Tongue weight concerns

Lesley_and_Ian

We have a 2007 T@B which we tow with a manual Subaru Forester.  Well we will do when we ever get out the driveway!  We are new to the whole towing game. 
We are scheduled to go on a trial run to northern Wisconsin on Wednesday so we get clever and buy a spare tire carrier we can attach to the tongue so we have more space in the T@B.  Seems like such a great idea.
We tried to check the tongue weight this evening with the tire attached to the tongue.  We put the household scales under the little wheel at the front of the vehicle.  It weighed 320lbs and the Subaru has a max weight on the tongue of 200lbs.  Can the new location for the tire make such a huge difference?  We have towed it 2 or 3 times locally with no problem but now it is loaded up with food, water, LP gas and the tire!!
HELP!!  Are we checking the tongue weight accurately?  Will the new placement of the tire make such a huge difference?  What do you, the T@B community, recommend?

Homebodyatheart

Frankly, a V6 tow vehicle or rent a small Uhaul truck. My neighbor did the latter when she messed up her CRV towing an 18' trailer home. She's got a V8 now. Some say they do it and it's ok, I'd rather be safer than be wrong. Your rig, your call.

Sharon_is_SAM

Your tire and water weight will definately impact your tongue weight.  Did you use a board to weigh the tongue?  

ScottG

320lbs seems like a lot, though it depends on several variables.

After relocating the spare on my 2015-S, my tongue weighed in at 209 lbs. That's with  a full propane tank, a group 27 battery, water in the Alde tank, and a full complement of gear stashed under the rear seat. I did not have food in the fridge, or water in fresh water tank (which appears pretty well balanced over the axle).

Where you take the measurement can also make a difference, I weighed mine by setting a short 6x6 post on a scale, and setting the hitch coupler on the block.

Unfortunately, I did not weigh the tongue before relocating the spare, so I can't comment specifically on the impact of shifting that load to the front.

Lesley_and_Ian

Thank you for feedback.  Not sure if we measured the tongue weight correctly.  Put a wooden post on top of scale and put hitch coupler on top of it?  Is that right.  This is not what we did.
Anyway we have decided to remove the spare and go back to the status quo we had as that seemed to work fine.  But I would like to accurately measure the tongue weight if I can.

SweetlyHome

The post on the scale would be the technically correct location, and your method sounds good using a readily available scale .  At the jack wheel the number would the tiniest bit less than at the hitch.  

You don't say which model T@B you have.  Watching here and from my own experience the location of the kitchen has a big influence.  Those with the kitchen in the rear appear to have fewer challenges with hitch weight.  The fridge, stove, all the pots and pans, and food move to aft the axle to help balance the battery and LP in the front.

marknjudy

Just a note: in an earlier thread, it was calculated that moving the spare to the tongue adds about 42 pounds to the tongue weight. The spare weighs 35 pounds and someone with way better math skills calculated that moving that 35 pounds from the back side of the tires to the front made the weight differential more than the 35 pounds. In either event, if you're truly at 320 (or even close) pounds at the tongue, you're still going to be overweight. Can you move more storage items behind the seat to alleviate that?

Cyclonic

I know I am going to sound like the bad guy here, and I am sorry about that, but you don't mention the year and model Forester you have.  Just a quick lookup shows that the current 2017 model has a towing capacity of only 1500 pounds, which would put you overweight from the get go.

Also, to get an accurate tongue weight you should place the scale on a block and weigh the tongue level with how it will be towed at the coupler.  Measuring at the jack would cause a lot of leverage that would throw the result way off.

dsatwork

I have a 2017 320 s with a lund tool box on on the tongue two 100 amp hour agm batteries, 20 lbs propane, 2 1/2 gallon gas can and a 2000i Honda generator and that's about 300lbs tongue weight... oh yeah and our spare tire.

Lesley_and_Ian

At this point we have moved the spare back to the back of the T@B and have removed most of the water in the tank.  There is not much else we can do to move the weight around.  As mentioned by sweetlyhome, the kitchen/galley is at the front of the van and that is where most of the weight is located.  it is an old camper van, no toilet or shower, no grey water tank etc.  it's pretty basic.  
The Subaru has a towing capacity of 2400 lbs when towing a trailer with brake sand a tongue weight max of 200 lbs. Does my camper have brakes?  I feel very foolish even having to ask such a question!!
  We will weigh the tongue using the advice from here in the morning and see if it is back within the recommended limits.  

ChanW

Unless there's been a change I've missed, the general consensus is that tongue weight should be around 10% of the trailer weight.
Not following this rule can affect gas mileage/wear n tear, and handling.
You can 'adjust' the tongue weight by counterbalancing any excess weight that is forward of the trailer axle, by increasing stowed weight behind the axle.
If your tongue weight limit is 200 lbs, then that will dictate a trailer weight limit of @ 2000 lbs, pretty hard to meet when the Tab weighs in at 1650 dry weight (ie, no battery or propane, water, food or luggage)
You should also check the max load limit of your Forester.

Lesley_and_Ian

The 2007 T@B T16-1 is listed as having a unloaded weight of 1585lbs and a hitch weight of 110lb so you can see why I thought we would be fine towing with the Subaru.  it also lists surge brakes as standard.  So it seems we will have to travel really light!!  There is not much we can move to behind the wheel axle.  Any advice on how it will feel or act if it is not towing OK?

Sharon_is_SAM

Re that 2400 lb tow limit, you really don't want to max that out.  I have seen recommendations to limit weight to 3/4 of the TV rating - in your case 1800 lb.  But your issue currently is being over the safe tongue weight rating, which can result in a sag of the rear of your TV, loss of traction, swaying and an out of control trailer = overturned trailer.  BTW - don't count on your insurance company to cover you if you are towing beyond recommended ratings.  

JohnDanielsCPA

All this talk about tongue weight has ME stressed now.  I've never had to even think about tongue weight, as I've always pulled with trucks.  But after seeing so many here pulling with Jeeps, I bought a Wrangler Unlimited over the weekend.  It has a 3500 pull limit (I'm sure I'm fine there), but only a 350 pound hitch weight.  Do I need to be stressing about that limit?  I have a T@B Max S.  Also, for the jeepers, my Jeep only has an 1100 pound cargo capacity.  Does that mean ALL weight is considered in calculating cargo capacity or does Jeep exclude the driver (as many manufacturers do) when determining cargo capacity?

TabberJohn

9-15% is a general rule for tongue weight.
The etrailer site shows these measuring methods: https://www.etrailer.com/faq-how-to-determine-trailer-tongue-weight.aspx
Too little tongue weight causes trailer sway.
Too much tongue weight affects TV handling.

Lesley_and_Ian

Well we did it and earned our wings!!  T@b and Subaru both did wonderfully including getting lost and ending up on dirt roads due to summer bridge works on minor roads.  We had to stop abruptly once and felt the surge brakes come on but no sway, no weaving on the road, towed straight and clean!  Yea!!  Pics to come

ericnliz

@Lesley_and_Ian, Congrats! Sounds like you pretty much hit the gambit of towing experiences.

TerryV6

I started out accidently talking tongue weight in another thread.  Thought I'd move here.  First, I have read alot of what is posted here.  But, everyone has a slightly different setup.  I have a Tab Max S and I added the boondock platform.  It also has the tire mounted in front, and a good size bike rack.  Without the rack, I am at 240.  Adding the rack, I move up to 280.  Then there is the 2 bikes, or our tandem if we bring that. Our stock battery was 41 pounds and we upgraded to one that is about 60..  That extra 20 pounds weren't part of the two numbers above..
Now we could take the tire and mount off and save 50 pounds.  I'd rather not though.  I am driving a Ram 1500 with a class 4 hitch and the chart says I have a max trailer weight of 8150.  It also says something about the reccomended tongue weight for a conventional hitch is 10 percent of the gross trailer weight. 


My question on this is does the TV size affect the tongue weight number at all.  I don't mean 1100 pounds, which is the max weight for a class 4 hitch.  I'd be at about 350.  Is that too much do you think?  I understand the basic concepts of tongue weight and don't want the long timers to groan at yet another question about it.  

Just that I'd be looking at 350....
Am am I thinking this right, and could the tire stay by putting some heavy items inside toward the back?  The the truck size help in this?

(Is there a way to delete my questions in the discussion about adding a bike rack by another member, thus cleaning up the area. )

Sharon_is_SAM

@TerryV6, The TaB weight is a key factor in determining desirable tongue weight as long as you are within your TV towing limits.
 
The Maximum Trailer Weight Rating of 8150# is your trucks tow capacity which far exceeds the TaB weight, so you are more than good there.  And your hitch tongue weight capacity is more than enough at 1100#.  

So, in your case, the limiting factor is the TaB fully loaded weight.  You want at least 10% up to 15% of the TaB weight to prevent sway.  So, if your loaded TaB weight is 2200# then you need 220-330 # tongue weight to safely tow the loaded TaB.  And you are correct, once you determine your loaded TaB weight and desirable range of tongue weight, you can adjust how you load the TaB to increase or reduce the tongue weight.

Which post do you want deleted?

dsfdogs

@TerryV6 seems like you would want to take into account percent of trailer weight too. And even though the truck could handle more, would you be comfortable? I don't know if you have a cover for your truck, but I would probably put the bikes in the truck bed, strapped down. 

TerryV6

Well, if it came to a choice, the wheel would go in the truck bed and the bikes would stay...

Cbusguy

Looking at the Gross vehicle weight and towing capacity of the subaru,  I would leave the bikes at home and take the spare tire.  

Sharon_is_SAM

Unless I am mistaken, I don't think Lesley and Ian are mounting bikes on their Subaru, but Terry6 with the large truck is.