Towing with 2 wheel drive?

sbinco

Hi everyone…I’m new here and there is a lot of information on this forum!! I don’t actually own a T@B yet, but I am looking at a 2018 320 Boondock. My TV is a 2011 RAV4 FWD V6 with tow prep package. This vehicle has a tow capacity of 3500 lbs. Doing the math tells me I will be within the tow capacity of the RAV but on the upper end of it.  

Two questions for the group:

1)     Is a weight distributing hitch (WDH) a necessity? The T@B dealer I spoke to discouraged their use and indicated “it relieves too much weight and makes them tow very poorly”. But he did recommend sway control. I was wondering how many T@B owners towing at or near the TV tow rating use a WDH and/or sway control?

 

2)     Speaking of towing at/near tow capacity, does anyone here use a 2 wheel drive TV? While I would prefer mine be 4WD, it isn’t, and it’s not likely to change soon. I do plan to use either a WDH and/or sway control (once I figure out if they will be helpful or not), but curious how prevalent FWD only TV’s are in this community.

 

Thanks for the input!!

Dalehelman

IMHO You should be fine. No need for WD hitch or sway control if your trailer is loaded properly. 

dragonsdofly

@sbinco, X2. If your payload is within the limits of your vehicle, stability is mostly a function of how your trailer is loaded. The proper hitch drop or rise is also important.  You should be towing as close to level as possible. If you are not level, and inch down at the coupler is safer than an inch up. Our vehicle is 4WD capable, but we have never used it, either towing or in Michigan winter snow/ice conditions. Handled 11% grades out west and some pretty rough native american tribal roads, even dipped the t@bs tires in the Atlantic ocean for a bit. 2WD only.

Sharon_is_SAM

@sbinco, we have a front wheel drive, 3500# tow capacity, V6 mini-van.  No problems towing fully loaded and do not need  WDH or sway control.  If you sway, you are either going too fast or you don’t have enough tongue weight.  Why do you think towing the Tab will put you near the top of your capacity?  Even at 75% capacity (2625#), you can still have room for about 600 pounds of gear.  What is the boondock model weight these days?

rajamar

X4 - we tow with a 2004 Sienna V6 FWD and have had no issues. Having never towed a trailer before, we had all your questions a few months ago, but found that once you get used to the delayed feedback from the T@B going over bumps you find that it is surprisingly easy to tow.

sbinco

Thanks for the responses folks!! I will stop worrying about the FWD part of the equation - you have all convinced me it's OK!

As for towing near the limit, some of the general information I have come across indicates that any weight that you add to the tow vehicle (i.e. people, dogs, gear, etc) counts against your tow rating. If this is the case and you have 350 lbs of people and 100 lbs of dogs, and bikes/gear/etc. of probably another 200-300lbs, then the tow rating would be derated by this. Is this a real thing, or am I totally out to lunch? We are talking about 700 lbs of cargo possible in the TV.  FWIW, the 320S Boondock with LP and battery is right about 2000lbs (according to the T@B website). Then there's 28 gal of water and whatever else I put in there. I guess it's not at the limit but when I did the math recently, and I added the estimated loaded trailer weight and TV cargo weight I came out to right around 3000lbs.....700lbs or so of that in the TV. I just want to be conservative about this and not do anything stupid. I am thinking it will be fine, but I did want to run this by experienced people to fact check me.

Previously we looked at larger campers (RPOD's or similar) and the math just wasn't working in our favor. We finally stumbled upon the T@B and spent about an hour at the dealer checking it out (laying on the bed, reconfiguring the cushions/table, estimating where the dogs might go, etc.) It was tight, but I think it will work. We were pretty excited about the whole affair and now I am just attempting to make sure the math all works.

I appreciate all of the great info/experiences you guys are sharing! 

jgram2

@sbinco This site might help you with your numbers. I have to google these terms every time I’m questioning myself cuz they won’t stay in my brain!
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/vehicle%20/gcwr.htm

Sharon_is_SAM

@sbinco, you need to know the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) for your TV and your Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) which is Tab + TV.  Here is what Mouseketab offered in a previous post:

“The ideal number to look at is Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR). That is the max of your tow vehicle and your camper. Fill up your tow vehicle with typical passengers, a full tank of gas and gear, and get it weighed, then subtract that number from GCWR. That is what you have left for towing.”

Your TV has it’s own limits and the Tab axle is limited to 2900#.  I calculated the weight of our TV with gas and people and the weight of a dry Tab with LP and battery.  Based on allowable weight ratings, I determined how much cargo we could carry.  I weighed our cargo, too.  If you are near your limit, don’t tow with full tanks.  Also, consider that even if your tow capacity is 3500#, it is recommended that you limit this to 75% or 2625#.

MuttonChops

@sbinco

The 2011 RAV4 Owners Manual implies Toyota did not intend for the RAV4 to be used as a towing platform with the manual's “but if you do warnings”. For that reason do agree you are being smart to work the numbers and know what your margins are.

Typical manufacturer Tow Ratings assume the towing vehicle has a Driver and a full tank of gasoline. So any cargo/passengers above the driver & gas do reduce the Tow Rating, also the towing vehicle payload (GVWR – curb weight) is reduced by the trailer tongue weight.

You estimate your TV load at 700# (without tongue weight).  If tongue weight is 240# then the total load is 940#  and you're 115# over the RAV4 GVWR (based on the Owners manual 825# payload).  So you will have to reduce the amount of extra gear carried in the RAV4 . . . shift more weight to the trailer.

The 3,500# tow rating is with just you. Assuming you get the total TV load down to 800# and 200# of that is the driver, then real world Tow Rating is:

       3,500 - 800(payload) + 200 (driver) = 2,900 pounds

T@B 320 Boondock has a GVWR of ~ 2,800 #

assuming your camping weight were 2,400 #   ( about 500# of gear )

The trailer would be at 86% of your towing maximum.
And the RAV4 would be near 97% of it's GVWR.

My numbers are estimates based on web searches for 2011 RAV4 data.

They suggest the combination is doable but are nearer the limits than I would wish to operate.

Some sharp pencil calculations with actual RAV4 data (side door sticker) is needed.

You might find this web-site helpful . . . it calculates all axle loads for both standard and weight distribution hitches.

https://www.ajdesigner.com/apptrailertow/weightdistributionhitch.php 

= = =

  Any chance a different tow vehicle could be in your future ?

= = =

sbinco

Thanks folks..this is good stuff. As for a new (more capable) TV, it is in our future...just not right away. Our plan was to use the RAV for a couple years and develop some towing skills in some close to home campgrounds (within 2-3 hours) and see where we are at. I wanted to get the biggest trailer we could get without violating any safety concerns, and just do easy trips until we upgrade the TV. My estimates of gear were probably a little high and I can obviously transfer some of that weight to the trailer and tow with empty tanks.

One thing I have not been able to find is the GCWR for the 2011 RAV4 + tow load. I am assuming I can't just take the GVWR of the RAV4 (4600lbs, listed on vehicle) and add the max tow rating (3500lbs), as this would be too easy. The vehicle does have front/rear GAWR listed (2535lbs, and 2530lbs, respectively). Is GCWR a number Toyota is supposed to publish?

MuttonChops

sbinco said:

One thing I have not been able to find is the GCWR for the 2011 RAV4 + tow load. I am assuming I can't just take the GVWR of the RAV4 (4600lbs, listed on vehicle) and add the max tow rating (3500lbs), as this would be too easy. The vehicle does have front/rear GAWR listed (2535lbs, and 2530lbs, respectively). Is GCWR a number Toyota is supposed to publish?

While researching your original question did find one 3rd party web site with RAV4 GCWR data; which is around 7,510; a bit below GVWR + Tow Rating . . . maybe somethings like tongue weight are subtracted for GCWR (have not seen an industry formula for it's calculation) . . .

Did not save the web-address for this data and it is Engine Size based.

sbinco

Thanks for doing my work for me MuttonChops 

Will do some real world cargo weight estimations this weekend and see where I end up. I do appreciate the help.

tabiphile

Back to the the other topic in this post…towing with two wheel drive. @sbinco asks about all wheel or four wheel drive to tow with. Let’s unpack that just a bit.

If you are purchasing a tow vehicle with two wheel drive, the rule of thumb for towing is to drive the wheels that are bearing the majority of the towed weight. This suggests that a two wheel drive tow vehicle should be rear wheel drive. Front wheel drive increases the possibility of loss of control of the rear of the vehicle while towing. Many of the folks that post here and who tow T@B’s are probably towing with front wheel drive..and you are probably reading this and thinking, yeah, right..that’s a crock. But step away for long enough to consider how tractor trailers tow and how they are driven..always rear wheel drive. When your grandparents towed their camper cross country with the bel air wagon…rear wheel drive and lot’s of horsepower.

So,now let’s look at all wheel drive vs four wheel drive. A typical four wheel drive vehicle is a truck or an SUV that is built on a truck platform. That truck or SUV is a rear wheel drive vehicle and when 4 wheel is locked in it can then drive all four wheels. As before, the major load is on the driven wheels and when additional traction is needed, 4 wheel transfers drive to the case and shafts. Note that folks hauling the lawn tractors, horses, ATV’s etc. are almost always doing it with pickup trucks.

Finally, all wheel drive is now available in quite a few cars and mini-vans. Except Audi and Subaru, these are all traction sensing two wheel drive systems that are monitoring wheel slip before engaging drive in the other axles…so from a towing perspective, basically non-functional until after you need it. By the time your AWD vehicle senses that you need AWD, by design your wheels are already slipping so the engagement of AWD is always late…except of course Audi and Subaru. They are always driven and adjust the drive proportion based upon slippage feedback. And as you probably know, except Mercedes, most AWD vehicles are based upon front wheel drive platforms..so you are towing with the less weighted axle until there is wheel slip..

Finally, the rear wheel drive axle is a simpler design and more robust. Front wheel and all wheel drive shafts are smaller and more fragile by design. There will be far more wear and tear on a front wheel or all wheel drive TV than a rear wheel/4 wheel vehicle. Ask your mechanic about how long wheel bearing last in an all wheel drive car....then ask the same question about rear and front wheel. The answer will surprise you. The bearings loads on AWD cars are significantly greater.

Of course one advantage of owning a T@B or other small trailers is that you can overlook most of the shortcomings of front wheel drive or all wheel drive TV’s….most of the time. Regardless, it is a good idea to be aware of the differences..especially if a TV purchase is part of your plan.

Ratkity

Nice information @tabiphile!

db_cooper

@tabiphile is right on.  We tow with a RWD Xterra and even though it's a truck frame we've seen extra wear from towing the T@b.  We have a 6 cyl Subaru Outback, and while I would use it in a pinch, I'd rather not subject it to the stress.   Good info above.