Air8 Performance in T@B 400 & Resolution (Coming Soon!)

Russel

I was scheduled to pick up my new 2020 Tab today, but have backed out because of the AC issues. I’m very disappointed because we loved the trailer, but I’m not willing to take a chance that NuCamp might fix the issue in the future. 

splatmatt

MandMs said:

We are in the process of buying a Tab 400 and have been told by the nuCamp rep that they are going back to the Cool Cat AC in the Tab 400’s. The Air 8 would have been a showstopper for us. 

I don't doubt your information but, who at nuCamp told you this?  Raphael said that he was unaware of the change when I asked him directly.  He just said that the T@B 400 Solo now has the Cool Cat.  The picture's exif data shows it was taken this morning with an iPhone X so I believe that Raphael did take a picture of a current production model of the regular (not solo) T@B 400.  When are you expected to get your T@B 400 with Cool Cat?  Is it going to be a 2021?

TNOutback

For what it’s worth, the label on my Air8 says 6,000 btu. Also, the factory sent me an air deflector/scoop last summer, fashioned out of the diamond plate tub material to install over the exhaust port. The deflector was very effective at evacuating the hot air out from under the camper, but I could not see any performance improvement in the air conditioner as a result. 

MandMs

Our order is written but not yet submitted and was to be for a 2021. Our dealer’s nuCamp factory rep is adamant that it would come with a Cool Cat yet the guy on the factory floor, who you’d think would know what’s going on, doesn’t know anything about it. Not good!  We’ve put our order on hold and are contemplating cancelling. Maybe let someone else order one and see what actually shows up??

TabberJohn

Anyone have a photo showing how the Air8 is mounted under the bed?
How much space is around it?

splatmatt

There are some video walkthroughs on youtube, but when I looked at it (in person) it was pretty tight.

rh5555

Here is the view with the bed top removed so you can see batteries too.

There is very little spare room.  To make more space the sewer line tube would need to be trimmed and the batteries moved back (possibly rotating them 90 degrees).  I could live with that...

VictoriaP

MandMs said:

Our order is written but not yet submitted and was to be for a 2021. Our dealer’s nuCamp factory rep is adamant that it would come with a Cool Cat yet the guy on the factory floor, who you’d think would know what’s going on, doesn’t know anything about it. Not good!  We’ve put our order on hold and are contemplating cancelling. Maybe let someone else order one and see what actually shows up??

Get it in writing directly from Nucamp before putting any money down. This is nothing against the factory, who I do think will eventually make good on this issue somehow. But dealers do lie to make sales all the time, or quite simply don’t know/understand problems like this. Best and safest for you to have it in writing from the manufacturer rather than the dealer.

Or yes, at least wait until the actual specs for the 2021 are public. IIRC, should be about 4-6 weeks based on last year’s timeframe? 

TabberJohn

@rh5555 - Well, that's a tight fit. Would a 35% boost in btu's suffice for mid-summers in Texas?
My assumption is nuCamp went with a modified, private label (Air8) version of the Truma Saphir Compact (6100 btu). That apparently works fine for the 320, but the 400 unit could have been modeled on the Saphir Comfort RC (8200 btu/1700W heat pump). The two units are the same dimensions (400x290mm) except length (560 vs 628mm), so the RC model is ~3" longer.
Assuming a 110v Comfort RC model for the US market would have similar specs, one practical solution would be to nix the sewer hose storage tube, move the battery box, relocate the exhaust/intake holes, and switch out the AC units.
The thermostat sensor also needs to be located more appropriately in the cabin.

Compact: https://www.truma.com/int/en/products/truma-air-conditioning/truma-saphir-compact.html
Comfort RC: https://www.truma.com/int/en/products/truma-air-conditioning/truma-saphir-comfort-rc.html
 

N7SHG_Ham

I have no idea how many 400's were built with the air8, but looking at issues I am guessing they got or will get complaints from every owner. As expensive as it will be to fix, I expect NuCamp to step up and do so. A likely fix is ripping the air8 out and putting a cool cat back up front, there will be a good amount of work involved and probably a factory visit. I think this is going to be an expensive lesson learned unfortunately.

I see zero way to retrofit a cool cat under the bed in the space available and the air8 is simply undersized for the task.

I guess the "hitch weight reduction" goal that started this whole factory redesign is out the window anyway since the "solo" models have already abandoned the air8 in favor of the cool cat back up front. Really the hitch weight was an imaginary issue to allow a smaller tow vehicle, reality is embracing what it is and buyers using a suitable tow vehicle seems like a good course forward.

TabberJohn

N7SHG_Ham said:

I see zero way to retrofit a cool cat under the bed in the space available and the air8 is simply undersized for the task.

I just posted that as an option. Not with a Cool Cat (lots of work), but installing a nearly identical unit (minimal work) with more power.
The question is whether 8200 btu is sufficient to resolve the issue and whether a US model is available. If not, it's a lost cause.
Loss of the storage tube seems like a reasonable concession, but I can see why those affected aren't going to be happy. Stinky or sweaty? 

N7SHG_Ham

Or sweaty and then stinky

NuCamp made good on the bad batch of floors which basically requires major surgery (seperating the walls from the floor, removing old floor and replacing. I would guess that also entailed removing all the other bits too that are fastened to the floor and walls), so putting a cool cat back in these units wouldn't be out of the question, they already know how to do it.

Raydar

I certainly hope Nucamp comes through fixing this issue. They were great when we had your T@g. We just bought a 2020 BDL with the air8 in it.  Bought it October 2019, didn't know there was a issue, until weeks later. Wouldn't be able to run the ac unit until Spring. Little to cold in Wisconsin. 

MandMs

VictoriaP said:

MandMs said:

Our order is written but not yet submitted and was to be for a 2021. Our dealer’s nuCamp factory rep is adamant that it would come with a Cool Cat yet the guy on the factory floor, who you’d think would know what’s going on, doesn’t know anything about it. Not good!  We’ve put our order on hold and are contemplating cancelling. Maybe let someone else order one and see what actually shows up??

Get it in writing directly from Nucamp before putting any money down. This is nothing against the factory, who I do think will eventually make good on this issue somehow. But dealers do lie to make sales all the time, or quite simply don’t know/understand problems like this. Best and safest for you to have it in writing from the manufacturer rather than the dealer.

Or yes, at least wait until the actual specs for the 2021 are public. IIRC, should be about 4-6 weeks based on last year’s timeframe? 

We’ve been told by a factory sales rep that the 2021 Tab 400’s will have the Cool Cat. However an email to their customer service department failed to confirm that. What we were able to confirm was they are still installing the Air 8’s in 2020 Tab 400’s. 2021 - who knows?  In spite of all of the problems with the Air 8 I am surprised they are still putting them into their trailers. Our experience with nuCamp has been disappointing and given the high price of their products, we’ve cancelled our order and we are no longer considering a NuCamp product.

davegct

really great information being shared in this great, thanks everyone and keep us all informed.  I am considering a TAB 400 (and not the Solo that has the CoolCat), but this Elwell AC issue needs to be properly resolved before I think of purchasing.

N7SHG_Ham

@MandMs if they get the AC sorted I wouldn't cross NuCamp off the list. Even with an occasional misstep they are overall head and shoulders above about 90% of any other RV. Horror stories about many other brands out there on the interwebs, research long and hard before buying ANY RV.

MandMs

N7SHG_Ham said:

@MandMs if they get the AC sorted I wouldn't cross NuCamp off the list. Even with an occasional misstep they are overall head and shoulders above about 90% of any other RV. Horror stories about many other brands out there on the interwebs, research long and hard before buying ANY RV.

I don’t disagree. Most RV’s out there are rolling disasters. The Tabs are nicely put together and if we bought one it would be our 3rd trailer. 1st one was crap, our current one is actually not too bad. We were just thinking about downsizing and initially liked the T@B 400. Heck we put down a deposit to factory order one. But nuCamp is still putting in the Air 8. They know it’s not doing the job and what I’ve seen on this forum suggests their fixes are bandaids at best. For what you pay for their product I don’t think you should have to put up with inferior components. Who knows, maybe we’ll reconsider them down the road a piece, but with how they appear to be dealing with the Air 8 situation we think it’s best for us to walk away. 

JCALD

Hopefully they will not continue with the Air8 in the 400s.  It would probably work fine in the 320s, but no where near enough cooling power for the 400.

—Certain language removed by T@B Admin, Verna. Please refer to the private message I sent—

ChrisFix

The entire logic of replacing the Coolcat with an air conditioner of less than half of its capacity makes absolutely no sense. I don't recall ever hearing a single complaint of "I'm too cold" because of the Coolcat!
And to use the Air8 and Coolcat interchangeably (as in continuing to use the Coolcat in the Solo 400) also defies any logic, whether it be from an engineering perspective or just plain common sense.
This whole issue really has me baffled in what NuCamp is/was thinking and how they go about making major product decisions.
And I feel disappointed that they won't disclose to folks calling them directly, whether the 2021 model uses the Air8 or not. This isn't a national security issue - just fess up to what has happened and what will be the corrective action already.

simonseyz

Thinking, there is no room to install the Air8 in the back on the solo model, so why didn't they install it in the front were they are now going back to Coolcat?..... That tells me the Air8 is not the right unit for the 400.

rh5555

Anyone ready for a physics lesson?

For air conditioners there is a parameter called the Coefficient of Performance which is the ratio of how much heat you can extract from your trailer to the amount of work you expend doing so.  There is a theoretical maximum to this value of Tc/(Th-Tc), where Tc is the (cold) temperature inside your trailer and Th is the (hot) temperature outside (both temperatures in K).  In reality no air conditioner approaches this theoretical maximum, but the shape of this relationship is still relevant.  You want to have Th and Tc as close together as you can.  This means making Th as low as possible (draw in the coldest air you can outside the trailer) and Tc as hot as possible (draw in the hottest air from inside your trailer).  Using numbers published for my AIR8 air conditioner and scaled using the above equation, this is how you would expect the ability to expel heat at various temperature differences

Interesting thing to note:  My AIR8 specifies a BTU of 8000 at a 15F temperature difference.  It is more usual to specify the BTU figure at a 20F temperature difference, where the value is 6000.  This might explain why some of us have 6000 BTU units and others have 8000 BTU - they're the same unit, just specified at different temperature differences.

The literature suggests that the degradation of cooling ability with increasing temperature difference is not this severe, but it is most assuredly an issue.  So, if we want to extract the maximum amount of heat from our trailers, we need to do 2 things:

1. Make sure that outside air drawn into the unit is as cold as possible:  This means that we need a serious barrier to stop the hot air exhaust being drawn into the unit.  We need more than the rinky-dink cowls that have been used so far, maybe a big vertical sheet that separates the exterior intake and exhaust; maybe a big fan; maybe both!
2. Make sure the inside air drawn into the unit is as hot a possible.  Ideally we should be drawing air from the top of the trailer, certainly not at floor level!  A fan inside the trailer to mix the air up would help, as would opening the bed, but the best would be a duct that forces the AIR8 to draw air from ceiling level. 
   

I'd try out these ideas myself, except it doesn't get hot enough here!  Any volunteers?

I think we'd all like to know if the AIR8 is inherently problematic, or just badly implemented.  If it is a bad implementation, then there is hope that the AIR8 can be made to work.

TNOutback

Excellent analysis! The best my unit could achieve last summer, in full sun, was a 7 degree differential. There will be no further testing of the a/c here in TN for quite a while!  I agree implementation is a problem for the reasons you state, plus having the thermocouple measuring cabin temp down inside the unit, and having ducts fitted near the floor instead of up high.  Exhausting the air straight down just traps the heat underneath the camper.  Even the small deflector I installed managed to lower the air temperature underneath the camper by 12 degrees, plus it had the added benefit of making the outside (door side) much quieter.

Tundra57

I am so glad I had a new Tab 400 2019 model instead of waiting for the 2020.

Even tho I got such a good deal on the 2020 I would have saved $500.

I ended up chosing the 2019 only because since it was a December model I reckoned all the bugs would be worked out and the new 2020 model would have been one of the first of the new design and  prone to new design problems. Also my chosen dealer, Miller Trailer Sales in PA were extremely knowledgeable and honest, specialising in nuCamp. They camp in one too.

I decided better higher cost and a good dealer than lower cost from a big sell everything know nothing dealer.

Glad to see NuCamp have realised the AC change was not a good one and are driven to fix the problem. I wonder what they will do with those of you stuck with the low output units.

Verna

Please read the referenced post:

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/10397/official-statement-from-scott-hubble-concerning-the-air8-air-conditioner#latest

TNOutback

Good to see a statement from Scott on the matter.  I appreciate him letting the impacted owners know, and I hope it gives potential buyers confidence to make the investment, knowing the company stands behind their products.

davegct

i have sent customer care an email based on the CEO response, regarding what AC units are being installed in the latest TAB 400 (original Air8 or upgraded unit mentioned) and what the plan is for 2021 model year.

tepe50

Our 2020 400s Air8 does not cool the trailer down effectively it seems to cycle on and off constantly going to give it one more try in warmer weather before I complain formally. I think a lot of people haven’t said anything because they’re waiting to see if there’s a fix or not. Other than that it’s my only real complaint about the trailer. A it's noisy.

Russel

I backed out of buying a Tab 400 a couple of weeks ago because of the AC issues. My wife and I have looked at many other campers including Airstreams, but we haven’t found anything we like as well as the Tab. Just not sure whether to take a chance on the issues being fixed on a 2020 or wait and see what NuCamp does in the 2021. 

splatmatt

Russel said:

I backed out of buying a Tab 400 a couple of weeks ago because of the AC issues. My wife and I have looked at many other campers including Airstreams, but we haven’t found anything we like as well as the Tab. Just not sure whether to take a chance on the issues being fixed on a 2020 or wait and see what NuCamp does in the 2021. 

We were in the same position, we even put money down for the 2020 T@B 400.  I called and emailed nuCamp about this issue and the response last week wasn't what I needed to be comfortable with the purchase.  I will say that on our 2018 T@B 320 S nuCamp did an excellent job with the floor issue. The latest response from the CEO still would not make me feel comfortable as it implies there are upgraded Air8 units, but in order to qualify for one you need exhibit an issue based on some criteria.  If they are using an upgraded Air8 going forward then wouldn't be reasonable to infer the original Air8 isn't sufficient? If I was a buyer (new or used) for the 2020 model year that would make me weary and could/would/should (lol) that drive the value down? I do think if your heart is set on a T@B 400, waiting is a good idea as it seems the 2021 should be released sometime in February.

The ambiguity even prior to the recent statement is why we purchased another brand.  However, a t@g may be in the future for us when we want something for more remote destinations and rougher roads. nuCamp seems to be a good company, how they handle these hiccups will either bolster their reputation or harm it.  Personally I wish the best for nuCamp as they do alot of things right.

cottonmouth

Yep. We've got one in production too. Supposed to be ready in February now. Originally it was slated for January, but I was told they shutdown work only on the 400s to "retool" and everything should be ready in February. I wonder if this has something to do with the A/C? I called and hope to hear more info tomorrow. If I don't get reasonable assurance for adequate A/C I'll likely cancel too. 30 grand is a lot of money to have inadequate cooling.