut a hole in the panel behind the refrigerator and so we can connect 110VAC directly to the refrigerator when needed.  Check our entry above for details about that.  You can also run the refrigerator when you are driving because the car will keep the battery charged.  However, if you don't have a solenoid switch on the charging line, it could suck down your car battery when the engine is off and the trailer is still connected.

ericnliz

Thanks for all the info, I'm sure it will give others here a better understanding of the operation of the 2 way fridge. Hope you got all the bugs worked out now. Sounds like it got pretty frustrating there for a while! Good luck & Happy Trails to you!

jschemel

Thank you for your help and support! Much appreciated. 

ddetar

Jaynie and Larry,  Thanks so much for the detailed explanation.  I plugged the TAB in last night and the Norcold worked fine so I am guessing my battery was not sufficiently charged.  I am curious how you connect the 110 where you drilled the hole behind the Norcold.  Do you have to run a wire, twist two together and tape, etc.?

jschemel

ddetar - sorry we were traveling in yosemite high camps - no cell or wifi - so 
to answer your question I think if you refer to our comments on July 18 you will see what we did.