Not sure my brand new tow vehicle can tow the 400!?!?

[Deleted User]

Oh that makes sense. I've been out there on my head twice now looking for some sort of sticker but perhaps its carved in. I will take another look tomorrow.

MuttonChops

robyn769 said:

2018 JL Unlimited Sahara with Factory Installed Tow Package: 

Max Tow Capacity: 3500 Max Tongue Weight: 350 GVWR: 5500lbs

. . . . .

Thanks for the information.

My opinion is the Jeep JL is not a good T@B 400 tow vehicle (TV) and I personally would not use it as such. However, using the numbers you have provided which focus on very light loading of the TV and T@B 400 it appears it's possible to do. No question the JL will be operating at its limits and I hope you would always be taking the slow road to camping adventures

Comment on the etrailer aftermarket hitch
You can confirm on your TV if the hitch is mounted firmly to the JL's frame and not just to the rear bumper. If so then replacing your factory hitch with the aftermarket that does bolt to the frame would not be needed. Since we lack any other data source using the etrailer WC & WD load numbers for your factory hitch seems reasonable (if both are frame mounted).

One attached PDF file compares the JL towing a T@B 320 and a T@B 400. Of note is a lightly loaded 320 is well within the JL WC hitch range while a lightly loaded 400 will require WD to get the needed extra capacity.

The second PDF has the T@B 400 data input into the web-calculator. If you can get/keep the tongue weight below 400# it looks promising.

Again, I believe it will be difficult to keep to your lightly loaded plan. While this analysis says its possible to tow a lightly loaded T@B 400 with the JL you will be operating at TV limits. I would not do so due to increased safety risk and poor TV performance due to miss-match to the trailer.

Remember you asked for opinions . . . and that's all you've gotten . . . Good Luck.

Marceline

Jeep claims class II 3,500# towing
Real-world at sea level is 3,000#
Real-world at 3,000ft elevation is 2,730#
  at 5,000ft  2,530#
  at 7,000ft  2,430#

Where is this data from?
I have never heard that towing capacity assumes sea level and must be adjusted for elevation.
Also, it seems (by comparing to European ratings for the same vehicles) that US tow ratings have a fairly substantial built-in margin for error. So why the need to adjust "real world" capacity by 500#.
I am interested in seeing any authoritative source of data that supports your argument.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Mutton Chops!!! You are awesome for finding/filling out the charts for me! I owe you big time.  I'm going to print them out and look at them tomorrow.  My brain is fried after an entire day of this research.  I have a few ideas for cutting some base weight in the trailer. 

[Deleted User]

P.s. for sure my hitch is mounted to the frame. I am also going to buy the tongue scale recommended by etrailer.

MuttonChops

Marceline said:

Jeep claims class II 3,500# towing
Real-world at sea level is 3,000#
Real-world at 3,000ft elevation is 2,730#
  at 5,000ft  2,530#
  at 7,000ft  2,430#

Where is this data from?
I have never heard that towing capacity assumes sea level and must be adjusted for elevation.
Also, it seems (by comparing to European ratings for the same vehicles) that US tow ratings have a fairly substantial built-in margin for error. So why the need to adjust "real world" capacity by 500#.
I am interested in seeing any authoritative source of data that supports your argument.

Altitude
There are many articles on the web noting how internal combustion engines loose power at higher elevation and we have all experienced that lose.  Not all vehicle manufacturers note this in there literature, FORD is one exception (Ford Towing Guides):

For myself I reduce the Tow Rating by 3% per 1,000ft  . . . to allow improved safety, performance, economy.

Real-World sea level
All tow ratings assume the TV has a 150# driver and full tank of fuel.  Every item/pound added to the TV above those two items reduces the published tow rating.  It is not clear to me if tongue weight is included in the published tow rating (tongue weight is not listed as included in the standard definition of tow rating conditions I've seen) so for my calculation I add tongue weight to the TV which again reduces maximum trailer weight.  That way I'm adding margin if I'm wrong.

Marceline

MuttonChops said:

Altitude
There are many articles on the web noting how internal combustion engines loose power at higher elevation and we have all experienced that lose.  Not all vehicle manufacturers note this in there literature, FORD is one exception (Ford Towing Guides):

For myself I reduce the Tow Rating by 3% per 1,000ft  . . . to allow improved safety, performance, economy.

I think that it's not a bad thing to be very careful about overloading a tow vehicle, but the reality is that manufacturers are already building in substantial allowances for all kinds of factors in their published tow ratings. Ford seems to be just about the only manufacturer that issues a caution about the effects of altitude on towing. https://news.pickuptrucks.com/2015/09/should-your-pickup-tow-less-at-altitude.html And I don't think that this has anything to do with safety. I think that it has more to do with acceleration and fuel consumption. Your vehicle is not going to have any less braking power at 7,000 ft than 0ft.
An interesting chunk of text from the above article:

Looking at other manufacturers' owners' manuals, we couldn't find a single reference to reducing hauling or towing capacities at various elevations, so we contacted each pickup maker to find out why. Chevrolet Truck Manager Tom Wilkinson told us, "Engines do lose some power with altitude, but we have sufficient reserve to handle the payloads and trailer weights at which we rate the trucks." Nick Cappa of Ram communications said, "Ram is the only pickup manufacturer to use SAE J2807 towing criteria for all three full-size pickup truck segments, and we do not reduce the towing or payload capabilities of our pickups as elevation increases." Nissan states in its owner's manual that engine performance will suffer at higher altitudes, but says nothing about towing or hauling: "An engine will lose about 4% of its performance for every 1,000 feet above sea level that you travel. If you will be towing in high altitudes, it is a good idea to allow more time than usual due to the engine's reduced performance." Steve Parrett, manager of Nissan's southeast and south central region communications, said the performance loss applies "specifically for naturally aspirated" engines and Nissan does "not place any restrictions on GCWR as a result of elevation change."

Real-World sea level
All tow ratings assume the TV has a 150# driver and full tank of fuel.  Every item/pound added to the TV above those two items reduces the published tow rating.  It is not clear to me if tongue weight is included in the published tow rating (tongue weight is not listed as included in the standard definition of tow rating conditions I've seen) so for my calculation I add tongue weight to the TV which again reduces maximum trailer weight.  That way I'm adding margin if I'm wrong.

It's not correct to say that every pound added to the vehicle reduces the published tow rating. Each pound added to the tow vehicle brings you closer to the GVWR, which is separate from the tow rating.

The Jeep's Curb Weight is 4,277 lbs, the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating is 5,400 lbs and the Max Payload is 1,123 lbs. The maximum allowable tongue weight (which is considered part of the payload - not the trailer weight) is 350#.  So assuming that she can get the tongue weight down to 350#, she still has a margin of 773# for the Jeep payload. I travel for a month at a time solo and can guarantee you that I don't carry 750 pounds of stuff in my vehicle. 

If the T@B400 weighs 2600 pounds and the Jeep's tow rating is 3500 pounds, there is a 900# margin for the trailer. Even if she throws 300 pounds of stuff in the trailer (presumably behind the axle to lower tongue weight) she would be a few hundred pounds within the Jeep's towing limit. 

And it's important to reiterate that all of these manufacturer supplied ratings also have margin of safety built in. So the idea that you need a safety margin on top of a safety margin by not coming close to the vehicle's rating is a bit of a fallacy. 

I don't know what it would take to get the T@B400 tongue weight down to 350#. But if it's possible to do that while keeping the 10-15% tongue weight formula, and @robyn769 sticks to the other published limits for her vehicle and doesn't drive like a crazy person (ie keep it to 60mph) it seems to me that she would probably be OK.  It might be a slow grind over mountain passes, but it wouldn't necessarily be unsafe. Of course, it would be less complicated if she just kept the 320.

Here is an interesting piece (originally published on Jalopnik) about the difference between US and European tow ratings. The main takeaway is that our tow ratings are lower because Americans drive faster. So we can all improve our margin of safety (and gas mileage) by just doing as the Europeans do, and keeping speed down to 60mph.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-me-down-1609112611

jgram2

Since we buy used cars and keep them >10 years, I’d be concerned about engine wear if pushing the load limits, but that may be a nonissue for others. Members have also mentioned possible insurance repercussions in the event of an accident.

MuttonChops

Marceline said:

Here is an interesting piece (originally published on Jalopnik) about the difference between US and European tow ratings. The main takeaway is that our tow ratings are lower because Americans drive faster. So we can all improve our margin of safety (and gas mileage) by just doing as the Europeans do, and keeping speed down to 60mph.

Completely agree with the above statement.

Marceline said:

MuttonChops said:

Altitude

I think that it's not a bad thing to be very careful about overloading a tow vehicle, but the reality is that manufacturers are already building in substantial allowances for all kinds of factors in their published tow ratings. Ford seems to be just about the only manufacturer that issues a caution about the effects of altitude on towing. https://news.pickuptrucks.com/2015/09/should-your-pickup-tow-less-at-altitude.html And I don't think that this has anything to do with safety. I think that it has more to do with acceleration and fuel consumption. Your vehicle is not going to have any less braking power at 7,000 ft than 0ft.

Agree, altitude itself is not a safety issue beyond how acceleration could be a factor in causing/avoiding a dangerous situation.

I'm not 100% confident of verbal statements in the PickupTrucks article.  Really prefer to see written manufacturer documentation on the hope that several technical resources reviewed the 'statements' before publication.  Ford's published guidelines seem the most realistic.

Marceline said:

It's not correct to say that every pound added to the vehicle reduces the published tow rating. Each pound added to the tow vehicle brings you closer to the GVWR, which is separate from the tow rating.

Sorry, can not agree with your statement.  There are many sources which state adding weight to TV beyond vehicle tow rating test conditions does reduce the actual tow rating.  While collecting documentation to support this I did discover the 'test conditions TV contents' is greater than I have been using to calculate real-world tow rating as most manufacturers are shifting to SAE J2807 test conditions.

Honda even has a table based on Passenger load:

Toyota:

Chevy:

SAE J2807 TV Loading Test Conditions (reference):

N7SHG_Ham

What Americans slow down while towing? Nope never happen, we are all NASCAR drivers, must win the race to the next stop at all costs

Marceline

jgram2 said:

Since we buy used cars and keep them >10 years, I’d be concerned about engine wear if pushing the load limits, but that may be a nonissue for others. Members have also mentioned possible insurance repercussions in the event of an accident.

People should be more concerned about "engine wear" from bad driving habits than from towing within rated limits. 

[Deleted User]

Hi guys. Busy day and I haven't had a chance to catch up on the posts. Will read tomorrow. One thing in my favor is I travel alone so I'm 150 pounds to the good already! Haha Thanks for the continued assistance. 

db_cooper

More than engine wear, you should pay attention to the transmission.  Our Xterra has an transmission cooler, and with the 5000 lb tow rating I haven't worried about it.  This summer we were forced to use our 6 cylinder Subaru Outback, that doesn't have a trans cooler.  We got one of these, and it worked with a Subaru app to monitor the temperatures.

https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products-Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Scanner/dp/B005NLQAHS/ref=sr_1_4?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1546188208&sr=1-4&keywords=obd2+bluetooth

The results were that we couldn't use 5th gear at all,  temps rose dangerously high.  Even in 4th gear, temps were higher than ideal, but our mechanic said the fluid looked good when we returned, and not to worry.  We keep our cars to 200k miles at least, so we'll only use this car if it's the only one working.   Note the car had plenty of pulling power,  couldn't tell the T@b was there except on some hills.  But long term we would be looking at a new transmission.

If you can get one of these to work in your new Wrangler, it would be interesting to see what the transmission does pulling your 320.  If it's borderline, you'd have your answer on that part of the equation.  The device doesn't work on our Xterra out of the box, and I can't find the code to make it work.  It's a bit of a crap shoot, but you could return it to Amazon if it doesn't read trans temp.

manny

I, have a 2016 Honda Pilot AWD orig. 3500# tow rating  I added the trans cooler went to 5000#...   only have a T@B 320 CS_S...   1900 lbs..   just gives me more piece of mind.. safe camping robyn769

N7SHG_Ham

@db_cooper I belive it was on this forum or maybe on of the FB groups that a poster reported having to get a new transmission in his Subaru after towing for a year or two, was still under warranty. So you comments are spot on!

jkjenn

I would never have tried towing a 400 with my JKU. The Gladiator looks like a good option, but it looks like those are going to be more expe sive than my Grand Cherokee.

[Deleted User]

Great suggestion on the transmission cooler.  I checked and I see it is available for my Jeep! The challenge may be figuring out which one will fit based on my engine configuration.  I have the turbo engine so I know already it's a tight fit under the hood. 

[Deleted User]

I'm feeling more positive now about towing with my Jeep.  I realized the reason the tongue is so heavy on the 400 is the spare tire is mounted underneath the front storage area!  No brainer, that comes off and either goes mid-way in the Jeep, or I'm going to see if I can get it professionally mounted under the back end like where it was on my 320.  I'm also going to switch out the 20# propane tank for a 10# tank I already have.  That's a savings of about 30-40 pounds of tongue weight?  I also plan to remove the white table at the front and extra cushion. I will never use that area as a sleep spot.  I have a very light weight (and cute) folding table I can use instead if I want to eat there.  See, I camp alone so I HAVE TOTAL CONTROL over my camping domain, hahaha. I also hate to cook, so I would only carry the bare necessities for cooking. I'm still researching though. I'm still in research mode...stay tuned. 

DougH

Or four 75lb AGM batteries in rear storage for extra boondocking power...  but that might drop the tongue weight under 10%.

Marceline

robyn769 said:

I'm feeling more positive now about towing with my Jeep.  I realized the reason the tongue is so heavy on the 400 is the spare tire is mounted underneath the front storage area!  No brainer, that comes off and either goes mid-way in the Jeep, or I'm going to see if I can get it professionally mounted under the back end like where it was on my 320.  I'm also going to switch out the 20# propane tank for a 10# tank I already have.  That's a savings of about 30-40 pounds of tongue weight?  I also plan to remove the white table at the front and extra cushion. I will never use that area as a sleep spot.  I have a very light weight (and cute) folding table I can use instead if I want to eat there.  See, I camp alone so I HAVE TOTAL CONTROL over my camping domain, hahaha. I also hate to cook, so I would only carry the bare necessities for cooking. I'm still researching though. I'm still in research mode...stay tuned. 

I wouldn't get the 400 unless you're absolutely sure that you can get the tongue weight down to 350 pounds while keeping the tongue weight to 10-15% of the total trailer weight. If the tongue weight is too low relative to the trailer, you're inviting sway problems. I would definitely get the transmission cooler. And if the Jeep can be shifted manually, I would definitely do that when you're on difficult terrain (winding mountain roads). And I would drive conservatively - keep it to 60mph max.

 Honestly, since you already own a 320, I would just do another season with that trailer and see how it feels with the bigger Jeep. You might find that the extra cargo capacity of the tow vehicle will be enough to keep you happy without upgrading to a bigger trailer.

[Deleted User]

Based on moving the spare to the back, taking the weight bearing table out and swapping out the propane tank that I would definitely be below the 350.  I'm thinking 325 or lower.   I'm going to be using a sway bar and the jeep is equipped with trailer sway damping.  Yes, I can manual shift and I used that method with the 2ndoor and the 320 for going down hills. Unfortunately my primary reason for getting a larger camper is my cat is newly diagnosed with diabetes and needs insulin twice daily. I will need to take her camping g with me and I need space for her and her litter box.  It just wont work in the 320.  After I started looking at the 400 I realized the 320 was really just not what I needed it to be. I'm being told on the Jeep forum that my model came with an transmission cooler, yet another thing I need to 100% verify.  

[Deleted User]

I keeping track of all the safety recommendations. I just have to get accustomed to staying focused and not just hooking up and off I go!

mreric

are you sure that after all this reading and research is not going to make you want to switch car again just so you can feel satisfied? 

mreric

i dont know where the battery for the 400 is located,    but if its in the front you can also upgrade to lithium batteries,  they weight half of AGM batteries,.   very pricey  ,  but still cheaper then a new car.  


but my understand is that you you need 10-15% tongue weight in order for it to be stable. my T@b320 was more stable when i added more weight to the front end

N7SHG_Ham

@mreric 400 batteries are passenger side behind the axle and under the bed. @robyn769 you will save only about 20 pounds switching from 20# bottle to #10 bottle, the full 20 pounder is about 40 pounds total. Putting the 400 spare in the Jeep reduces cargo capacity of the Jeep by that weight and may reduce the available hitch weight capacity.

If you just bought the Jeep new, the window sticker should of listed available GVW, CGVW and towing and hitch weights along with maximum axle weights, yes? If you don't have that, the dealer should be able to tell you all that from the VIN. You need to get EXACT weights for YOUR vehicle as optioned, anything you find on the internet may or may not be correct for your particular Jeep. Some of the weight capacities are even affected by rear axle gear ratios (assuming Jeep offers options there?) Something like a gear ratio could be changed, BUT not easily or cheaply and with a 4x4 you need to change both front and rear gear sets, making it likely to never happen unless you have a lot of cash to burn, in which case you would just take a bath on the current Jeep and buy a correctly equipped replacement.

I think once you find out the exact weights for your vehicle as currently equipped, the advice here or anyplace else will be a lot more relevant. Many RV dealers have ability to weight the tongue weight, before buying you might be able to remove the spare tire and table and propane bottle and see actual weights of a particular 400 you are looking at.

As much as you want to hear what you want to hear, please also consider once you get the exact weights those are facts and you will be able to either heed them or ignore them with full knowledge at that point.

[Deleted User]

Update, still waiting for the build sheet on my exact Jeep from the manufacturer. I also have my T@B dealer doing some tongue weight research on a 400 on their lot.  

lkc001

@robyn769
I don't mean to be negative towards you, so please take this comment in the manner it was intended and that is--information & knowledge for you                                                      "T@B dealer doing some tongue weight research on a 400 on their lot"  does NOT inspire confidence---I do not know your tab dealer, however, being a lifelong camper and owner of several different units, believe me when I say that it is a RARE RV dealer that I would trust that information to---meaning "take me and my possible new trailer to a scale and let me see it for myself"                                                                             You would be better served calling Nucamp directly and asking THEM what your tongue weights are---IMHO

[Deleted User]

I agree with you on the trustworthiness of the dealership. For sure I am not relying solely on their info.  I actually have a tongue scale in my Amazon cart and I plan to take it with me to the dealership  to do my own weight checking.  I was just getting them to do some preliminary weight checks to see what they com up with . 

Cbusguy

Reading this thread,  makes me shake my head.

Bottom line is the tow vehicle is marginally safe at best and worst case it is horribly unsafe.

The right thing to do is either buy a smaller trailer or a bigger tow vehicle.      You already know that.


What bothers me is the amount of effort digging to find a number that might make it work on paper.    The problem is paper never saved your bacon on a windy bridge or long up hill

Awca12a

The posted tongue weight is between 400# and 450# per NuCamp depending on if you have full tanks and so forth.  Please listen to @Cbusguy above.  No need to wait for the build sheet because if you are pulled over or during an accident investigation they will use the numbers on the data tag on your drivers door sticker.  If you post that photo here and you will quickly get feedback but most likely just answer your own question.   If you lift the front end due to too much tongue weight it reduces steering ability among other ills.