No Alde heat on electric, but it works fine on propane

Verna

I’ve been living my T@B 400 since late July and I had not tried using electric for the Alde hot water or heating.  So, with highs in the low 50’s and lows in the upper 30’s, the fact that my house is sold, plus I’m in Campgrounds now, it was time to really try electric for the Alde heat and hot water. It didn’t work. 

The circuit breaker was tripped in the WFCO converter, so my hopes were high!  I turned the propane off at the control panel, waited two hours, and it was 4 degrees less than when I started. Since the Alde heat worked on propane, I knew the fuses in the Alde were fine, and the same for the 12V fuses in the WFCO converter. I had checked the electrical cord for the Alde a week ago, so I knew it was plugged in.  (There’s a new style cord that now plugs in and then it locks into place to lessen the likelihood of the cord coming out during travel.)

Then I went to the Alde manual for the 3020 Alde in our handy dandy Reference category (thanks you @scottg for keeping up with those pdf files!). I went through the manual and I could find nothing to tell me what was wrong.

My next step was to email tech@nucamprv.com, plus warranty@nucamprv.com. Creed was kind enough to send me the following response:

”When you are on anything less then 30amp you can actually turn the KW setting to 1KW and it will be at half power - allowing you to use electricity when on regular outlets.

 Hmm.. As far is it not working on electricity - could you check to make sure you have had your Hot Water setting in the middle selection? If you have it on empty there will be no hot water or heat (not sure why its even an option), and when you have it on boost mode (full shower bar) it will only heat hot water and not heat the trailer cabin.

 Another thing you can check is the Water and Glycol Boiler fluid temperature on the Alde Panel to make sure it is working - you will want to try it about 30min after turning electricity only on and allowing it to fully heat up. To get to this Temperature reading you will want to press the Key/Settings icon at the bottom right corner of the screen and then scroll 2-3 pages up and you will find a icon that says "Service" and then select that icon. When in the service menu you will want to scroll 1 page down and you should see "Glycol Temperature" and "Water Temperature”

 A healthy Alde will have a Water temperature between 110-130 on regular Hot water mode, and between 140-160 degrees on BOOST mode.The glycol temperature should be around 165-175 degrees.”

So, I checked the screen for the hot water setting. That was easy!  Move it to the middle setting, turn off the propane, and the Alde started giving me heat on electric!  I’m a happy and warm camper!

And my water and glycol temps were within the acceptable ranges, so Creed agreed they were fine. 

 

 

Sharon_is_SAM

@Verna, were you plugged into 30 amps or just a 20 amp outlet?  Using 2 kw with the Alde requires 16 amps, so if you are on a 20 amp circuit, I can see why you only turned on 1 kw.

So looks like if the 3020 display for hot water is not shaded (empty), then the Alde is effectively off.  Did you leave the propane off for testing purposes?

I looked at the Alde 3020 manual and I think I will offer myself up for interpretive services.  There is some awkwardness with their explanations!

MuttonChops

Verna said:

. . . time to really try electric for the Alde heat and hot water. It didn’t work. 

. . . email tech@nucamprv.com, plus warranty@nucamprv.com. Creed was kind enough to send me the following response:

. . . As far is it not working on electricity - could you check to make sure you have had your

     Hot Water setting in the middle selection?

    If you have it on empty there will be no hot water OR heat (not sure why its even an option) . . .

Wow, that is a big deal and nothing in the manual about it.

- - - I've edited my PDF manual - - -

Verna

@Sharon_is_SAM, at home I was plugged into a 15 amp circuit, and that is why I didn’t even try it at home.  I wanted to sell my house, not tax the electrical service!

I tried the Alde on electric last week at the first campground I stayed at, and that’s when I found out it didn’t work on electric. I didn’t have time to diagnose it last week, but I did have time this week. At üCamp18, I used propane for the water heater part of the Alde to conserve electriity for others. 

Yes, I left the propane off for testing before I sent Creed the email, and it is still turned off on the screen.  Last night was the first night I slept with electric Alde heat.  Now I’ll turn the Night Mode back on since I prefer to sleep a bit cooler than daytime temps.

I read the 3020 manual twice and I sure didn’t see an explanation for the hot water icon. I imagine when I set the options up, I mistakenly turned the hot water icon off, without realizing the ramifications of that action. 

I also read through about 15 pages of the posts on the Heating, etc. Category without seeing anyone else who had the incorrect hot water setting. I stopped when I got to posts that were mostly for the manual controls for the Alde.  So, this post will hopefully guide someone else who has the same problem. 

atlasb

Hey Verna,  Glad you are lovin the 400.  The Alde has been the item that has been the most challenge for us on our 400.  Our 320 was a 2013 and did not have the Alde.  While we love the Alde, I really would like to see Alde and or NU Camp to come up with a good guide on operating it.  All this to include how and what to make the various settings in the Alde control panel, How to properly set the thermostat etc.  About every time we think we have it set, we either have a cool shower or can't seem to cool it enough at night to sleep.  Once you get it dialed in, it will keep you toasty. 

Thanks,  Fred Donna and Jaxson

Verna

@atlasb, I had the advantage of having the Alde in my T@B S Max. I truly love the Alde!

It kept me warm in the other T@B and it’s keeping me warm in the 400. The only thing is when you overlook one little icon and each icon means so much.

While my favorite part is the heat and hot water, I absolutely love the Night Mode to set back the thermostat at night. It’s just like having the auto set back thermostat in a stick-built house.

After a while, you will get the hang of it and you’ll have it all figured out, and then it’s summer and you don’t need the heat. That’s what the forum is for—to be able to come back here next fall and double check your settings!  Thank goodness for the forum, other owners and the factory...and if you’re in up to your shoulders, there is always Alde USA

MuttonChops

atlasb said:

. . . While we love the Alde, I really would like to see Alde and or NU Camp to come up with a good guide on operating it.  All this to include how and what to make the various settings in the Alde control panel, How to properly set the thermostat etc.  About every time we think we have it set, we either have a cool shower or can't seem to cool it enough at night to sleep. 

Agree more factory instructions on how different Panel Setting interact would be helpful.

Have seen Facebook Posts that claim Hot Water is hotter on Propane than 120VAC.  I've not done controlled tests of that claim.

From experience do know the US Manual statement:

Since the hot water and antifreeze in the hydronic
heating system are heated simultaneously, the hot water
can be very hot when a high level of heating is required.

Is correct . . . without touching the mixing valve . . . the water temperature difference between a mid-day shower with cabin heat Off and an evening shower with cabin heat On is very very noticeable.  Mid-day is only  warm even with cold tap off while evening is hot, hot and cold tap must be used.

Petroffski

This thread solved my problem. I too tried electric heat (1K) and had problems with no heat. What I'm confused about is that I'm under the impression that I (we) should be able to get heat without water. I'm very leery of hitting the + button for hot water without any water in the trailer. I've already winterized (water drained) as it's getting quite cold here in AZ. Sorry if this has been covered already. I've been looking...  
Thanks

Sharon_is_SAM

@Petroffski, welcome to the forum.  I understand your trepidation regarding turning on that hot water setting.  The Alde manual is not very inspiring.  With the 3020 model, for some reason, they programmed the water setting to let it turn off the Alde completely if on electric, so, if you leave the water setting turned up one notch, it is functionally identical to the 3010 in the 320 TaBs. 

That is, if the Alde is turned on (in this case electric or LPG) and if there is water in the tank, it is heated by default.  We can't turn off that element in the 3010.  Yet, we can still heat the cabin without any water in the Alde tank - no harm done.  So, I figured, the 2 separate compartments in the Alde share their heat.  The water chamber wraps around the glycol chamber and that's how the water heats up.  

Here is a quote from online from Alde regarding the 3020:

"The heating fluid is propylene glycol antifreeze (ethylene glycol in Europe), and as it's heated, it exchanges heat through a stainless steel jacket with the domestic hot water (DHW) cylinder. If the DHW cylinder is full, the water is heated and also acts as an insulator, if it's empty, air is heated but no damage can result."

So enjoy your cabin heat!

Petroffski

Fantastic! That is exactly what I needed to know. Makes perfect sense in how it works. The WHY of having to "turn on" the DHW makes no sense. I'll just have to get over it!
Thanks tons!
Peter

MuttonChops

@Verna, @Petroffski

I contacted ALDE-USA about this and got mixed responses. Initially, Spencer quoted the user manual and stated the Cabin Heat should be on when the Hot Water control is set to Off (wedge empty). So I asked the question again since folks are reporting different results.

Spencer then tested his system with Only Electric Heat Source (full 2kW) and Hot Water wedge empty and his system heated the glycol as it should . . . heat elements did not turn off . . .

However, do not know which Alde Model 3010/3020 Spencer has or what Control Printed Circuit Board revision his system uses. Which could be why Spencer also stated this could be a software bug and we should provide documentation for him to forward to the factory.

Would some one with the issue and not winterized care to document?
Maybe control panel pictures;
(1) showing 2kW and/or 1kW 'On', propane 'Off', Hot Water wedge empty.
(2) Main panel showing a high cabin set temperature and status of glycol pump.
(3) Service Panel showing system temperatures.

Spencer's Email:

Other (MuttonChops thoughts, not Spencer)
NuCamp's comment that the Hot water empty wedge, hot water off, is meaningless does make sense. As long as the Adle has water in the boiler there will be hot water, you cannot turn it off as the water is heated by the glycol. If an empty wedge does turn-off the electric heating elements than that would be a software bug according to Spencer.

Perhaps setting Hot Water wedge empty when only on electric power causes the Alde to demand/set a lower glycol temperature (no need to heat water) which causes the cabin air to warm more slowly and we users 'feel' that means the cabin heat is not working ? ? ?

dsfdogs

I have the 3010 in my '18 320S, but thought I would test as I had never done anything with the water wedge except boost it. Whether electric on or off, gas off, can't make the water wedge go empty. Just half or full. Seems like Creed figured out a solution but Spencer didn't know there was a problem! Good diagram and info @MuttonChops

Petroffski

MuttonChops said:

Perhaps setting Hot Water wedge empty when only on electric power causes the Alde to demand/set a lower glycol temperature (no need to heat water) which causes the cabin air to warm more slowly and we users 'feel' that means the cabin heat is not working ? ? ?

When I tried the 1K setting, I checked it in the morning and the glycol temperature was a blistering 31°. That is 5° colder than when I set the heater the night before. So no... while a good thought, it certainly isn't true in my case. 3020 definitely NOT working. 

You mentioned in your most recent post about testing and taking pics while not winterized. Would winterizing be a problem for the heater? I can't imagine why except to possibly add unknown variables.

MuttonChops

Petroffski said:

You mentioned in your most recent post about testing and taking pics while not winterized. Would winterizing be a problem for the heater? I can't imagine why except to possibly add unknown variables.

Yes was just thinking no water in Adle tank adds a variable. Also the Service Panel would not have any water temperature information.

Petroffski

I know this is off topic but I hesitate to embarrass myself to the entire forum with a new thread... My Alde 3020 came wired with an unplugged three prong chord and a double outlet under the bed.  What is that chord for? I should mention that the heater makes hot water just fine without it plugged in.

MuttonChops

Petroffski said:

. . . Alde 3020 came wired with an unplugged three prong chord and a double outlet under the bed.  What is that chord for? I should mention that the heater makes hot water just fine without it plugged in.

For the ALDE to operate on 120VAC shore power source the 3-prong plug must be plugged into the outlet.

You are getting Hot Water with the 3-prong unplugged because the ALDE is using the propane energy source.  Default settings on Alde are 120V AC "On" and Propane "On".  If both shore power and propane are available normal operation is to use the shore power, if shore power is not available then Alde will use the propane unless you override the default by manually turning off the propane at the Alde Touchscreen.

On a T@B 320S it looks like this:

Petroffski

I suppose if you want toast you have to plug in the toaster! Obviously it runs on at least two circuits that don’t seem to talk to each other. The control panel, internal fan and sensors (glycol pump too?!?) work just fine without plugging it in. It begs the question; Why was it unplugged on delivery? I was a reasonably smart person until I met my match in the Alde 3020! I’ll plug it in today and let you know if I get toast, with or without hot water turned on. Thx

ScottG

@Petroffski, you are correct. The Alde's "brain" (control panel, internal fan, and sensors, and internal circuits) all work on 12V regardless of whether the Alde is plugged in or not. (When the camper is on shore power, the 12V comes from the converter.)

The glycol pump can run on either 12V or 120V--it switches automatically depending on the availability of 120V.

The two electric heating elements require 120V. If that plug you found is not connected, the electric heating elements will not work. The receptacle should be connected to a dedicated circuit in the 120V distribution panel.

I wouldn't quite say the circuits don't talk to each other, but they definitely serve different functions.

I'm not surprised to hear Spencer's opinion that there may be a software glitch. The problem being described certainly didn't make any reasonable sense.

Michigan_Mike

So is it an issue kicking up the boost to 2W on a standard 15 A residential receptacle?  Or must the setting remain at 1?   Will this impede the Alde's ability to heat the cabin or maintain the necessary Glycol temperature? 

N7SHG_Ham

@Michigan_Mike I assume you mean 2000W setting? If so that is about 17 amps and will take just about all the capacity on a 20A circuit. Whether the cabin stays warm on the lower electric setting is largely dependent on the outside temperature.

Michigan_Mike

N7SHG_Ham said:

@Michigan_Mike I assume you mean 2000W setting? If so that is about 17 amps and will take just about all the capacity on a 20A circuit. Whether the cabin stays warm on the lower electric setting is largely dependent on the outside temperature.

Yes,  just testing the system and used this thread to figure things out.  I did use the boost without issues and lowered it once I saw that the Alde temperature was up around 165 F.  It goes without saying, you learn something new every day.  

Photomom

This is from my 3010 manual - “when you have selected more hot water the circulation pump stops.” May be the same in the 3020.

Bayliss

Sure enough, it is the same, but with a little added clarification.  This has been a very informative thread and entertaining read.  Thank you all for the Alde tutorial!

ScottG

This is really no different than how the older analog (slider) controls worked in earlier T@Bs. The "hot water only" setting keeps the circulator off and produces hotter water (~150F) than the "heat and hot water" setting (~130F).

Therefore, the "hot water boost" in the digital panel is effectively the same as "hot water only" in the analog panel. The main difference seems to be in the automation (the boost is temporary with digital control) and the confusing configuration that implies you can turn off the hot water while keeping the cabin heat on--an extra level of "control" that seems more intuitive but doesn't actually do anything.

As much as the analog controls gave people fits back in those earlier T@Bs, discussions like these make me appreciate its simple effectiveness!  ;-)

JustJohn

ScottG said:

As much as the analog controls gave people fits back in those earlier T@Bs, discussions like these make me appreciate its simple effectiveness!  ;-)

That's why I decided to keep the original controll panel on my Outback. The digital panel is still in the box somewhere.

lkc001

@JustJohn--I don't suppose you know if a person could "reverse" engineer the control panel i.e.  have a digital panel control & would like to go a step BACK in technology to the simpler slider control panel?

ScottG

@lkc001, I know people have replaced the analog panel with the digital version, so it should be possible to go the other way.

I'm not sure if there is any difference in the wiring harness for one vs. the other, but my suspicion is no. I'm guessing the added features of the didgital panel are control in the panel circuitry itself.

Your best bet might be to just contact nuCamp and get their advice for making the switch.

Verna

The wiring harnesses are different as I had to change to the newer one with more leads to change from analog to digital display on my 2014 T@B S Max

lkc001

Thank you all for the info--bummer that the wiring harnesses are different and it can't be just a simple switch out of the control panel,  oh well, progress. . . . . . . . . . I always thought the slider control panel was sooo much easier to understand

ScottG

It might be a simpler switch to go from digital to analog, maybe just leaving some of the leads unused. As I think more about it, I suspect those additional leads are for the informational displays of boiler temperature etc. which are not relevant on the older panel.

Again, I'd check with nuCamp. Even if you do need to swap the harness they can probably set you up. The harness is reasonably accessible in the 320, as it mostly runs under the driver's side bench.

Ratkity

If anyone wants an analog, I have one and will ship for free. Keep in mind the analog has a rectangle shape. The old digital Alde controller that I put in my 2015 T@bitha was square and monochromatic, plus it had to have a backing to cover the open rectangular area. The new digital panel seems to have several extra options than the older digital. I'm going to have to pick V's brain about this. She may know. Or, go the easy route and go to the source! Call nuCamp