Alde system/leaking coupler cold water line.

Capt_KLR

2016 CS-S

First, cold water line feeding mixer under sink on bulkhead gets very hot when Alde system turned on. Is this normal?

Second, coupler (attached photo) on the above mentioned line leaks when Alde system has been operating for a period of time.

Third, will tie first and second points together. One evening when at full service site and connected to municipal water with 50lb regulator attached to hose, my wife got out of bed and stepped in pool of warm water. After shutting down all systems, when leak was found (coupler), cleaned up mess. The water that leaked from cold water line was very warm, almost hot.

Pulled plastic cerclips out of coupler and removed, inspected and put back into place. Turned on trailer water pump and found coupler had stopped leaking. Left Alde system off for the evening and turned on water pump as needed. Next day spent time going over system, no leaks.

Kept very close eye on system for next four days, everything seemed to function normally. Again was camped at full service site and was awoken during the night by what seemed to be rain (water dripping). Again the same coupler had let go, so this seems to be linked to the Alde system.

Tried one more experiment, on domestic water pump and Alde system on (only propane) this fitting let go.

When Alde system is off and domestic water pump on there are no leaks and can turn off water pump for hours. When water pump is turned back on, there is no pressure lost. Absolutely no pressure drop, so the system is tight the way it is, as long as the Alde system is shut off.

Not sure if coupler defective or the Alde causing to much pressure or the heat causing coupler to soften to the point it can't hold pressure. But curious, why the cold line and not the hot one. Could it be the system plumbed wrong.

Basically first long trip with trailer.

Ratkity

I'd replace the coupling. It's usually not a hard thing to do. Those are quick fit couplers. I can't tell from the picture if those are radiator clamps or special Pex tubing clamps holding it to the Pex line. It sounds like there's some back pressure for your cold-water-to-Alde Pex line... just enough to break the seal of that coupler and have it fail. 

Best of luck to you!!!

Ratkity

I have another very important thought before you take on the coupler replace... please call the warranty department at NüCamp!!

It might be more complex now that I've re-read your descriptions. There may be some sort of backflow valve failing going into the Alde if the cold water line is getting super hot.

Please call them!

ericnliz

I'd have to agree with @Ratkity on that one. They might want a copy of the photo you posted to better describe which fitting is the issue as well. You very well might have a pressure valve issue like @Ratkity mentioned, so instead of trying to chase the problem, I'd give 'em a shout. Please let us know what you discover so that it may help others folks as well. Good luck, and hoping for a speedy repair for you!

Capt_KLR

Will be home soon, on the road at the moment. I have full intentions of calling them.

You are correct in saying this is a complex problem. I am also wondering if there is or will be any damage to the sub floor.

Yes, warranty claim will most likely be started.

Sharon_is_SAM

I don't think there is any wood in the floors from 2016 forward.  Mike, Verna?

Verna

2016 and newer models of T@B's have no wood in the floor. Azdel composite material sandwiches the insulation making for a total non wood floor. The only wood is the cabinetry and inside the bathroom wall for structural strength in that wall. 

Capt_KLR

Well, have called and sent email to NUCamp, guess we will see how this goes.

ericnliz

@Capt_KLR , They're great folks to deal with. I'm thinkin' you're in for a pleasant customer service surprise!!!

Capt_KLR

Yes, I have dealt with them on another issue that was not their fault. They were great to deal with on that matter, so I would expect the same on this one.

Capt_KLR

OK, talked with (I believe) Marvin, about this problem. Right now we are going with the mixer being defective, check valve for cold water allowing hot water to creep back into cold line. Coupler may have defect also or may have been damaged during installation. Sending new coupler and mixer and will install and go from there.

Hoping this is just a series of unfortunate events.

Also, the dealer I purchased the trailer from is one of the dealers that are removing the Alde safety/ drain valve which is also being sent. Could be possible that this has created a problem, not sure at this time. Will see how the new parts work.

Ratkity

Why would the dealers be removing the safety/drain valve? It's there for a reason. OMGosh. Just mind boggling.

Capt_KLR

Apparently there have been reports that they can leak, this is my understanding. So this dealer felt and others I guess, to remove the valve would alleviate the problem. However, the Alde could be damaged without this valve. Pleasant Valley is aware that some dealers are doing this and are quite concerned about this removal of safety equipment.

A representative from Alde USA is calling me tomorrow concerning the original problem I am experiencing with the Alde system. I will definitely bring this up with him when he calls.

When researching my problem, I came across a post on this forum dealing with this very problem. This doesn't seem to be an isolated procedure and overtime could start manifesting into failures of the Alde systems we have in our trailers.

Just a thought, I wonder how many of these valves actually leak?

Capt_KLR

Discussed consequences of this safety/drain valve being removed from the Alde system with tech from Alde USA.

First, he feels at this time the removal of the valve has "probably" not damaged the Alde in my trailer.

Second, the warranty could become void because this safety equipment has been removed. This would leave the owner having to negotiate with the dealership which might not be a simple task.

Third, this valve is to prevent the boiler (hotwater tank) from being over pressurized from the cold water side. A damaged boiler and propane might no be an ideal situation to have and the tech concurred with this point.

The person I talked to seemed knowledgable and was familiar with the T@B and the model that I own. He was not in anyway saying that the warranty would not be honoured, but that there could be a cause to void the warranty. He was very accommodating and said to call him if the repairs don't work.

It was stated that if the boiler was over pressurized there would be leakage from the unit and the glycol tank would fill and most likely over flow. I know with my trailer this would not be readily apparent because the Alde glycol tank would discharge externally and the leakage at the unit could be missed for a period of time if the bed is set up.

My main concern is the arrogance of some dealers that are removing what is designed and labeled as safety equipment just because they don't want to be bothered by someone returning the trailer to have this valve replaced. Remember this is a safety device period and should reguarded as such. What other safety equipment could be deemed inconvenient to there time and profit, that they would remove or modify?

Rant over, but poinient.

 

jkjenn

Capt_KLR said:

My main concern is the arrogance of some dealers that are removing what is designed and labeled as safety equipment just because they don't want to be bothered by someone returning the trailer to have this valve replaced. Remember this is a safety device period and should reguarded as such. What other safety equipment could be deemed inconvenient to there time and profit, that they would remove or modify?

Rant over, but poinient.

 

This really troubled me this week. There is a guy who does videos for one of the dealers that sells both T@bs and the LG Max and he said that both manufacturers were wrong about their tongue weight. I mentioned this Dylan DeHoff from LG and he said that they not only have to have accurate scales to be legal but they also had their unit weighed, independently to validate. I am sure Nucamp also has high end scales to validate. This particular dealer does not have a scale installed so the sales guy was using who knows what to measure. Nonetheless he is out there on video confusing customers and giving wrong information.

Gillum

Capt_KLR said:

OK, talked with (I believe) Marvin, about this problem. Right now we are going with the mixer being defective, check valve for cold water allowing hot water to creep back into cold line. Coupler may have defect also or may have been damaged during installation. Sending new coupler and mixer and will install and go from there.

Hoping this is just a series of unfortunate events.

Also, the dealer I purchased the trailer from is one of the dealers that are removing the Alde safety/ drain valve which is also being sent. Could be possible that this has created a problem, not sure at this time. Will see how the new parts work.

Hi. What's the status of your repair? I just picked up a new CS-S and have a leak at the same place. Not sure about the cold water supply being warm.

Capt_KLR

Received parts from Pleasant Valley and installed mixer and new coupler on cold line. Replacement went well and operated system with no apparent leaks. Went camping and all systems worked well. No leaks, however, hot water did creep back into the cold water line even with the new mixer valve installed.

I don't really know if this is normal, but feel there is a problem here and would like to hear from other T@B owners who know if this is a normal function with this valve or not. The temperature when the cold water is turned on in the galley sink is probably close to 170° F (what ever the boiler temp is set at) then cools down to water tank temperature.

I traced the water lines under the sink and the cold line that feeds the mixer is on the other side of the one that feeds the sink faucet, farther from pump. So what could be happening, I believe, is the boiler(hot water tank) pressurizes when heated and forces the hot water through this valve and back into the cold system with a higher pressure that is supplied from the water pump or municipal system if connected. When the cold faucet is activated this pressure forces this heated water to the faucet until the normal pressure and position of the faucet feed allows the water to flow normally or as designed and installed. Also when the hot water side of the faucet is activated the water temperature is also scalding until the heated water in the cold feed line is forced through the valve and the cold water catches up.

Now, I did not install the safety/drain valve(which was removed by the dealer where the trailer was purchased), but this valve as named maybe is for relieving this back pressure. What the techs have told me, this valve is to prevent over pressurization of the boiler from the feed side. I think this is correct, but feel it maybe there to relieve the pressure in the tank period.

So to answer your question, replacing the mixer seems to have not had any effect with the hot water in the cold line. Replacing the coupler with a new one worked for the four day trip. However, used the trailer water pump only so there would be an indicator that, if there was a leak the pump activating without any demand would alert me there is a leak in the system.

Question for you, has your safety/drain valve been removed, some dealers are arbitrarily removing them. You should be able to find a picture of it in the manual. I have a 2016 and it is basically on the floor directly under the trap for the galley sink.

Sorry about the length of the response, hope I have answered your question. Will keep updating when my questions get answered. Will not be camping anymore this season but will do some experiments before trailer is winterized.

Capt_KLR

Installed the safety/drain valve and operated the system for 3-4 hours. Still had hot water pushing back into the cold water line feeding the mixer.

When not requiring heat for the cabin, just hot water, system seemed more stable. Set thermostat for cabin heat and the hot water started to creep into the cold line. This is probably due to the demand for extra heat for the glycol to radiate through the radiators. If the system was run longer with just requiring hot water, the hot water creep could very well happen.

I will still be talking with Marvin and Alde USA to try and figure out what is happening here.

The trailer has been winterized and do not anticipate de-winterizing before the spring.

I'm still trying to find out from T@B CS-S owners if this hot water creep is normal. Simple question, is the water hot(not warm) when you initially turn on the cold water at the galley sink. I have seen a post on this forum from a person who was inquiring about why is the water hot when I turn on the cold water.  Can't find the post so didn't see any replies.

Will update as more information is acquired through discussions with Marvin and Alde USA.

Z_G

I haven't noticed but the cold water lines run next to the alde... I can see the water in lines running hot from being next to a warm source as it passes the tank... I tend to run water for a few seconds when getting water from the tap

merakano

I just returned eleven pretty cold nights trip. That means I needed both heat and hot water.  First 4days were ok but I met exactly the same flooding events suddenly.  When both heating and hot water needed situation, that cold line leaked.  I had to empty Alde tank and bypass the water lines during sleeping time. For the morning hot water, I had to lower room temp to stop heating.  :(

Anyway,  I am testing at the moments.  I raised shore water pressure to make enough cold water pressure to block hot water influx to the cold line and turned mixing valve hotter to make smaller opening to the cold line.  I am testing more than 18 hours so far and it looks ok now.  Cold line above the coupler  feels  cold enough and no more starting hot water when I open cold water facet.  I hope this solve the problem.

Finally, I am sorry about my poor English.

jgram2

I think you explained it very well. Hoping you have found the solution!

Capt_KLR

You explained the situation and what seems to be a remedy very well.

I have talked with Alde USA and they explained to me that there should be an inline check valve in this cold line near the temperature mixer. So I am gathering from this conversation that they are aware that this does or could happen.

Talked with Marvin at PV and mentioned what Alde USA had said about a check valve installed in cold line feeding the mixer. He stated that he or PV was unaware of this inline check valve.

We also discussed that there could be mixers with defective check valves, because the replacement one he sent me was doing the same thing.

I am hoping these conversations I have had with these guys has started some sort of communication between the two companies on this subject.

I will be emailing both Alde and PV shortly and see what they might be doing to possibly correct this defect.

merakano

You did tons of work!  Please let us know the results.  Thank you!!