Manuals for winterizing T@B's - questions

Verna

@Photomom, this sounds like a job for you. Seriously. No, I 'm not trying to be smart Alec, nor make you mad. If this makes you mad, I'll apologize in advance. 

All I can say is that I followed my pipes, paid attention to the color of pipes and talked my way through the winterizing so I could understand it. I knew everything worked for the summer, so I made labels showing the summer setting and the winter setting and stuck the labels next to the valve on the floor, and I took photos for when I dewinterize.

Drain the fresh water tank. Keep it open until done. Drain any pipes that go through the floor. Now move all of your valves to the opposite of summer. Open your sink and shower faucets. Use a low powered tire compressor to blow out all the water in the pipes. Close the fresh water tank, and any drains to keep out any bugs.  Close your sink and shower faucet.

Then I poured the Pink RV antifreeze in the sink, shower drain and the black tank through the toilet. I do not put any pink RV antifreeze in my fresh water tank. 

If I were there with you, this is how I would have you do it. Sure we'd have some laughs and make jokes, but if you just make labels and move the valves to the opposite of summer and drain where you can, that's the hard part. No actually the hard part is being afraid you won't remember it next spring.

Photomom

I doubt you could make me mad unless you used your magic wand on ME.

I just feel this is the one area where I could seriously mess up my trailer if I do it wrong.

Verna

@Photomom, I did send you a private message. Naw, it won't make you mad, either!

Nomad

I did the same as Verna as there were no manuals at all back then. I didn't do the labels though.

kybob

I've done the blow out method twice. The directions say to disconnect both sides of the water pump, then reconnect them before blowing out the system. Both times that I have disconnected the hoses from the water pump, nothing came out. So, I am wondering if this step is necessary to blow out the lines? Thanks!

Nomad

Hmmmm - I didn't.

Verna

I didn't either. 

ChanW

Photomom, it's recommended by the manufacturer (Alde), that the water heater part of the Alde should not be in contact with any winterizing antifreeze.

I usually just blow out the system thoroughly, and leave it dry for the winter. Of course, I also put antifreeze in the drains/traps and in the black and gray water gate valves.

If I used antifreeze to winterize, I'd first drain all the lines thoroughly, being sure the Alde itself was thoroughly drained, tilting the Tab this way and that just to be sure, then redirect the bypass valves to isolate the (now dry) Alde. Add the antifreeze to all the lines, by filling the fresh water tank with antifreeze and pumping it through all the fixtures: shower hot/cold, toilet, sink hot/cold.

As I said though, I prefer simply draining and blowing out the lines and spigots, not messing with the antifreeze. Less to deal with in the spring.

HTH.

ChanW

@Kybob, I never disconnected the pump either. I just run it til it runs dry, and  draining the lines drains the water away from the pump.

Carolyn

I usually drain everything possible and then connect the compressor and blow out each line individually for five minutes or so. There is still a minimal amount of water at rhe bottom of the fresh water tank. I put antifreeze in the sink drain and add enough that it goes into the grey tank. Marvin told me at Tearstock this year that I should run a little through the pump also but I have not done that for the past two years and have survived a couple of cold Indiana winters. I have never put antifreeze in the water lines because I felt that I had thoroughly blown them out. This method has served me well on a 2014 CS.

Connor2008

We have a 2013 S.  Will the instructions posted on the previous discussion work for our model?  We do not have the Alde to bypass. Thanks.  

ScottG

Plumbing is plumbing, for the most part, so draining the system (and filling it with antifreeze, if you choose) should be the same basic process regardless of camper model. Not having the Alde will just make it that much simpler.

ChanW

Connor2008, the pre-Alde units used a separate hot water heater, didn't they? In which case, you probably have a drain-cock on or near the hot water tank...? Dunno.
The Yahoo group has a lot of earlier Tab owners. You could look there for that model system.

Michigan_Mike

Photomom said:

I just feel this is the one area where I could seriously mess up my trailer if I do it wrong.

Your fear and concern was exactly how I felt after I picked up my 2015 T@B trailer and brought it home to Michigan during the fall as I knew that winter was fast approaching and there wouldn't be room for error with the onset of cold weather looming on the horizon.   As Verna noted above and told me (yes, we talked a few times on the phone) when I was trying to figure things out, take the time to open up the bench area where the Alde unit sits, study the piping and you will figure it out easily.  It did click and made sense when I took her advice as the T@B water system is a rather simple set-up and it's easily maintained/manageable if you look at the piping, see where it runs and compare it to both the camping season/winterizing photos shown in the PDF.  

The Alde has a built-in 2.5 gallon hot water tank, water flows into it cold, the water is heated, exits the Alde hot water tank and is used in the shower and in the sink in the kitchen area.  That is it!..... Your fresh water tank drain is located beneath the trailer and to the left of the trailer step.  That needs to be opened to drain the water from the FW tank.  Additionally there are valves in the Alde bench area that are opened that drain the hot water tank and the hot/cold water lines inside your trailer.  

The gray & black water tanks must be emptied too.... I installed pink RV antifreeze in these tanks, eventually dumped it (as noted below) and even if there were some residual water remaining in either, what difference does it make should it freeze up, expands some, etc.?  This applies to the freshwater tank too as a small amount of water will not kill the tank as the water lines will be aired out via pressure (I used a bicycle hand pump) and the valves will remain open until outside temperatures allow for the system to be used from spring, through summer and into fall the following year.    

By lowering the front of the trailer down to its lowest point and forcing air into the water lines, this will force the water out and also allows gravity to help in this entire process.  I performed the above a couple of times, ensured that the pump was free of any water (followed their instructions) and poured RV (pink) antifreeze into the gray & black water tanks, into the sink and tub p-traps too and I was good to go.  

I was also instructed to "open up" the gray and black water valves, remove both caps, allow the contents to flow out and then install a screen over these areas and allow air to flow freely into both tanks so that they could dry out.  The screens also eliminate any rodent entry (or nest making) into the tanks and my trailer was stored in a barn all winter (with mice present) and everything worked out fine and without any rodent entry (or subsequent issues) into either the tanks or my T@B unit.  

I also charged up my battery good in the fall, turned the battery on/off switch to off and left it that way until spring time and all was well and the battery remained charged.  This is something I do religiously with all my toys/boat/lawn gear here in the harsh winter area of Michigan and I have lived here all my life and never had any issues.  I was once told to "go with what works best for you personally and stick with it" and this is what I have done and it's been effective for me.  

Piece a cake!  

Photomom

Our plan was to remove the battery and put it on a battery tender in our garage. The trailer will spend 5 months in a friend's unheated barn. The temps could get as low as -10F. The battery would be okay after that? We do have a group 27 and it weighs a lot!

TerryV6

Thanks for the upload Verna...  Our dealer (Madison, WI) is going to have a demo near the end of Sept to show us newbies the procedure also...

TerryV6

New people always have questions....
The dealer recommended the anti-freeze method, so what do I know...  

We did all the steps they gave us, which pretty much followed the "Manual" method, except about draining the lines after.   We added about 2-3 gallons and then ran the pump until nothing came out of the faucet (as per the "Manual".  Now, I assume most of my addition is now in the gray and black water tanks.  The last part talks about draining the two tanks.  I would assume that what I get out of the gray tank would be untainted.  Do people reuse it or should it be taken to recycling?  I figure that I'd not want to save the black tank stuff...

Photomom

I am still trying to get my head around this winterizing thing. The PV manual for 2016 models shows pictures of the valves in summer mode and winter mode, and notes that the winter mode positions are only needed if winterizing with antifreeze. Does this mean I can leave the valves in the summer position all the time if I use a blow out plug?

Also, where is the Alde drain valve? It is not shown on the picture.

If I drain the Alde and don't put antifreeze in the lines do I need to do anything with the Alde bypass valves?

Need to winterize this weekend and feeling really stressed out. And no, looking at the rats nest of tubing under the sofa does not help. It makes no sense at all.

ScottG

Photomom, the bypass valve allows you to fill the cold and hot lines with antifreeze without pumping antifreeze through the Alde's HW tank. If you are not using antifreeze, you will need to open the valves to drain and blow the lines, but it really doesn't matter what position you leave them in after that.

The Alde drain is the yellow flap-thingy in the blue pipe leading into the bottom of the Alde. To open the valve, pull the flap straight up (perpendicular to the pipe). As discussed at great length in another recent thread, I suggest after opening the valve you confirm that the Alde is actually draining.

I don't use antifreeze, but my personal preference is to open the bypass, and leave all three drain valves open for the winter. I figure that gives any residual water that may trickle down from somewhere an opportunity to find it's way out. Again, I don't think this is critical if you have drained and blown the lines well.

The winterizing manuals, while helpful, create as many questions as they answer. If you study your plumbing and take the time to figure out how it all works, the process is really quite intuitive. The ultimate goal--regardless of how you approach it--is just to get the water out of everything!

Photomom

ScottG said:

If you are not using antifreeze, you will need to open the valves to drain and blow the lines, but it really doesn't matter what position you leave them in after that.

You mean open the drain valves, right? I'm thinking all of the other 57 valves in there can stay in the summer position, right?

ScottG

Yes, the drain valves: one for the cold water line, one for the hot water line, and one for the Alde.

The other valves (there are three in my 2015 S) are all related to the bypass system: the cold water supply to the Alde, the hot water return from the Alde, and the bypass itself. You may happily ignore these if you are not using antifreeze!

Tweedrvr

Why is it that something so really basically "simple" (simple might not be the best choice of word) cause so much stress and second guessing?  I figured since Mr Weatherperson said it might get down to 23-34 tonight, today should be the day to do the "Big W!" Winterize. Using the handy handout I compared my plumbing under the sink.  With marker I noted the primary parts. Double checked the drains that I had previously emptied. Poured 1+1/2 gal of the pink stuff into the fresh water tank. Turned on the pump and opened the bathroom and galley faucets and stood back in case it blew up!  I was surprised to see quite a bit of water come out of the bathroom faucet before tinges of pink appeared.  (Wonder what drain I missed?). Eventually, although still pumping out bubbly liquid it showed more pink than water. Also flushed toilet until some pink appeared.  Turned off the pump and closed the faucets.  Poured some pink down each drain and toilet including the shower floor.  Opened the gates of the black and gray and waited until they stopped draining.  Closed everything up and here I sit hoping I covered all the bases.  Only got out of the driveway twice this season but spent quite a few nights in it driveway camping.  Replaced the overhead fan fuse and changed an Alde fuse when I thought I was having a no heat issue.  The only other thing I wondered about was a fan noise (compressor?) that runs ALL the time (I'm plugged into shore power).  Is that normal?  Don't remember hearing that last year.  Well...sorry to carry on so, but it helps me to write things out, especially if there are folks who might read this and understand what I'm talking about.  Thanks for listening.. All comments/corrections welcome. 
Martha in VT with her '16 GMC Sierra double cab Big Blue and '15 T@B CS-S Max H@ppy C@mper!

Photomom

Why? Because it looks like this.

ScottG

Cool photo! Except for the mixing valve and (what I presume are) the connections to your outside shower, it looks just like mine. You got this!

Photomom

Also because there is no clearly documented procedure; because everyone who posts here does it a different way; and because if you screw up you can do hundreds if not thousands of dollars of damage to your trailer.

Photomom

I hate to keep beating the horse but it's not dead yet. There is no drain valve attached to my Alde. There are only two drain valves, one for red and one for blue. Near the top of the Alde there is a red hot water outlet and attached to that is a clear hose that runs down through the floor. When we opened the hot water drain valve on the red line we could see water running down this clear hose thru the trailer floor and air bubbles coming back up. 


Will this drain the Alde tank sufficiently? Neither of us could see any other way to get water out of it.

I don't understand what the red fitting is, or why water doesn't come out of it all the time.

Photomom

BTW the yellow flap thingy on the blue line entering the Alde is not a drain. In the normal position it is already open, otherwise cold water would not be able to flow into the Alde. As near as I can tell you would only flip it up to close it to bypass the Alde if you were putting antifreeze in the lines.

ericnliz

Photomom, That yellow flap thingy on the blue line IS IN FACT the drain for the Alde tank, believe me, I know. You need to flip it up [straight up] to drain the tank. If there is no water coming out of it, it is because there is a in-line pressure valve that restricts the water from going back the other way to fill the tank. I had a hard time emptying mine because of that valve, and the fact there was no pressure left in the lines because I blew all the lines out BEFORE trying to empty the tank. You can get it to empty by re-filling the lines, and tank,with water, and then emptying that one first, or do like I did, and put air pressure in to the city water fill-up to create pressure to open the valve. I hope this answers your question. If you follow the line with the flap thingy TOWARDS the tank, you will see the blue line that comes out of the bottom of the tank, [almost straight down from where your red arrow is] not only to fill, but to empty the tank also.

Photomom

ericnliz said:

Photomom, That yellow flap thingy on the blue line IS IN FACT the drain for the Alde tank, believe me, I know. You need to flip it up [straight up] to drain the tank. If there is no water coming out of it, it is because there is a in-line pressure valve that restricts the water from going back the other way to fill the tank. I had a hard time emptying mine because of that valve, and the fact there was no pressure left in the lines because I blew all the lines out BEFORE trying to empty the tank. You can get it to empty by re-filling the lines, and tank,with water, and then emptying that one first, or do like I did, and put air pressure in to the city water fill-up to create pressure to open the valve. I hope this answers your question. If you follow the line with the flap thingy TOWARDS the tank, you will see the blue line that comes out of the bottom of the tank, [almost straight down from where your red arrow is] not only to fill, but to empty the tank also.

The UK version of the Alde manual has a better picture of the yellow flap thingy and it does have a hidden drain line coming out the bottom and thru the floor. We were able to see water coming out when we put air in the lines.

We used a bike pump which didn't generate a huge amount of pressure and we found the best approach was to close all the drains and faucets, pump some air in, open one drain or faucet till air comes out, close that drain/faucet, and repeat that process for the next. Just nou enough pressure to clear everything at once. Acted cycling thru everything a half dozen times and raising and lowering the tongue, no more water came out anywhere and we declared victory. We are leaving the drains and faucets open in case there is a little water left somewhere.

What a pain! I won't be surprised if DH just wants to dry camp next year!

Michigan_Mike

Photomom said:

Why? Because it looks like this.

Your Alde power cord is the culprit above that adds a lot of tension/business to the photo you posted.

If It were me I would unplug the Alde power cord, uncoil that mess wrapped around the center, recoil/re-position/relocate the power cord nicely and secure it out of the way with a couple of tie-wraps (to eliminate the mess above) and re-position it near the lower floor area.  

Once this is done the water piping system is a much easier/simple system to figure out since the blue (cold water) and the red (hot water) piping basically head off (via the white hosing shown above) to your shower/sink/stool and to the Alde areas (blue & red pipes) and emptying out the bottom of the trailer via the valves.  

Cold water enters the Alde system (via the blue water pipe) at the bottom of the Alde unit and leaves the Alde (after the water is heated) via the red pipe at the top of the Alde unit.  It's a very simple set-up and can be easily sorted/figured out if owners would take a few moments to open up the bench area and follow the pipes out.