Benefits of Solar in Addition to Generator Question

iamherefornow

Hi.  We'll be picking up our 2018 T@B 400 in about a week and I'm trying to decide if we should add the inverter before pick-up.  I love the thought of using solar but truthfully don't know a lot about it as it relates to campers.  We bought a 2500W inverter generator that I believe will power everything but I'm wondering if there are perks or a need for solar in addition to the generator.  We will be doing some boondocking/dispersed camping but probably not not more than 1-3 nights at a time.  I also read a post somewhere that said there are campsites that require 50 dB or quieter generators; our generator is 53 dB at 50% load.  Can anyone speak to that?  Thanks!  Paige & Ryan

ScottG

Most campgrounds limit the time periods during which you can run a generator.

In addition, campers who frequent quit places that don't don't offer hookups will regard you with polite disdain for running your motor over the sounds of nature (particularly one that exceeds accepted minimum noise requirements). Not that I know anybody like that...  ;-)

I would humbly suggest you consider the generator as a supplement to solar rather than vice-versa.  :-)

iamherefornow

@ScottG:  That makes sense.  I'm an 'au naturel' kind of camper (my old bones just can't take sleeping on the ground like they used to), so I get that.  I would probably be annoyed by a generator if I was tent camping next to one, too.  I better start researching solar options.  I might be able to get the inverter installed later down the road if I'm not able to before pick up. Thanks!  Paige & Ryan (@rsbible)

ScottG

@iamherefornow, I think of solar as a dish best consumed in small bites. It's really hard to get a sense of it second hand, as there are so many variables involved. I started with a modest suitcase three years ago and have made a few improvements, but am only just starting to get a sense of its capabilities (and limitations).

As you may already know, in inverter is only necessary if you must run dedicated 120V devices without a 120V supply. Most of your basic camping needs can be manged with 12V and propane. I also understand the 400 has a pretty honkin' battery--if you are at all conservative (and as reformed tenters and apparent backpackers I'm sure you are accustomed to living lean) you can probably go 1-3 days easily on just your battery. I've done it with just my plain vanilla group 27 wet cell. Dive in and have fun learning your own system!

I didn't mind sleeping on the ground so (on a nice Therm-a-Rest...), but getting up off the ground was definitely getting old...  :-)

iamherefornow

@ScottG:  Thanks for the input.  I really appreciate it.  I wouldn't be so concerned about it if we were easing into this but we'll be picking up the trailer and heading straight out on a road trip.  I don't mind a few hiccups but would like to minimize the potential for disasters.  I've thrown around the idea of a suitcase but I wasn't sure how to charge it if we were on the road all day.  Admittedly, I'm pretty naive when it comes to solar so I'll start doing some research to see what's out there.  I know solar has come a long way so maybe they've made some work-arounds for these kind of issues.  -Paige & Ryan

Verna

I camped from mid December to the end of March with out electricity in Arizona, except for a week in a friend’s driveway with electricity. I did not use an inverter because everything in the T@B could be run on 12V and/or propane. I did use my 200 Watt Zamp suitcase to charge my batteries every day. 

Under normal circumstances, the only thing I would need an inverter for would be a satellite dish receiver, or charging my laptop. I no longer use a hair dryer because I’m so used to doing without. There is a long discussion on this forum on how to dry hair when camping without electricity. 

But, with the price of inverters going down (compared to a few years ago) it wouldn’t hurt to have a built-in inverter “just in case”. 

Good luck. 

ScottG

iamherefornow said:

...

I've thrown around the idea of a suitcase but I wasn't sure how to charge it if we were on the road all day.

...

If you are on the road all day your tow vehicle should take care of charging your battery.

Haloo

@iamherefornow, you are going to love solar on the 400!  The battery capacity is very good.  So far the only reason we have needed shore power is to run the air conditioner when we visited family in Texas.

You will get to pull into any campsite and simply turn on the lights.  No plug in!  The refrigerator isn’t a big battery drain.  If you have any sun during the day and you don’t use power unnecessarily, the solar panels will replenish your battery if it is reasonably sunny.  While camped in Zion National Park our solar completely recharged our battery while we were out hiking during the day.

As former backpackers we are used to figuring out substitute ways of getting by without a lot of power.  For example, we make coffee by the pour-over method.  It only uses a little propane and the coffee tastes better than pot brewed.  Plus there is a kind of Zen to doing things in a way that keeps it simple.

So I whole heartedly agree with @ScottG, think of your generator as a supplement to your solar.  You may be surprised that you start leaving the generator at home.

Ratkity

I'm lucky that my new Ford F-150 has an inverter in it to charge my laptop if I needed that. I think much feedback has been given to the small camper industry that an inverter slightly big enough to run a CPAP breathing machine was in great demand.

I've provided an extra battery to a person who needed it while tent camping in our small group. We have several that use them and if the electric spots loops fill up, people will gladly swap spots with someone who needs electricity for health reasons. We camp mostly in state parks that have water/electric sites. National parks where we are have a tendency to be dry camping with water spigots interspersed among campsites.

Your original post was about solar. I'd say "go for it". It maintains your battery when parked (unless covered) and a little extra charge on a sunny day is a bonus on a 1-3 day excursion. Where I camp, I rarely have a non-shaded spot. Even a solar suitcase (I have a 100W one) wouldn't be useful.

I have a nice Honda 2000i gen, but I never need a generator where I camp unless it's on private property and heavily using the heater (it was really cold out, I swear!!! ). 

I also love that NuCamp listened and added a huge battery to the 400. WTG NuCamp!! They are so customer responsive to our modifications!

So get solar, figure it out slowly. Get a battery meter. Have fun. Do a Snoopy Dance when you see your 400 and don't forget the picts!

robpt

From what I have read, in some parks (different parks, different rules), its generators over 60 dB that are not allowed and the generator must have a spark arrestor. As others stated, there are allowable times to run them. Some campgrounds have designated areas with allowable generator use and areas that are not allowed.  I have not camped in a public campground that didn't at least have power, so I wouldn't know about nasty looks from others, as I don't run a generator if I have power. I wished nasty looks worked on other people's choice in dB rating for outdoor camper speakers playing music, excessive accessory lighting (there is such a thing as light pollution), and excessively loud talking, but it doesn't, so I don't worry about it unless it is affecting peace and quiet at night when any noise beyond crickets and owls, seems unacceptable to me. The sad truth is though that in warm humid conditions, you sometimes need air conditioning if you want to sleep and that will drown out any noise outside.

If I am boondocking and using a generator to charge my battery, or to run air on a particularly hot and humid night, I am on private land, by myself, and my generator doesn't get over 60 dB. A 2.5K generator may not run the air on your 400  (nor will solar.) To run it on that size generator, you'll need a modification to the compressor motor, as someone has done here and posted about. As @ScottG pointed out, your 400 will have a "big honkin" battery, and it will last a good while before needing a charge. I can easily watch a movie and run the vent fan all night long with it. I have also ran a portable 12v fan on top of watching a movie and having a the vent fan running with no ill effect.

The point is, know what weather you are going to have to plan for. Solar and battery will handle pretty much what you need - if you have enough sun. If you are heading into boondocking in hot humid weather, plan for measures to make sleeping comfortable at night. I know that the sleeping space in the 400 can accumulate heat. I learned to turn off the Alde system at night so that it isn't trying to heat up water, or the air, and inadvertently heating up my head. It sits right under your bed at your head, and I could not figure out why on nights when it was in the low 50s with the windows open, I was waking up in a sweat. Get 12v fans, if you can, to create a breeze when there is none. Or maybe just don't plan on boondocking in the South when it is hot and humid out.

If you do need to use a generator because you've had days of clouds and rain, just follow the rules of the campground and get the quietest one you can, which it sounds like you already have.

iamherefornow

Verna said:

I camped from mid December to the end of March with out electricity in Arizona, except for a week in a friend’s driveway with electricity. I did not use an inverter because everything in the T@B could be run on 12V and/or propane. I did use my 200 Watt Zamp suitcase to charge my batteries every day. 

Under normal circumstances, the only thing I would need an inverter for would be a satellite dish receiver, or charging my laptop. I no longer use a hair dryer because I’m so used to doing without. There is a long discussion on this forum on how to dry hair when camping without electricity. 

But, with the price of inverters going down (compared to a few years ago) it wouldn’t hurt to have a built-in inverter “just in case”. 

Good luck. 

Hi, @Verna.  Thanks for the info!  It looks like you own a 320.  Do you know if the 400 folks are using more or less power than you?  I'm wondering if we could forgo the generator and if so, how much solar we need.  I would love to get by without a generator.  Do you have work-arounds if it's overcast or you're on the road and can't charge (I'm not sure if that's the right term) your solar?

I don't use a hairdryer much, so I should be OK most of the time without it but we will bring a laptop occasionally. 

It's good to hear that the price has come down.  I think the dealership quoted us about $400 so it must have been really high before.

iamherefornow

ScottG said:

iamherefornow said:

...

I've thrown around the idea of a suitcase but I wasn't sure how to charge it if we were on the road all day.

...

If you are on the road all day your tow vehicle should take care of charging your battery.

@S@ScottG:  Oh!  I didn't think about that.  Our camper isn't the newer, 2-battery camper.  I'll need to see if other folks that have the one battery are able to get through the night with the air conditioner running on one battery charge.

Haloo

@Iamherefornow, unfortunately you can’t run the a/c off the battery.

iamherefornow

Haloo said:

@iamherefornow, you are going to love solar on the 400!  The battery capacity is very good.  So far the only reason we have needed shore power is to run the air conditioner when we visited family in Texas.

You will get to pull into any campsite and simply turn on the lights.  No plug in!  The refrigerator isn’t a big battery drain.  If you have any sun during the day and you don’t use power unnecessarily, the solar panels will replenish your battery if it is reasonably sunny.  While camped in Zion National Park our solar completely recharged our battery while we were out hiking during the day.

As former backpackers we are used to figuring out substitute ways of getting by without a lot of power.  For example, we make coffee by the pour-over method.  It only uses a little propane and the coffee tastes better than pot brewed.  Plus there is a kind of Zen to doing things in a way that keeps it simple.

So I whole heartedly agree with @ScottG, think of your generator as a supplement to your solar.  You may be surprised that you start leaving the generator at home.

Hi, @Haloo.  That's great to hear.  Are you able to run the air moderately with only solar and the battery or do you need shore power (or a generator) any time you are using air?  My husband is more of a "glamper" and I'm not sure I can talk him into dispersed camping without it.  Also, do you have the older one-battery setup or the newer two-battery option?  Ours is a 2018 but must have been made before the switch to a two-battery system and I've heard the latter powers a little better.

I have an AeroPress coffee maker on my wishlist but we've been using a french press for camping.  I actually like it really well and it's much better than the instant coffee bags we used for our multi-day hike.  I agree about keeping it simple.  I like the thought of a small camper and using the space as effectively as possible and by using the least amount of electric as possible.

Out of curiosity--are you in the western part of WA or the east?  I would think that there would be times that it would be hard to use solar on the coastal side of Washington.

iamherefornow

Ratkity said:

I'm lucky that my new Ford F-150 has an inverter in it to charge my laptop if I needed that. I think much feedback has been given to the small camper industry that an inverter slightly big enough to run a CPAP breathing machine was in great demand.

I've provided an extra battery to a person who needed it while tent camping in our small group. We have several that use them and if the electric spots loops fill up, people will gladly swap spots with someone who needs electricity for health reasons. We camp mostly in state parks that have water/electric sites. National parks where we are have a tendency to be dry camping with water spigots interspersed among campsites.

Your original post was about solar. I'd say "go for it". It maintains your battery when parked (unless covered) and a little extra charge on a sunny day is a bonus on a 1-3 day excursion. Where I camp, I rarely have a non-shaded spot. Even a solar suitcase (I have a 100W one) wouldn't be useful.

I have a nice Honda 2000i gen, but I never need a generator where I camp unless it's on private property and heavily using the heater (it was really cold out, I swear!!! ). 

I also love that NuCamp listened and added a huge battery to the 400. WTG NuCamp!! They are so customer responsive to our modifications!

So get solar, figure it out slowly. Get a battery meter. Have fun. Do a Snoopy Dance when you see your 400 and don't forget the picts!

@Ratkity:  That is nice that you have an inverter for charging a laptop in your truck and that makes sense about the CPAP machines.  

I love that campers are typically such a great group of people who look out for each other.  It makes me happy to be a part of the group.

You mention using a 2000i generator.  We looked at 2000W generators but wasn't sure if it would be enough to run the air conditioner so we went with 2500.  I wonder if we could get by with less.

Thanks for your response.  Snoopy Dance coming soon!

-Paige & Ryan

iamherefornow

robpt said:

From what I have read, in some parks (different parks, different rules), its generators over 60 dB that are not allowed and the generator must have a spark arrestor. As others stated, there are allowable times to run them. Some campgrounds have designated areas with allowable generator use and areas that are not allowed.  I have not camped in a public campground that didn't at least have power, so I wouldn't know about nasty looks from others, as I don't run a generator if I have power. I wished nasty looks worked on other people's choice in dB rating for outdoor camper speakers playing music, excessive accessory lighting (there is such a thing as light pollution), and excessively loud talking, but it doesn't, so I don't worry about it unless it is affecting peace and quiet at night when any noise beyond crickets and owls, seems unacceptable to me. The sad truth is though that in warm humid conditions, you sometimes need air conditioning if you want to sleep and that will drown out any noise outside.

If I am boondocking and using a generator to charge my battery, or to run air on a particularly hot and humid night, I am on private land, by myself, and my generator doesn't get over 60 dB. A 2.5K generator may not run the air on your 400  (nor will solar.) To run it on that size generator, you'll need a modification to the compressor motor, as someone has done here and posted about. As @ScottG pointed out, your 400 will have a "big honkin" battery, and it will last a good while before needing a charge. I can easily watch a movie and run the vent fan all night long with it. I have also ran a portable 12v fan on top of watching a movie and having a the vent fan running with no ill effect.

The point is, know what weather you are going to have to plan for. Solar and battery will handle pretty much what you need - if you have enough sun. If you are heading into boondocking in hot humid weather, plan for measures to make sleeping comfortable at night. I know that the sleeping space in the 400 can accumulate heat. I learned to turn off the Alde system at night so that it isn't trying to heat up water, or the air, and inadvertently heating up my head. It sits right under your bed at your head, and I could not figure out why on nights when it was in the low 50s with the windows open, I was waking up in a sweat. Get 12v fans, if you can, to create a breeze when there is none. Or maybe just don't plan on boondocking in the South when it is hot and humid out.

If you do need to use a generator because you've had days of clouds and rain, just follow the rules of the campground and get the quietest one you can, which it sounds like you already have.

@robpt:  Thanks for your thoughtful response.  It's great to hear from some seasoned T@B owners about things I've not considered yet.  

I think that most of the places we will go will either have electric or will be remote enough that we won't bother anyone else by using a generator, but I definitely want to be a good neighbor when the occasion arises.  That's good to know that what you've heard is 60 dB, not 50.  I'll check out the discussion about the modification to the compressor motor that you mentioned.  The air conditioner is my main concern.  I've heard that soft starters can help, but I would like to learn a little bit more about how they work to make sure that installing one wouldn't screw anything up.  (LOL at your comment about non-generator dB noise and light pollution.  I hear ya.)

Thanks for the tip on turning off the Alde system at night, depending on the weather.  I think it would have taken me some time to figure that one out.

May I ask what type of solar you're using and do you have the two-battery system or the older one-battery setup?  We have one battery. 

Thanks!  -Paige & Ryan

iamherefornow

Haloo said:

@Iamherefornow, unfortunately you can’t run the a/c off the battery.

@Haloo:  Thanks.  I better download the manual and read more about the systems this week.

Verna

iamherefornow said:

Verna said:

I camped from mid December to the end of March with out electricity in Arizona, except for a week in a friend’s driveway with electricity. I did not use an inverter because everything in the T@B could be run on 12V and/or propane. I did use my 200 Watt Zamp suitcase to charge my batteries every day. 

Under normal circumstances, the only thing I would need an inverter for would be a satellite dish receiver, or charging my laptop. I no longer use a hair dryer because I’m so used to doing without. There is a long discussion on this forum on how to dry hair when camping without electricity. 

But, with the price of inverters going down (compared to a few years ago) it wouldn’t hurt to have a built-in inverter “just in case”. 

Good luck. 

Hi, @Verna.  Thanks for the info!  It looks like you own a 320.  Do you know if the 400 folks are using more or less power than you?  I'm wondering if we could forgo the generator and if so, how much solar we need.  I would love to get by without a generator.  Do you have work-arounds if it's overcast or you're on the road and can't charge (I'm not sure if that's the right term) your solar?

I don't use a hairdryer much, so I should be OK most of the time without it but we will bring a laptop occasionally. 

It's good to hear that the price has come down.  I think the dealership quoted us about $400 so it must have been really high before.

200 watts of solar is what the factory adds with their solar package for the 400’s, so 200 watts of solar with the single 12V battery or the dual 6V batteries (which is what I have in my 320) will work just fine. With careful use of battery voltage, I was able to survive two rainy and two overcast days in succession. I use solar powered Luci lights (search on Amazon for a wonderful tool!) for inside lighting, while being careful of house battery powered lights or water pump, etc. and, no, you cannot use your A/C powered by your battery (batteries). And you use your solar power to charge your battery/batteries, do they can supply the necessary voltage to what you are using (pump, lights, etc.). I also used propane for my fridge (not available on the 400) and for the Alde Heating and water heater. 

rfuss928

Solar is absolutely the best modification we made.  Refrigeration is our major usage. (12V Norcold)   Since installation in 2012 we have had no battery issues and can confidently camp 2 to 3 nights in poor solar conditions with two 6 year old 75ah AGM batteries.   Decent solar conditions keep up with our needs indefinitely.

We were self supported bicycle tourists for many years before SUNT@B and are accustomed to camp ground facilities and minimalists accommodations.  I think you will find the only reason to bring the generator will be for AC.  We often opt for powered sites when available but do not want to add a generator and its accessories to our baggage or campsite.

Charging our batteries while riding a ferry!!

Have fun!

Bob

iamherefornow

@Verna Thanks for the info.  That's awesome that you were able to get through two rainy and two overcast days.  I think I have some decisions to make and lots of reading to do before the 17th.  The dealership that we're using doesn't seem to do any after-market packages and they don't do solar.  I'll check with NüCamp to see if they are able to.  Their factory is very close to my parent's house in Ohio.

iamherefornow

rfuss928 said:

Solar is absolutely the best modification we made.  Refrigeration is our major usage. (12V Norcold)   Since installation in 2012 we have had no battery issues and can confidently camp 2 to 3 nights in poor solar conditions with two 6 year old 75ah AGM batteries.   Decent solar conditions keep up with our needs indefinitely.

We were self supported bicycle tourists for many years before SUNT@B and are accustomed to camp ground facilities and minimalists accommodations.  I think you will find the only reason to bring the generator will be for AC.  We often opt for powered sites when available but do not want to add a generator and its accessories to our baggage or campsite.

Charging our batteries while riding a ferry!!

Have fun!

Bob

@rfuss928:  I love your T@B.  Thanks for sharing your experience.  It's good to hear first-hand info on this stuff.  It sounds like you have a great setup.

First of all, I am very envious of bicycle tourists.  They were all over New Zealand when we were there and I would love to do that.  Right now I am trying to figure out how to fit my road bike on our first road trip in the T@B.  One of our stops is Acadia National Park in Maine and I've heard it's a great place to bike.

I'd like to not have to use a generator but I also don't want to be limited in the hot months to where we can comfortable go without power.  Like I said above, my husband is more of a glamper so if I want to talk him into going to more remote places during the summer, he'll need the AC.     It's possible that we'll end up exclusively in powered campgrounds but I would like to do some dispersed camping away from everything, too.