Water issue, read forum posts, still have issue

KTOT

Verna, I actually love my T@b Outback. I know RVs are all prone to problems, especially initially--at least in my experience. It is just so very frustrating to have a brand new anything that almost right off the bat has a major system or component fail. I had a good talk with a tech at the dealer I purchased from late today, but after I tried what he suggested (which didn't work), he was gone for the night. I do plan to call NuCamp again in the morning (their hours are really horrible for anyone one in the western half of the U.S.) as I have another issue (smaller, but existing since I picked up the camper) to discuss with them, I hope.

dsatwork

@KTOT hang in there. I had pretty much the same experience with the water but ultimately got it resolved. Then I was able to take 15 day trip to Yellowstone and Mount Rushmore and through Colorado and got to enjoy a reasonably trouble-free tab. I wonder if your water running out maybe a sensor issue? search for my freshwater sensor post. that might explain why you're running out when you are. Although it doesn't explain why you can't get it started again... just an idea.

KTOT

dsatwork, I have noticed the sensor readings seem to go a little crazy. I don't remember exact numbers, but when I was draining with the low point drains today, the meter showed something like 30% but then when I shut those valves, it read 36% (with no water going into the system). And when I had problems the first time (a couple days ago), I was seeing variations between something like 25% and 19% but I don't remember the exact situations--except that the reading on tank level was changing even though no water was going in and out. Once I (hopefully) have the water working I may look further into the reading changes, but the problem does seem to be with the pump, especially since today no water would come up through the clear hose in a bucket with the pump on at all. I.e., the pump would not prime. I'm using a small piece of clear hose so can watch the water move (or not move) through it towards the pump, and today it didn't move at all.

Michigan_Mike

dsatwork said:

@KTOT hang in there. I had pretty much the same experience with the water but ultimately got it resolved. Then I was able to take 15 day trip to Yellowstone and Mount Rushmore and through Colorado and got to enjoy a reasonably trouble-free tab. I wonder if your water running out maybe a sensor issue? search for my freshwater sensor post. that might explain why you're running out when you are. Although it doesn't explain why you can't get it started again... just an idea.

nuCamp does on occasion have a bad sensor (that produces an error code/erroneous readings) and others utilizing the system have experienced problems relating to wiring/electronic interference, etc. per the manufacturer, but the sensors are mounted on the outside surface of the holding tanks and are not internally and subject to the problems of the internally mounted sensors that are out there in the RV industry.  The manufacturer recommends that if the sensors are located in a way that exposes them to road debris/travel, that they be sprayed with a 3M protective rubberized spray.  I had to do this on my 2015 T@B as I didn't have the under trailer covering that some of the later models had.  

I believe that the water pump's sputtering/air sucking issues are related more to the location of the water intake plumbing in the FW tank and construction/design of the freshwater holding tank inhibits or limits the ability to draw every ounce of water out from the tank.  I'm guessing it is more of a design/placement issue too and being aware of it makes it manageable if you are using it for showering, etc.  

I will also add that the SeeLevel ll monitoring system is a better alternative today than when the earlier T@B units were built (I love this monitoring set-up!) and people were guessing on gray water quantity (as to how much gray water they had in their tank), oft times ending up standing in backed up gray water during a shower as some folks experience today who are without the SL ll tank monitoring system. 

Verna

KTOT, Marvin has been trying to get in touch with you. The factory hours are 5:30 am to 3:30 pm, EDT. If you can touch base with him, he's a great guy to help you.  

Deac

Michigan_Mike  or anyone.  I hope @KTOT 's problems are over by now, what a pain.

When draining the FW tank is it okay to drain completely (as needed for winterizing)?

When refilling, should I try to bleed the air out before running the water pump?

I just sanitized my tank today for the first time on my new 2017 Sofitel.  Upon refilling it the water pump took over 5 minutes to start pumping water.  Is there a possibility of damaging the water pump by running it that long when dry?
If so, what should I do to prime the pump?

Thanks much, this community is full of rock stars!
-deac

Michigan_Mike

Deac said:

When draining the FW tank is it okay to drain completely (as needed for winterizing)?

Yes, you should get as much water out as possible.  Tilt the nose of the trailer down as far as possible and let it drain.  A little residual water in the tank won't hurt it even if it freezes.   

When refilling, should I try to bleed the air out before running the water pump?

I just sanitized my tank today for the first time on my new 2017 Sofitel.  Upon refilling it the water pump took over 5 minutes to start pumping water.  Is there a possibility of damaging the water pump by running it that long when dry?
If so, what should I do to prime the pump?

I normally turn the pump on and let it run for around 20-30 seconds, open up the sink faucets and you should hear air escaping.   Shut them off and try the shower faucets to eliminate any air in that area too.  You do want to fill the freshwater tank full or at least get it up around 50% full or thereabouts.  

If you still do not have water try flushing the toilet a few times as this works well for me.   When my pump finally primes I can hear the difference in the sound of the pump and as it builds to a full system prime it seems to pound a bit and then stops once the system is primed up properly.  

You may also want to check and ensure that the fittings at the pump are tight so that the system isn't drawing air in at the pump connections.  Check the pump filter housing (clear plastic cover) on the pump and make sure there is no debris in the screen as this will also impact the pumps ability to draw water up from the freshwater tank.  

Another thing you can do is to hook a hose to the city water connection, run water inside the trailer and this should also help eliminate any air in your lines, fill the Alde hot water tank and by opening the faucets it will push air out of the lines.  

5 minutes of run time on the pump shouldn't hurt it, but when running the pump try some of the suggestions above as it should help your cause.  

I have the SeeLevel ll tank monitoring system on mine and when it gets down to around 27-29% the pump will not prime properly, starts to sputter and begins to draw air.  the more you use your trailer, the better feel you'll get for addressing these types of things and it definitely will be easier to figure things out.  

Deac

Michigan_Mike , thanks much, you are amazingly helpful.  I'll head out now to try your suggestions.  Your comments and especially your photos of things like the ALDE piping and valve layout are the best; NUCAMP should put them in the manual.  Speaking of which ....

First I want to share this link that I just found to a better Tab Manual than the "Owners Manual" I've been using and which is not very useful.  The following link to the "T@B MANUAL" actually talks about the water filter and how to sanitize and other topics not in the Owners Manual.  From people's comments, most of you already have it, but just in case, check this out.

https://3bxr2l10vxst48va8f7epfcd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/03/2017-T@B-MANUAL.pdf

Firesprink

I’m having the exact same problem with my 2017 outback. I have had nothing but problems with this water pump and priming. I honestly regret not going with the R-pod. Lesson learned.

MuttonChops

Firesprink said:

having the exact same problem with my 2017 outback. I have had nothing but problems with this water pump and priming. I honestly regret not going with the R-pod. Lesson learned.

Pump Pressurized water systems are always a pain.  My boats also had priming issues so it's unlikely an R-Pod would be any different than a T@B, IMHO.

Both systems have the same basic components and potential weak points.

Floyd67

Does seem to be a basic design problem that tanks can even pump down below the intake level that would draw in air and loose priming, especially if 100% full is going to be needed to re- prime. Shouldn't it have had a simple float shutoff with a dumb early indicator light.

I have a 2015 CS-S that runs continuously at maybe 75% full (25% of water tank used) pumping air/water mix, but primes and works fine if completely refilled. That suggests to me their are no intake leaks, and probably not manufacturing debris clogging it still now, unless that can block priming only, and not full delivery when tank is over 75% full. A new exact stock pump and filter were just swapped in as they burned out pumping away overnight (why no protection/over-runtimer there?) I'll try poking out the fill cap air vent line with weed-wip line tomorrow, only thing I haven't been able to do yet.

I'd say either:
1. Pump is just mounted too high under sink in  a ‘15 clamshell (hasn't anyone tried just lowering it to cabinet base/floor yet?
2. Fresh water tank outlet is not on tank bottom nor tilted or angled to outlet/intake?
3. Debris from manufacturing was left in tanks and still causing enough restriction to block priming if tank level is not high enough (e.g. almost or full) .

If 3 contributes, why doesn’t nuCamp provide directions for owners to now flush this plastic manufacturing residue out? What is the best way to remove manufacturing debris from out nearly new water tanks?

Basic function there, one of a few things campers need to do well. Seems a good idea to address it (now) then?

Thanks

JG

BooRadley

We had the same problem on our 2016 Outback. What worked was to remove the filter from the pump - it's the clear plastic thing on the left side - and attach the incoming water line directly to the pump. We did also replace the pump, and it works much better now. I posted all of this a while back.

Sharon_is_SAM

@Floyd67, I was just at uCamp and took some pictures of the fresh water tank.  This is a view of the long edge that faces the driver’s side.  A “T” is added to the outlet on the right for the fresh tank drain and the inlet to the pump.  The outlet does exit the underside, but along the center edge facing the driver side.  And, of course, the tank is mounted flat so, depending on degree of level, there will be some water that is inaccessible.  To me, it does not sound like you have obstruction from debris as you have forward flow, but, I suppose if the air vent is occluded, you would suck air from the water fill which is not a closed system.  I am not sure if the 2015s have the same outlet arrangement.  Are your tanks uncovered?

Floyd67

Hi,
Thanks for the picture. Surprised to see that the tank outlet/pump inlet is out the bottom of thank (tilted vertical there). All that would be needed would be a little 'V' shape to the bottom of the tank, and all the 11 gallons would be available. As it is (flat), you can use maybe 2/3 or 9 gal before sucking air and loosing prime, even when fully leveled, if I understand. (Doesn't make that much sense as the remaing two gallons of water or '1/3 full' should cover the bottom of that easily- I always get the floor interior fully leveled.

Given a better view of what is behind the curtain there, I'd say mine is partially clogged with something, but that's not enough to impeded the pump when primed. However it's enough clogged to prevent priming as the pump's much weaker at initially clearing and air-water mix. (My pond pumps do not like the 'self-priming' step much at all, just lowering an inch or two makes a big difference at the priming stage. I could lower the pump intake about 2" to bottom of floor in a clamshell, as its wall mounted at the back of the sink cabinet.)

(That or the vent cap channel is clogged, I'll find out Friday.)

 By uncovered, do you mean fully visible as above? (No they are not visible, nothing done to get at the fresh water tank or pump supply line.)
JG

Sharon_is_SAM

Keep us posted @Floyd67.

Floyd67

I ordered one of these from Amazon, thinking I would connect a garden hose (male) to the existing 1/2" (female) rubber flex pipe end of the incoming fresh water tank line (in place of the water pump), and 'blast' water through there and out the fill port on to the ground. Seems like that would hopefully float a lot plastic cutting or other debris up and out. If the flow was good enough (had seen just a few white platstic flecks on filter before clearing them).

This is a hard part to find. Hope it fits and works.



https://www.amazon.com/LASCO-15-1635-Adapter-4-Inch-Female/dp/B00ITPIINO/ref=pd_bxgy_60_img_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00ITPIINO&pd_rd_r=RJZVEYYN69E4E90V9W1G&pd_rd_w=r4eXp&pd_rd_wg=UQfBK&psc=1&refRID=RJZVEYYN69E4E90V9W1G

ericnliz

@Floyd67, Keep us posted as to the outcome please. I know quite a few folks are following this. Thanks!

jkjenn

You know, of all time I have had my T@b, not one airlock. I have the smaller, 5  gallon tank that is located inside, so I am guessing it must have to do with location. Has this ever been reported as an issue on the 400? I do not recall an instance. 

Floyd67

Indeed, as @ChanW suggested, it appears that my issue was with a kink in the fresh water tank air vent line, which is not accessible. (Did not need to try the 'reverse water pressure' tank fitting above.)

First I confirmed the problem still existing by filling the fresh water tank to 'running out on ground', and it primed the pump fine. However faucets again began sputtering after only minimal use of the tank water. Using something I remember reading  in another thread, I ran a length of heavy weed wip line into the port/hole above the water fill as shown below. I encountered some resistance about half way in, and was able to push through it before bottoming out and solid stop.

After this 'lining' of the tank's air/exhaust port, much much more water (11 gallons plus the Alde hot side, I think) twas required to fill than in my experience and I heard even more gurgling and sound as the tank reached the upper 1/3 or so on the way to actually full. And I've since have no issues with priming the tank, nor of loss of priming while using tank water. 

The result of a clogged or kinked tank vent line (clear plastic tubing inside wall) then is that I likely never had the water tank even half full in the past. Water would stop going in the fill port. (My 2015 CSS has no SeaLevel meter.) run out on the ground quite early. Filling it about half full (but  not less)  in this way then allowed me to successfully prime the water pump, but then would quickly 'un-prime' after after using only a couple gallons or so, probably at about 1/3 or less of the tank.

That's seems to be it. Quite a relief as I figured I had additional damage the first year in the form of a crack and air leak somewhere in trying to winterize as a new owner (described in another thread). I'll update if otherwise on my next outing, next week.


JG

ScottG

On my 2015, the vent line is made of soft clear tubing that was installed in a manner that tended to kink and pinch the line in several places. I didn't have problems getting water from the pump, but filling the FW usually resulted in a lot of burping and blowback.

Once I made a few adjustments to mitigate the constricted areas, things worked much better. I'm actually glad I don't have a newer model with the enclosed undercarriage. While it may provide a margin of additional protection for the tanks and plumbing, it sure makes getting at those items for inspection and maintenance much more difficult.

jgram2

@ScottG What adjustments did you make?

ScottG

Under the trailer, the vent line was zip-tied pretty tightly to the fill line compressing the tubing. I removed and replaced the ties, making them a little looser.

There was also a pretty hard bend where the tubing went up through the floor. That was a little more challenging, as there was very little slack in the tubing that would allow me to loosen it. I ended making a stent of sorts with more zip ties so that the tubing wouldn't kink at that particular spot.

At some point I may just replace that super-soft tubing with something a little stiffer and perhaps larger in diameter.

Floyd67

If possible, please take a picture. Thanks!

ScottG

Here ya' go @Floyd67...

IIRC the soft flexible vent hose was originally routed over the gas hoses so that it kinked where it passed through the floor of the trailer (just above the top of the photo). It was also zip tied a bit snugly to the fill hose in at least a couple places.

To eliminate the kink I had to reroute the hose under the gas lines.  The external "stent" keeps the hose from kinking where it passes under the forward gas line. Putting a dip in the hose creates another potential place to trap water and debris, but on balance it seems better than it was.

Like I said, not perfect, but an easy improvement until I have the inclination to install something better.

davidojohnson

I, too, am having this same problem. I've got a 2017 T@b Outback. Water worked fine my 1st and 2nd outings but on my 3rd trip with the fresh water tank at 100%, I get zero water flow from the sink faucet and no toilet flush. No air, no water. Where can I find detailed instructions (preferably with pictures) to "prime the pump"? Newbie David Johnson

ScottG

@davidojohnson, does your pump run when you open a faucet (even if nothing is coming out)?

davidojohnson

Yep, I can hear the pump running and nothing comes out of the faucet and nothing in the toilet.

ScottG

Welcome back, @davidjohnson.

And, under those conditions, may I correctly assume that the pump continues to run (i.e., does not shut off automatically) when you close the faucet?

Are you getting anything out of the shower?

ChanW

@davidojohnson, Sorry to ask the obvious...

Is one of your drain valves open (under the seat by the Alde), by chance? Your symptoms sound familiar.

The pump is actually supposed to be 'self priming', though some folks seem to have better luck priming it, even though....