Fishtailing.

Ratkity

I'm not sure why there seems to be a fishtailing issue with either Outback or the other 320s. I put the spare tire rack on the back of my T@Bitha because the spare seemed to scrape a little going up the bumps to gas stations. I pulled the T@B with a 2006 Rav4 (V6, tow pkg). It tracked well and I was very pleased. I pulled it with the friction sway bar and without and didn't notice a difference.

I didn't add any extra weight to the front before I purchased another vehicle able to tow much more weight. Even then, I just added a 2nd propane tank and moved the battery in front of the bin. I'm a minimalist packer and decorator, but don't think that was ever a problem with other folks. With the Rav4, there wasn't only me as the driver, but had two large golden retrievers as back seat drivers Still excellent tracking. 

My sister's BF pulled their Outback with his Jeep and the friction sway bar was necessary in a few situations, but she had no troubles pulling it with her Ford Explorer Sport.

I don't think this is a factory issue at all, but the dynamics of the camper and TV.

ericnliz

@Ratkity, I'd have to agree. I tow with 2 different vehicles, and don't have any trouble towing with either one. That being said, I'm pretty conscious about the way I distribute the weight in both the T@B & the TV. After thinking about this for a bit, I'm wondering if shorter wheel base vehicles are more prone to the "sway" factor than a longer wheel base vehicle.?? That, and vehicles that are REALLY close to their towing capacities as well.!

dsatwork

I posted this in a another thread, but it's something I think all Tab owners need to consider and I believe it's eve more important for any Tab with a back rack or an Outback that sits up higher. I added a couple points to my original post to address comments made in this thread.

Weight and where you position it, is important for Tab owners and especially those of us with Tab 320 S models. I'm not sure about the clam shells and the Tab's without a shower seem to have adequate storage in the front.  However, the Tab's with a shower, it seems that most of the available storage is behind the axle. Then compound that problem with this being a light trailer that is attractive to midsize SUV's owners that have limited tongue weight. When you combine these it's really important to know how much your trailer weighs and where it's located. We have all seen the video demonstration of what happens if there is too much weight in the back of your trailer. The first time I towed the Tab, I was shocked how rear-end heavy it felt compared to towing my little guy 5 wide, where most of the storage is on the platform up front. So, with my 2016 Sorento V6 AWD's 5000 lbs tow capacity and a 500 lbs tongue weight, I decided to swap out the standard battery tub for a larger box. With the larger box I was able to have two 100AH AGM batteries the standard propane tank and a place to mount the spare on the side of the box. I'll also be carrying a Honda generator on the tongue for a total tongue weight of 315 lbs. We just got back from a 3,500 mile trip from San Diego to Yellowstone to Mt Rushmore then back through Colorado to San Diego. I never had any issues with sway but I shouldn't considering the weight ratio.

@ChanW I don't think the 10% rule has as much to do with  with the tow vehicle as it does with the trailer. With my 2016 Sorento V6 AWD's 5000 lbs tow capacity and a 500 lbs tongue weight, it's designed to handle the additional tow weight. However, your point is well taken because even though it can handle the weight and towed just fine, it did sit a little lower in the back on that trip. So, I added a set of Airlift 1000 coil spring levelers, so that I can present the car at a better position which will give me even more stability and better control. 


This is with the Airlift 1000 coil springs and a lower 1" rise hitch ball height. Although I don't have the Honda generator loaded in this pic, it didn't affect the height at all. It's subtle but look at the space between the tires and the rim in the two pictures. 


This is with Coil SumoSprings supports and a 2" rise hitch ball height.

Ratkity

@ericnliz, I would tend to agree based on my limited engineering edumacation from my engineer Dad (who still can't back up a trailer to save his life - he watches me and thinks it's some dark magic). 

My sis' BF says there's a big difference in wheel base length and how something tows.

I want to say I haven't towed something over 50% the weight of my TV or near its towing capacity, but then I remembered the popup and my tiny Mitsubishi 5 speed manual trans truck. I think the popup stopped the truck more than the other way around. No fishtailing, 2 people in cab and 5 big dogs in the truck bed (under a bed cap). Boy, talk about a naïve camper and tow person!! Dem angels were working full-time. My friend and I went all over TX with me towing that popup - no winterizing, no bearing maintenance, wheels were rotted when I bought it and they had to be replaced (as well as the spare), anode in the 6 gal hot water heater... what was that? Geeesh. Fresh water tank flushing? No other tanks, thank goodness. Battery maintenance.. again.. whut's that? I did have a marine potty, but usually used facilities at the state parks we camped at.

There was also no internet, cell phones came in big bags and we didn't have TV or radio inside if it rained. We played cards. We were outside most of the time too. Been a tiny trailer person since I can remember. Why stay inside when there's so much to see outside!

ericnliz

"Why stay inside when there's so much to see outside!" My sentiments, precisely   !!!!

dsatwork

I agree @ericnliz too on wheelbase.... The only difference between the 2015 & 2016 Sorento v6 awd is about 3" of wheelbase. I didn't finish my thought here...So, I'm editing it now. The differences are, the 2015 Sorento AWD V6 has Tow capacity of 3500 lbs and a tongue weight of 350 lbs, while the 2016 Sorento AWD with ever so slightly longer wheel base has 5000 lbs tow capacity and 500 lbs tongue weight. No one on the Kia forum has any plausible explanation and it's frustrating to many of the Kia owners who would like to tow more.

Bill_Cochrane

Well with all this great discussion I have decided to try something new with my setup.  I've removed the tire from the Outback rack where it will now be stored in my Honda Ridgeline truck box and truck cap.  I loved the look of it up there but I always thought it was in a bad spot for CofG issues and access while on the road.  The Brahma wheel lock and Bal leveler which was over the T@B's axle will now be stored in front of the T@B axle between the kitchen counter and start of the seats in a plastic bin.  With nothing else of any significant weight in the trailer I hope to eliminate all sway towing with a 5 ton capacity truck with a 500 pound tongue capacity traveling at 65 mph.  Anxious to try it out but no plans for a highway trip for another few weeks.

Tabfortwo

We removed our tire from the rack and it all but stopped the swaying. 

1222tmiller

I always thought the outback tire was a bad idea from an aerodynamics standpoint.

Tabfortwo

I have to agree. Love the look but it's not practical unless your 6'4" you can't get the tire down or back up without a ladder.

Ratkity

One of the things that I was thinking as I watched the video is something my Dad always told me.... take your foot off the accelerator as soon as you feel something wrong. Do NOT brake. Just slow down. If towing a camper, brake gently as the weight of the camper pulls down your speed and pull over. Always keep an eye out for an alternative escape route if one is possible. After having that drilled into me as a new driver at 15 (permitted), it's second nature to look for escape routes and not something I consciously do. People panic as soon as a dire situation starts and want to brake and brake hard. That's why anti-lock brakes were created. In that video, the trailer started to fishtail after passing a large truck with wind turbulence. Always be aware of crosswind warnings and large trucks until you get used to them. Just slow it down. 

Reminds me of a couple unrelated situations I found myself in - It took all I had to not do a hard brake when an accident happened in front of me, but I moved off the road to the left (little to no shoulder) and onto the median grass and gently braked past the accident. Yes, I was towing a popup. There was this other time, I lost the entire hitch assembly off the receiver when towing a Uhaul double axle trailer at less than 20 mph. After a loud *BANG* and seeing the trailer catching up with me momentarily, I had to suppress the urge to slam on the brakes. Fortunately, nothing was damaged and no one was hurt. The 40# hitch acted as an anchor, btw. There were no trailer brakes or surge brakes on those trailers then and the chains failed to do their job (no safety hooks).

Luckyj

Ok, I have just gone trough the entire tread.

from experience.  Tow vehicule wheel base does not have much to do with how a trailer will tow or behave.  It will only affect the stability of the TV.  No matter how big the TV and how long, trailer can still sway like crazy.  Btw, I have tow trailers for more than 30 year with short and long wheel base vehicule.  Think a Renauld five, short and light weight, ford E-150 (same trailer about the lenght of the renaud five) and never had fish tailling but when load was to much to the back of the trailer.  Last 20 year were towed with a 2 door jeep wrangler.  Same thing, when for any reason I would not be able to center the load toward the front of the trailer, sway would happen with a gust of wind, or just from speed.

By practicality, a TV wants the hitch weight to be as light as possible.  But, the trailer needs to have enought weight to bring the CG toward the front (numbers say 10-15%) i always guesstimate that but should weigh it from time to time.  And anything you move from front to back, let say a spare tire, you would not simply remove 40 lbs from the front, you would then add 40 lbs to the back.  It is a difference of 80 lbs in the venter of gravity.

An other thing that will affect the CG while driving that will increase with the speed or the shape of the tow vehicule is....wind drag.  The T@B are short and high.  Take a sheet of ply wood, hold it in the wind in front of your waist, you will be push, but should remain stable.  Bring that board above your head in the same light wind, you will fight like crazy to stay in the same spot and not fall on your butt.  So had anything the can drag in the wind and pish the cg back ward, all the weight that you have added to the front could be neutralizez by the wind drag that even just the outback rack with tire could create.

i have never used a sway bar on any trailer I have towed to controle sway and fishtailing, I have never used load bearing bars (forgot the name sorry) but I could in certain situation, but I like the flexibility and I prefer to slow down, but I do not drag super heavy stuff or extar long heavy trailers.

So again, it is not a matter of TV or trailer, but simply a way of how load is center in trailer.
btw, I do beleive that trailer brake will reduce the effect in case of fishtailing if apllied by them self while releasing the trottle on the TV.  The braking action will move the CG toward the front of the trailer, bringing stability back in the systems.  Then, stop as soon as you can and redistribute wieght in trailer.  If no trailer brakes, just eas up on trottle.



hope this help. And with a trailer, speed should be lowerd.

Tabfortwo

I've  also been towing trailers and driving big rigs for the past 30+ years. And I'm sorry but the trailer should be engineered to tow at freeway speeds. That being said I drive about 10mph under the speed limit and with the trailer new from the dealer with nothing added tire on back and completly level this thing is all over the place. I removed the tire and the little plastic thing on the bottom of the rack sway almost completely stops.  I'm sorry but this seems to be an engineering nightmare. And I can't get nu camp to return a call so far no impressed.

Luckyj

Tabfortwo said:

I've  also been towing trailers and driving big rigs for the past 30+ years. And I'm sorry but the trailer should be engineered to tow at freeway speeds. That being said I drive about 10mph under the speed limit and with the trailer new from the dealer with nothing added tire on back and completly level this thing is all over the place. I removed the tire and the little plastic thing on the bottom of the rack sway almost completely stops.  I'm sorry but this seems to be an engineering nightmare. And I can't get nu camp to return a call so far no impressed.

I'm not saying that they are not built for highway speed and it is because of that you should slow down, I'm saying that you should slow down because you tow a trailer.  Reaction to fast manouver with load is not the same. You are a truck driver, then you more than anybody esle should know about that. And you aslo know that the way you load is organized will after drivability and possibility of quick manouvrebility. You must have pulled an empty box trailer over a bridge with a strong side wind.  Were you keeping highway speed or slowing down so you would not flip on your side.  And why do so many state and province ask vehicules with trailers to go slower than simple cars and trucks?  On an other forum, guys were all cranky about the fact that the bigger the TV, the better for stability.  Example given, a guy ad lost every thing in an accident while pulling is toy holler cause he had caught a draught from a semi.  The trailer was like 40 foot triple axle with a truck or heavy buggy in the rear garage.  They finaly said that he was probably doing 80 mph when it happen. Not sure that his load was well center.

my trailer and even now my T@G are stable enough to be towed at 100 miles per hours.  I have tried it with my trailer before and the t@g is just as stable and even as brakes.  But I was dumb doing it.

as far as you t@b outback, it is a short and high trailer with a high center of gravity.  So it will affect the stability if load is not well balance.  It is not made to be driven empty but loaded for traveling and camping. Yep, they should probably not install the wheel back there for the initial drive home, but it is the cool factor that the dealer wants to show you.

the dealer were I took my t@g was not even aware that you had to start the fan behind the AC to evacuate the heat.  I have learn that here.  they do not even know what is the axle capacity on the trailer.  So dealer are not always the smartest either.

for the rest, I have seing many semi in the ditch, I work as a paramedic, and in some area of my territory, only semi gets in the ditch, so don't tell me that they can go at the same speed as regular car and truck in every situation.  They have to slow down where others do not have to.

Tabfortwo

First of all the trailer sways just as much at 60 versus 70 or 70+ so that's not the issue. It's just ridiculous to think you can't tow above 55mph that's just a design flaw. And with 30 yrs pulling all kinds of trailers this has to be the most temperamental trailer I've ever pulled. I will be putting a sway device on the little jewel before it leaves the driveway. And putting the spare somewhere else.

ChanW

Use the 10-15% rule, and drive at a sensible speed for towing, and you'll be fine. 

Michigan_Mike

Tabfortwo said:

I've  also been towing trailers and driving big rigs for the past 30+ years. And I'm sorry but the trailer should be engineered to tow at freeway speeds. That being said I drive about 10mph under the speed limit and with the trailer new from the dealer with nothing added tire on back and completly level this thing is all over the place. I removed the tire and the little plastic thing on the bottom of the rack sway almost completely stops.  I'm sorry but this seems to be an engineering nightmare. And I can't get nu camp to return a call so far no impressed.

I've got a CDL too and have towed large loads, heavy equipment, large/small trailers and in all types of weather and road conditions over the course of 40+ years and respectfully disagree with your "design flaw" statement and claim.  If your trailer is swaying it is most likely because (and as noted by others) your tongue weight is too light and you need to move more weight over center of the axle and to the front of the trailer.  Obviously a spare on the back of the trailer is going to add an additional 60-70 pounds of weight behind the axle and some trailer sway is going to occur unless you properly redistribute the weight or remove the spare, etc.  And this is why there are posted speed limits (e.g., why big rig speeds are spelled out and why they require rigs to travel 55 mph on California highways, etc), caution lights/warning signs/safety devices are posted ahead of curves and inclines m/steep grades along roadways to alert and prevent drivers from losing control of their vehicles/loads via momentum and excessive speeds.

I've towed my T@B Max S across the US without any issues and always take into consideration weight whether it be my cargo weight, water transported in either the gray, black and freshwater tanks, on the tongue of the trailer, etc.  I tow with a vehicle rated for the load (2016 full size Chevy Silverado with tow package), I tow at the rated speed of the trailer tires (65 mph) and with safety in mind and factoring in weather, road conditions, deer/animals crossing the roads, etc.  

There have been thousands of these trailers built over the years and if there was an inherent defect or design flaw I'm certain it would have surfaced by now and major changes would have been implemented.  The T@B trailers are merely larger teardrop shaped trailer versions that have been around for many years and that mirror the smaller teardrops that were developed and built during WW ll from leftover aircraft aluminum.  So if you feel strongly that you have a defective trailer and it is still under warranty you should first contact your dealer and if they do not satisfy you, contact nüCamp's warranty administrator, Marvin Raber and ask to speak to him as Marvin is an experienced/worthy hand and knows the dynamics of all their trailers.  

JustJohn

I totally agree with Mike. I have now towed my Outback somewhere around 6000 miles, and although I do not recommend it to others, much of it has been at 70 mph+. No sway and no problems and my spare is still on the rear rack. If there was a design flaw, I would have been in the ditch long ago. The whole problem starts with improper weight distribution. Once you get that sorted out, assuming you are using an adequate TV, if you are still having stability problems, you may have a faulty or damaged component ( bent axle or rim etc.). Do I feel a "push" when I pass a tractor trailer or get sandwiched between 2 tractor trailers on a 3 lane interstate? Yes I do, but actually less than other trailers I have owned or towed. I have never considered the Outback dangerous in any way. 

Tabfortwo

Do me a favor and get a measurement from the ground to the bottom of the rack and to the tire also. Mine is almost 11" lower than the one at the dealer 

JustJohn

Tabfortwo said:

Do me a favor and get a measurement from the ground to the bottom of the rack and to the tire also. Mine is almost 11" lower than the one at the dealer 

Are you referring to rack itself being 11ins. lower? Stand by going out to measure for you.

GrandmasKid

I have a 2017 Outback with 11K miles and only experienced sway when I briefly put bikes on the rack. I think the design is fine.

JustJohn

From the ground to the middle of the bottom cross bar is 58 inches. The bottom of the tire sits at 65 inches. I am not hooked up to my TV so these are approximate but should be pretty close. Also no perfectly level but close. My rack is at the bottom of the side channels, as low as it can go. Hope this helps.

Ratkity

There's something no one has mentioned.... Could the axle be defective? Have you checked that? Tires don't come balanced on a camper. Something else to check. 

This has me perplexed because of the success of the Outback model and no one seems to have had such a horrid experience (so sorry you are having this issue - especially since you are doing everything in your power to do the right things). If the axle wasn't on straight, you may be able to see it on tire wear, but you haven't seem to have gone many miles to tell. 

It was just a thought. Don't mind the smoke. The brain cell just over-heated a bit. I took the battery out of the smoke alarm

Verna

If I thought the Outback Rack was dangerous, I would not have a repair order in to add the Outback Rack at üCamp17. My spare is already under the rear end, so there should be no difference moving the spare to the rack...except I won't be scraping the spare on the "Dry washes" that aren't dry with all this rain we've had. The Outback models are so popular that nüCamp now offers a T@G Outback, although the spare tire is not on a roof rack.

If nüCamp thought there was a problem with this popular model, they certainly wouldn't be creating yet another model of it. 

Ratkity

@Bill_Cochrane - I've also towed my T@B with Outback yakima rack + basket + spare tire over 70 mph - wasn't thinking, just following traffic. No fishtailing. Lots of 18-wheelers and other humongous, oversized things going past. Typical I-95 traffic towards DC metro area.

I have since slowed things down since my load is a lot heavier and I tend to carry water as well. Also gotta watch those cement poles at the gas stations!! Tandem axles tend to turn when you do.. must be clear of obstacles before making them turns!! LOL.

jason330i

Bill_Cochrane, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but maybe tow the outback with the nose slightly down?

Luckyj

I deleted my answer, It did not make any sense to me after reading it after a few weeks.  Lol