Fishtailing.

Bill_Cochrane

After driving about 1500 miles I have noticed that my Outback is sensitive to fishtailing.  (see https://www.facebook.com/grownmenstuff/videos/1880365532213332/) I have experienced one very bad episode while passing an 18 wheeler.  I was going down a very steep grade from BC's Coquihalla Summit at about 67 mph.  As soon as I cleared the front bumper of the truck I started fish tailing,  a lot! .  Quite startling actually.  Another time happened for no real reason that I'm aware of.  I typically travel about 65 mph, I don't do a lot of passing, the tire pressure is good, the tread is new, and trailer is hardly loaded with just about 60 pounds on the floor just beneath the table.  So why does this unit seem sensitive to fishtailing.  Do you think the outback's higher clearance, the Yakima rack and the spare tire has raised the center of gravity too high?  Or am I just going too fast at 65-67 mph.  Anyone else experience this?

Smullis7

I experience it too.  I even put as much weight as possible to the front of the camper to see if that would make a difference.  I'm left to believe that the weight of the spare on the back might add to the issues...but not sure as I've not taken the spare off to test it.  I usually have my fishtailing issues over 70mph especially if the road is a little jenky, like crowned or lots of patched areas.  

Tabaz

I've never experienced it with my Outback.  I usually travel with the fresh water tank full and VERY little weight in the trailer itself (just bedding and pillows).  My trailer is level in relation to my TV.  I check the tire pressure on all tires before each trip.

Smullis7

I usually have the fresh water full, but I do have some food and clothes stored under the rear bench.  I'll have to check to see how level the T@B is when towed.  It can't be off by much, because I have slept in it, etc. while still connected many times and don't feel like I'm leaning.  :-)

jgram2

We had none traveling from Portland Or to the Mississippi and back. T@B weight 2240 loaded except empty tanks, TV weight 4400. Travel speed 60-65 with an occasional creep to 70 (forgot we were towing :( oops) 4980 miles.

ChanW

Fish tailing can be caused by your tongue weight being too light, relative to the total weight of the trailer. Loading the back of the trailer with too much heavy stuff behind the axle can create that situation. And higher speeds exacerbate sway.
If you weigh your tongue with a bathroom scale (or at a farm feed store etc) it should be at least 10% of the total weight of the trailer, or @ 15% max. A farm feed store can weigh the trailer, and separately the tongue, for you to do your figuring.

Bill_Cochrane

Twojgrams was that with an Outback model?

Tabaz, yup I've also had full fresh water and fridge, but nothing stored under the seats.  It also looks level to the TV but not really certain if it is actually.

Smullis7, yup the lay of the road makes a difference, any dips in pavement gets a wag in the tail.  I'm thinking I should remove the spare from the rack, although I don't want to do that because of the convenience and cool factor .

jgram2

@Bill_Cochrane yep-2015 S Max Outback - empty weight 1860, tongue weight a little <180

Bill_Cochrane

Do you have an Equalizer hitch Twojgrams?  I don't.  Did not think it necessary with the Honda Ridgeline tow capacity of 5,000 pounds.

jgram2

The 2WD 4Runner has a 7300 towing capacity and we tow without a sway bar or equalizer hitch. We were a little light on tongue weight, but the Brahma wheel lock and Bal Leveler were at the trailer's axle.

Bill_Cochrane

That's exactly what I have at the axle.  I store the Brahma wheel lock and Bal Leveler inside a plastic Barrel that fits perfectly between the seats.  So I figured that as the 60 pounds.  Might be a little more.

Verna

The empty Dry weight is without propane tank, propane, battery and your "stuff". 

Tabfortwo

We have the same problem the only way we could get to almost stop was to remove the spare. I spoke with nu camp and they had no idea why it would be happening. They said that no one else has reported this problem. I was told they would check in to it and get back with me. Two weeks have passed and no response. I'm thinking it's where the tire is positioned the higher the better. I measured mine with one at the dealer and mine was about 11" lower.

GrandmasKid

We've put about 10,000 miles on our Outback in ten months and the only time we experienced sway was when we put bikes on the rack and were in pretty heavy wind. We gradually slowed down, pulled over at the next interstate exit, and put the bikes inside the camper. We'll not do that again. Weight toward the back of the trailer is a bad idea. Good luck getting it figured out and please let us know how it goes.

JustJohn

I had some minor fish tailing at 70 mph when I towed my Outback home from the dealer for the first time. I added a 95 lb. battery and probably another 35 lbs. of gear in boxes on the frount rack and have had no more issues with stability. I usually tow with empty tanks unless I know water will not be available at the campsite.

T@Balong

We've traveled about 15,000 miles with our T@B which though it is not an Outback model, I do have the Yakima rack spare tire mount.   I tow with a Jeep Cherokee with a factory tow package.   Cruise is set at 62mph on a freeway, lower on two lane roads.   Never had a problem with fishtailing.

BirdieJane

We have a 2017 Outback and it was all over the road at times when we left the dealer. We were told that they towed well but not this one. I added an anti sway bar and she is rock steady now. In Montana I99 big trucks passing at 85 mph and no more sway. nuCamp needs to hear these stories be cuz there is something wrong with the trailers weight distribution off the lot that has this kind of sway. By the way when we picked ours up the fresh water was 1/2.

Michigan_Mike

Smullis7 said:

I usually have the fresh water full, but I do have some food and clothes stored under the rear bench.  I'll have to check to see how level the T@B is when towed.  It can't be off by much, because I have slept in it, etc. while still connected many times and don't feel like I'm leaning.  :-)

You are looking at around 92# of extra weight if the freshwater tank is full and anything extra behind the axle and to the rear will also contribute to and create trailer sway.   Since the trailer is a higher profile, passing semi's does create a draft and crosswinds encountered after passing will create some instability when towing.   One of the keys as noted above by others is to add weight to the tongue since owners tend to store heavy items in the benches behind the axle to the rear and inside galleys of the clam shell units.   Not to mention that traveling faster than the rating for the tire (most are rated at 65 mph) creates heat build up on the tire sidewall and can result in a blow-out and a rollover accident.  

https://youtu.be/GfeyBxuIZOU?t=25

https://youtu.be/nd-hUX8memY?t=143

ericnliz

To check if you are 'level' when towing, load your TV, and your trailer as you normally would. Take a level, and place it on the trailer tongue frame, check level. It is better to be a little low at the hitch, than too high. Being too high will cause sway because the back of the trailer then becomes lower than the front, and takes weight off the tongue that would normally be there in a level application. Adding too much weight behind the (trailer) axle in the trailer will have the same effect. 

ChanW

Yikes! That second one is a pretty on-point scary video Mike. It should be 'required reading' for all new trailer owners! We had a bit of a 'sway scare'  after first picking up our Tab - enough to take 'load distribution' seriously from then on.

I initially checked with our bathroom scale, and now I''ll 'lift' the tongue slightly, just enough to feel its weight (hopefully without blowing out my lower back ) ... I've become pretty good at guesstimating the tongue weight.

I assume that our load in the trailer has remained about the same, but there's that word "assume" again... I'll have to check the trailer weight again sometime.

BirdieJane

We have found this sway bar to really prevent sway in high winds and large vehicles, both on-coming and passing. Found it at etrailer.com

ChanW

Didn't I read somewhere that Tab recommended no sway bar? (BirdieJane, you forgot to resize that image before you posted it. - 6 megs! It took all my bandwidth!  )

Bill_Cochrane

Great feedback folks, I'll be weighing my tongue and re thinking my weight distribution.  And now another question, can the tongue weight be heavier than 10% with no consequence?

BirdieJane

So before buying and after we discussed sway bar vs none with Chris at LG and our dealer they suggested towing without. 10 minuets down the road the trailer was all over the place, filled our propane tank and still a problem. The hitch weight max for the Subaru Outback is 200 lbs. So we installed the sway bar 10000 miles later it has been great.

Ratkity

Do NOT back up with that friction sway bar. It's easy to pretzel if you jack knife while backing. Just take it off. That said, I have an extra one if anyone does pretzel theirs and don't want to pay retail

ChanW

Bill, the recommendation is 10%-15%, I try to keep it at 10%, probably cuz that's what I learned way back when.
I think if you go over 15%, you're going to be lifting the front end of the TV  a bit, reducing traction and affecting steering response, at the very least.

Bill_Cochrane

Thanks Chan!

Dockguy

I recently purchased a 2017 T@B S Max (Now the T@B 320 S).  We just took our first trip to Naples, FL from Bluffton, SC.  It is about an 8 hour drive.  I usually tow at no more than 65 mph.  I tow with a 2016 Honda Pilot FWD.  I found that the T@B towed very well without a sway bar, but when big trucks drove by I would get more sway, so just to be safe I am adding a sway bar to my T@B for highway driving.  This is my 4th small camper, I have had a Coleman Niagara Pop-Up, a Aliner Classsic, and an R-Pod 171 prior to recently purchasing this T@B S Max.  When traveling on the highways I feel it is better to be safe than sorry as you don't know how others are driving, etc.  A friction sway bar is not very expensive and just adds piece of mind to me and my family.  The main thing to remember is don't overload your TV or your trailer, keep things level, and keep your speed at around 65 mph or less and you will be fine.  Enjoy your T@B... we love ours !

Dockguy
2016 Honda Pilot -V6, FWD
2017 T@B S Max 

Ratkity

When I switched to a camper that was 8 ft wide and 10.7' tall (only 20 ft long), I found that I could feel the push of an approaching 18 wheeler. It was a surprise the first few times it happened. No sway or issues, but surprising because I've always had tiny trailers. I have a weight distribution hitch/sway setup and love it. It is normal to feel that push when you get a camper taller than you are used to towing. 

BTW, I can feel the same wind push when I'm riding my motorcycle.

KBaggins1

If you do get in to a severe sway situation that is really hard to control it is important to know that you do not steer in to the skid as you would to straighten out a vehicle that is fishtailing.You have to steer with the skid to correct a trailer fish tail. Scary as all get out because it goes against all your instincts and you need a lot of road to control the skid. I had this happen to me once and the only reason I knew what to do was because a friend of mine was with me and he coached me through it. Then we stopped and moved the car that was on the trailer 18" closer to the front. Problem solved. I think the spare tire up high on the Outback is a terrible idea. With our new TV I took the spare off our 2014 Max S T@B and mounted it inside even though we did not have any fishtailing problems. 

ericnliz

Quite frankly, the ONLY fish-tail I wanna see is comin' out of a lake, stream, pond, or river!!!