T@B Acceptable Mid-Size SUV Tow Vehicle

marksl

I haven't yet purchased, but am very interested in T@B 400 and hoped to tow with Honda Pilot (5,000 lb tow capacity, 500 lb max tongue wt).  I see T@B 400 has 460 lb tongue wt, so this seems too close for comfort/stability/safety. I see on "Travels with Delaney" YouTube videos they use Toyota 4Runner (5,000 lb tow capacity), which in the owners manual states tongue weight should be 9-10% of gross trailer wt, which for T@B 400 seems would be in the 360-400 lb probably (wet wt + supplies/clothing/tools, etc.).  So, to me looks like Pilot is very marginal, and 4Runner would be undersized regarding tongue weight.  I didn't want to have to drive full time (towing and daily use) in a pickup truck or full size SUV.  All thoughts and comments welcomed.

Homebodyatheart

Welcome @marksl! You are smart to do your homework first. If your goal is a 400 and safe TV then half your questions are answered. If you google ‘best tow vehicle for 7000 pound trailer ‘ you will find what you’re looking for. Best of luck in your search! 

lkc001

I think @Homebodyatheart meant your tow vehicle should be in the 6,500-7,000 towing rate range or more--you won't be  towing a 7,000 trailer if you get a 400

Cbusguy

@marksl  I applaud your planning ahead.    If you watch all of the TWD videos he discusses weight distribution hitches.   

Asking for an opinion here you will get all sorts from completely unsafe to bullet proof safe.    You are the one who has the final decision.

On paper your setup should be fine.     But you are the one who has drive it and if you feel unsafe you will always be second guessing your ability to tow.   So it sounds like you would be more comfortable in a different TV.    

As homebody pointed out from a 5k tow vehicle the next step is 7k.    without getting into a pickup truck or full sized SUV I am not sure of other options.    

A thought would be to rent a 400 for a weekend and drive it a  nearby campground and see how it goes.    

I am a pickup guy so I would say get a crew cab midsized pickup and go.  but that is just me

jgram2

Don’t forget older used vehicles. Our 2006 Toyota4Runner 2WD V8 has a towing capacity of 7200#s. We’re likely changing to a 4WD, as Portland gets more (a relative word) snow, but I love this 4runner! DH loves 4WD more.

marksl

I should have mentioned I currently do not yet own the T@B 400 or the Honda Pilot.  The thought of renting a 400 for the weekend is a good one, but won't work for me.  (I currently have only sedan and Honda CR-V.)

Awca12a

Great post and since I'm just about to make a vehicle change because of the recently discovered real world tongue weights .vs. published, figured I'd share what we decided to do and why.   We have the benefit of having pulled a 2018 T@B400 for two months before getting our 2019 400BDL with the same 2013 Toyota 4Runner.  The new 400 weighs in at 490# and it is noticeably heavier to pull than the 2018.  The weight measurement of 490# was done on two different days in two different locations.   While I was happy to see the factory weights are a bit lower, this was our experience.  Weight included: empty tanks, single full 20# propane tank, kitchen plates & utensils, 2 rolls of toilet paper and a full set of tools, hitching-up bag, electrical hookup bag & plumbing hookup bag in the cargo area.   This means that the tongue weight would be heavier without those tool bags.   

Since the water straddles the axle almost directly under the stove, carrying a full tank of water shouldn't hurt and might even lighten the tongue weight a bit.  Any grey or black water would increase the tongue weight as would any pretzels, Bourbon or trail guides stored forward of the stove.  When trying to balance the load, the black tank is closer to the front than the grey tank but both are forward enough of the axle to directly impact it.  To sum it up, clothes and weight in the cargo area lightens tongue weight, the refrigerator and closet are balance neutral and everything forward of the stove adds to tongue weight.   I know the engineering is more complex but for this purpose, the comparisons should be apt.

This made us focus on the tongue weight capability of the two vehicle.  Most salespeople and owners talk about towing capacity and flat-out ignore tongue weight except perhaps to talk about a minimum rule-of-thumb required on the hitch to minimize sway.   The tongue weight of the Toyota 4Runner is 500# and it has a 5000# towing capacity.  By comparison, the tongue weight of an F150 is also 500# although it can go from 7500# all the way to 13,000# depending on configuration.  The key point which was surprising to me, was that if you duck your head under the hitch, you will see a sticker showing the tongue weight capacity with and without weight distribution.  While the 4Runner is maxed out at 500# and requires a WD hitch to reach that capacity, the F150 can go north of 1000# pounds but requires a WD hitch to do so.   I couldn't believe what I was seeing on the F150 so I chatted with Ford and after 30-min of back and forth telling me about tow capacity, the admitted that nobody ever asks that question and found someone in engineering to confirm the 500# limitation without WD.

Since the nuCAMP is a "C" channel frame for which a WD hitch isn't advisable, there is another thread where the factory posted their recommendation to use a "bolt-on, link style" on Page 4 of this post: https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/6219/tab-400-weight-distribution-hitch-not-recommended-due-to-c-channel-construction/p4

That still left me as a 4Runner owner with a 500# maximum tongue weight so switching vehicles became a necessity as I felt uncomfortable being maxed-out in optimal conditions and overweight if I brought too many bags of carrots or a bit too much Bourbon and left it forward of the stove.   The F150 with Max Tow is a great contender and with a bed cap, offers the best of all worlds in that you can carry spare fuel & firewood in the back which isn't advisable in an SUV.  The only SUV I could find with a tongue weight greater than 500# that didn't need a WD hitch is the Ford Expedition at 600# hitch and 9020# towing capacity.   The SUV offers enclosed space and is 2 feet shorter than the F150 while being less expensive purchased used than an F150 but having a smaller gas tank at 28-gal .vs. 36-gal for F150.    Admittedly, I was focused on the F150 due to my need to carry large dogs and the seats don't fold flat in either the GM or RAM.    Still deciding between these two vehicles.  

Your research may vary but should you decide upon a used car, this website which takes depreciation into account helps figure out which model year is the best financial decision for a specific model & year for a used vehicle.  Glad someone took the time to do all that work because it was enlightening and helped me decide.   http://usedfirst.com/

Lastly, I've been looking for something in the 200" length but felt that the 4Runner up steep hills at 45-50mph was just a bit under-powered with the new 2019 trailer so I looked at the engine capabilities.  The 4Runner has 270-hp at 278-fp torque so I compared it to the similar sized Honda Pilot at 280-hp at 262-ftlb torque.   My guess is the 4Runner and the Honda Pilot will have similar performance characteristics on the road so I decided to look one size up from the mid-sized.  This isn't to say the Pilot won't do the job, only that with my 4Runner it was marginal and that was before I loaded it with people, dogs, water and so forth.   YMMV.

marksl

Thanks for the very detailed post, Awca12a.  Not sure where I'll end up.  Never had an SUV bigger than a CR-V, and don't really want one; that's why I was hoping the Pilot would work as a bit of a compromise.  However, as one of the early comments mentioned, seems like I answered my own questions; "We're gonna need a bigger boat!"  For me, I prefer SUV to pickup, so that doesn't leave me with a lot of choices; Durango, Yukon, Expedition, all very large compared to what I'd like to be driving when not towing, and I don't really want a smaller trailer.  Thanks again.

Awca12a

@marksl  I feel your pain as this will be my DD as well.  Wouldn't swap this for any other trailer all things considered.

Cbusguy

@Awca12a did not know that about vehicle hitches.....looks like a trip under mine is in order when I get home.     

Marceline

If you really don't want a bigger TV, how about considering a T@G instead of a T@B?

Sharon_is_SAM

@Marceline, he wants to buy a 400.  "and I don't really want a smaller trailer."

I see so many folks on the forum who quickly realize that the 320 is too small, I am glad when someone recognizes the space constraints in advance.  But, I wonder how the sale of the 400 has impacted the sale of the 320s?

marksl

Anybody consider the Airstream Nest?  Might be sacrilegious to bring up here.  My wife and I really like the T@B 400, but it looks like I either spend a bunch more money on a tow vehicle I don't really want, or maybe spend it on the Nest.  It has pretty much the same trailer weight with a 375 tongue weight vs 460 - 500 for the 400.  I think I'd be more comfortable towing that with a Pilot.

MuttonChops

marksl said:

Anybody consider the Airstream Nest?  . . . My wife and I really like the T@B 400, but it looks like I either spend a bunch more money on a tow vehicle I don't really want, . . .

I was looking at Nest before Airstream bought them out. Airstream Nest interior layout is odd and I'm not sure how livable it is.  Plus I had a negative exchange with the Airstream web-page moderator when he/she stated "There are no other high quality travel trailers".  Which of course I question as there are; including nuCamp.  25% of Airstream price is buying the nameplate.

Keep doing your research, if the T@b 400 is what you really like you'll find the right TV solution for you.

Have you considered the Jeep Grand Cherokee ?

P.S.  I for one believe the correct style WDH is 100% fine on a C-channel frame.

morey000

I've got your answer.  The Jeep Grand Cherokee is an acceptable mid-sized SUV with a terrific tow capability.  If you get the HD tow package, even the smallest 3.6L engine has a 6,200lb tow rating with a 620lb hitch weight.  There's also a 5.7L model that has a 7,200lb/720lb capability.  

Awca12a

Our family also has an Airstream and we love it, but ... I chose the NuCamp over the Nest because the Airstream quality is as poor as the NuCamp is high.  Check out www.Airforums.com and see if the rated hitch weight is accurate.  Having the Alde, Coolcat and quality construction is worth the Tow Vehicle nonsense.  

ADRawli

Following up on comments by both MuttonChops and morey000, we have a short time yet very positive experience with the 400/Grand Cherokee combo.  Since our GC will spend more of its life as a DD (mostly for my wife) and will require off rode chops for the fun side of us both, it had to be more than just a great TV.  I think we hit a pretty good “sweet spot” with our Trailhawk trim choice with the 3.6L engine. As was mentioned, it’s probably on the lighter end of the perfectly acceptable towing capacity scale, but it is safely in the range with 6200# towing/620# tongue weight capacity.  There are more powerful gasoline TVs to choose from (the Hemi engine options for example), but we’ll be glad for the better gas mileage when it’s not towing for likely 90% of it’s life span.  We just put about 650 miles behind us this past weekend and the GC handled the load well, with all the interior comforts we’d want in a travel vehicle.  We ended up with just under 13 mpg while towing over those miles (vs about 22-23 mpg without our T@B). That’s acceptable to us, so all in all, we feel very happy with our choice. 

Roamey

Maybe checkout the 2020 Ford Explorer rear wheel drive; not too small or too large?

db_cooper

I understand your not wanting a giant daily driver that occasionally tows.  For us, if we were to go bigger than our 320 we would have to look at other campers than the 400, due to the tongue weight issue. The Lance 1475 is on our radar. It starts at 3500 lb and 250 tongue weight, so you have wiggle room with loading. Plus it can be ordered with 4 season capability.

One thing we've found with RV's, everything is a trade off ...

PickledChicken

We are towing our 320 CS with our 2018 Outback 3.6.  Not even noticeable back there.  The Outback has a 2700 lb towing capacity but with the 200 lb max tongue weight you can’t go much bigger than the 320.

Blueespy

Awca12a said:

Great post and since I'm just about to make a vehicle change because of the recently discovered real world tongue weights .vs. published, figured I'd share what we decided to do and why.   We have the benefit of having pulled a 2018 T@B400 for two months before getting our 2019 400BDL with the same 2013 Toyota 4Runner.  The new 400 weighs in at 490# and it is noticeably heavier to pull than the 2018.  The weight measurement of 490# was done on two different days in two different locations.   While I was happy to see the factory weights are a bit lower, this was our experience.  Weight included: empty tanks, single full 20# propane tank, kitchen plates & utensils, 2 rolls of toilet paper and a full set of tools, hitching-up bag, electrical hookup bag & plumbing hookup bag in the cargo area.   This means that the tongue weight would be heavier without those tool bags.   

Since the water straddles the axle almost directly under the stove, carrying a full tank of water shouldn't hurt and might even lighten the tongue weight a bit.  Any grey or black water would increase the tongue weight as would any pretzels, Bourbon or trail guides stored forward of the stove.  When trying to balance the load, the black tank is closer to the front than the grey tank but both are forward enough of the axle to directly impact it.  To sum it up, clothes and weight in the cargo area lightens tongue weight, the refrigerator and closet are balance neutral and everything forward of the stove adds to tongue weight.   I know the engineering is more complex but for this purpose, the comparisons should be apt.

This made us focus on the tongue weight capability of the two vehicle.  Most salespeople and owners talk about towing capacity and flat-out ignore tongue weight except perhaps to talk about a minimum rule-of-thumb required on the hitch to minimize sway.   The tongue weight of the Toyota 4Runner is 500# and it has a 5000# towing capacity.  By comparison, the tongue weight of an F150 is also 500# although it can go from 7500# all the way to 13,000# depending on configuration.  The key point which was surprising to me, was that if you duck your head under the hitch, you will see a sticker showing the tongue weight capacity with and without weight distribution.  While the 4Runner is maxed out at 500# and requires a WD hitch to reach that capacity, the F150 can go north of 1000# pounds but requires a WD hitch to do so.   I couldn't believe what I was seeing on the F150 so I chatted with Ford and after 30-min of back and forth telling me about tow capacity, the admitted that nobody ever asks that question and found someone in engineering to confirm the 500# limitation without WD.

Since the nuCAMP is a "C" channel frame for which a WD hitch isn't advisable, there is another thread where the factory posted their recommendation to use a "bolt-on, link style" on Page 4 of this post: https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/6219/tab-400-weight-distribution-hitch-not-recommended-due-to-c-channel-construction/p4

That still left me as a 4Runner owner with a 500# maximum tongue weight so switching vehicles became a necessity as I felt uncomfortable being maxed-out in optimal conditions and overweight if I brought too many bags of carrots or a bit too much Bourbon and left it forward of the stove.   The F150 with Max Tow is a great contender and with a bed cap, offers the best of all worlds in that you can carry spare fuel & firewood in the back which isn't advisable in an SUV.  The only SUV I could find with a tongue weight greater than 500# that didn't need a WD hitch is the Ford Expedition at 600# hitch and 9020# towing capacity.   The SUV offers enclosed space and is 2 feet shorter than the F150 while being less expensive purchased used than an F150 but having a smaller gas tank at 28-gal .vs. 36-gal for F150.    Admittedly, I was focused on the F150 due to my need to carry large dogs and the seats don't fold flat in either the GM or RAM.    Still deciding between these two vehicles.  

Your research may vary but should you decide upon a used car, this website which takes depreciation into account helps figure out which model year is the best financial decision for a specific model & year for a used vehicle.  Glad someone took the time to do all that work because it was enlightening and helped me decide.   http://usedfirst.com/

Lastly, I've been looking for something in the 200" length but felt that the 4Runner up steep hills at 45-50mph was just a bit under-powered with the new 2019 trailer so I looked at the engine capabilities.  The 4Runner has 270-hp at 278-fp torque so I compared it to the similar sized Honda Pilot at 280-hp at 262-ftlb torque.   My guess is the 4Runner and the Honda Pilot will have similar performance characteristics on the road so I decided to look one size up from the mid-sized.  This isn't to say the Pilot won't do the job, only that with my 4Runner it was marginal and that was before I loaded it with people, dogs, water and so forth.   YMMV.

Have to agree, very detailed explanation.  Just got our 2019 T@B 400 BD Lite and our TV is a 2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk.  Tow capacity is 6200 and tongue weight about 620lbs.  Looking over our Certificate of Origin from the dealer, GVWR is 3500 in comparison to our 2018 T@B 320 CS-S at 2800.  It does feel a bit heavier on the road, but otherwise I don't expect we'll have a tow issue - fingers crossed.

Blueespy

MuttonChops said:

marksl said:

Anybody consider the Airstream Nest?  . . . My wife and I really like the T@B 400, but it looks like I either spend a bunch more money on a tow vehicle I don't really want, . . .

I was looking at Nest before Airstream bought them out. Airstream Nest interior layout is odd and I'm not sure how livable it is.  Plus I had a negative exchange with the Airstream web-page moderator when he/she stated "There are no other high quality travel trailers".  Which of course I question as there are; including nuCamp.  25% of Airstream price is buying the nameplate.

Keep doing your research, if the T@b 400 is what you really like you'll find the right TV solution for you.

Have you considered the Jeep Grand Cherokee ?

P.S.  I for one believe the correct style WDH is 100% fine on a C-channel frame.

First, I have a 2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk and so far on two trips have had no issue pulling our 2019 T@B 400 BD Lite.  Second, we looked at the AirStream Nest and visited the local RV dealership several times.  we had a couple of issues I had with the NEST.  The awning is on the side so you'll get wet getting outside to get under the awning.  Perhaps not an issue for some - we did purchase the eyelid awning for our 400, but something to consider.  Any solar ability was extra and the salesperson wasn't sure if it was even a doable option.  We were upgrading from a 320 CS-S, so having a dedicated sleeping area/eating area was important and that ruled out the NEST.  We did like the shower design, one total unit with no seams.  Doing an under carriage check we noticed there wasn't a great deal of clearance around the axle.  Since we wanted something we could pull on a rough road, our immediate thoughts were the NEST would bottom out.  It was also quite a bit more expensive and when we discussed trading our 320, we got low balled.  When the 400 BD was released, we called the dealership where we made our initial purchase and were given a great offer for our 320 and in fact they called today and told us they sold it.  It was on the lot for less than 2-weeks.  I also agree I think you are paying for the Air Stream name and I think the craftsmanship in the 400 is far better than the Nest. 

Blueespy

ADRawli said:

Following up on comments by both MuttonChops and morey000, we have a short time yet very positive experience with the 400/Grand Cherokee combo.  Since our GC will spend more of its life as a DD (mostly for my wife) and will require off rode chops for the fun side of us both, it had to be more than just a great TV.  I think we hit a pretty good “sweet spot” with our Trailhawk trim choice with the 3.6L engine. As was mentioned, it’s probably on the lighter end of the perfectly acceptable towing capacity scale, but it is safely in the range with 6200# towing/620# tongue weight capacity.  There are more powerful gasoline TVs to choose from (the Hemi engine options for example), but we’ll be glad for the better gas mileage when it’s not towing for likely 90% of it’s life span.  We just put about 650 miles behind us this past weekend and the GC handled the load well, with all the interior comforts we’d want in a travel vehicle.  We ended up with just under 13 mpg while towing over those miles (vs about 22-23 mpg without our T@B). That’s acceptable to us, so all in all, we feel very happy with our choice. 

We have a 2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk with the 3.6L and a new 2019 T@B 400 BD Lite and can't agree more.  Been on two trips and no issues.  For us our mileage hovers around 14-15 pulling the trailer and around 20-21 without.  I have found when pulling in mountains I engage the flip shift to 5th gear to put less stress on the 3.6L and transmission. We have added a Thule cargo carrier and in the back of our jeep we have an ARB travel fridge. planning a FL to Alaska trip in the coming months.

Deb55

We just bought our Tab400, and the only towing of any trailer ever was to get it from the dealer to home--about a 30-40 minute drive. We have a 2016 Toyota Highlander, with a 5000lb towing capacity, and a 500lb tongue weight capacity. The dealer recommended a weight distribution hitch, which we now have. Of course, we don't know anything about any of this and only went by what the trailer weight is, the tongue weight, and the dealer's recommendation. We towed it home fine, got it backed into our parking place, and didn't see any problems. We'll be making a long trip at the beginning of July, and we'll know more after that, but we didn't have any problems with towing it home. The mechanics at the dealership were confident that all will be well with this setup. 

Olena

I go through the same mental exercises too - I love my T@B 320, but one day would like more space. However, I don't want a huge car or truck (I have a Ford Escape now) because gas is expensive and for 8 months of the year I am not towing anything.

The only camper that I have seen that potentially will tick all the boxes is the Safari Alto (fixed roof series). I was able to see one at an RV show and they are very nice but I do admit they lack the character of the T@B! Altos are made in Quebec and I have heard there is an 18 month waiting list. I think the price is similar to a T@B 400.

https://safaricondo.com/en/caravanes-alto/

rkj__

Olena said:

I go through the same mental exercises too - I love my T@B 320, but one day would like more space. However, I don't want a huge car or truck (I have a Ford Escape now) because gas is expensive and for 8 months of the year I am not towing anything.

The only camper that I have seen that potentially will tick all the boxes is the Safari Alto (fixed roof series). I was able to see one at an RV show and they are very nice but I do admit they lack the character of the T@B! Altos are made in Quebec and I have heard there is an 18 month waiting list. I think the price is similar to a T@B 400.

https://safaricondo.com/en/caravanes-alto/

I’ve also checked out the Alto at the RV show. If I could not have a T@b the Alto would be my choice. I seem to spot more and more of them on the road with each season that passes. Last spring, I saw 3 in the same campground!

Luckyj

You weher mentionning a toyota pick up or a honda pilot with same towing capacity of 5000lbs

just one thing here, is that towing a trailer with a empty bed pick up make the back of that TV really light.  Witch can start to act funny in side wind, slippery surface and emergency manovers.

perso, I would go with the same capacity SUV anyday of the week.  And way more confo and secure cargo space.

if you do not need a pick up. Don't get a pick up.  

This is me,  all my younger years, I wanted a pick up, when I finaly gor one, I realised that a 4 wd station wagon of a wd SUV was more my type and way more practical for me.  I simply use a trailer when needed to.

but this is me.  Do what suit you.  

Have fun outhere.

jenniferlzr

Awca12a I'm glad you posted this. I'm trying to find a TV and the dealer told me the 4-Runner was fine for towing the TAB 400. I told him the tongue weight wasn't enough and he disagreed. Still on the hunt. 

Denny16

No, I would pass on a 4-runner as a TV too, especially for a TaB400

Intrinsic

We tow our 2019 400BDL with a Mercedes Benz GLE 350.  We have the factory towing package and the tongue and overall weights are well within the capacities noted both in the owners manual and on the sticker on the hitch.  

jenniferlzr

jgram2 said:

Don’t forget older used vehicles. Our 2006 Toyota4Runner 2WD V8 has a towing capacity of 7200#s. We’re likely changing to a 4WD, as Portland gets more (a relative word) snow, but I love this 4runner! DH loves 4WD more.

I'm looking at older SUV's and truck just to be my TV. I'm glad you posted this! How many miles does your 4-runner have? I'm not sure what is a good deal.