Propane Leak and Other Woes

ScottG

In advance of a final fall camping weekend, I discovered that neither my fridge nor my Alde would start on propane. (The stove would, however.)

While poking around under the hood, I also discovered a propane leak in the short hose that connects the propane tank to the top of the regulator. The leak was in the part of the hose that swivels just before it screws into the regulator

So, two questions...

1) Has anyone identified a replacement for this hose, preferably one that could be sourced locally in short order?

2) Could the leak be messing with the pressure from the tank or the regulator, resulting in the fridge and Alde not having sufficient gas pressure to ignite? I'm under the impression that both these appliances are pretty sensitive to proper fuel pressure, but this is getting out of my pay grade so I'm hoping someone can confirm or deny. Hopefully I have only one problem here rather than multiple.

Lastly, I'll add a community service announcement to frequently check your propane connections with brush and soapy water. I would not likely have found this leak had I not been investigating the no-ignition issue. If you have any doubt that propane is not something to mess with, Google "Farmington, Maine explosion"...

Thanks for any info or advice you can offer!

rcuomo

1.  Any good hardware store, maybe Home Depot or Lowe’s in the BBQ parts section or any place that carries a BBQ line should have the hose. 
2.  Absolutely, especially if the leak is significant enough that you smelled the gas or saw bubbles if you soaped the connection. Always a good idea to regularly check the connections. 

Cbusguy

What cuomo said,  most hardware stores should have them.   just pick your length.

JanandDave

@ScottG

Make sure you get the correct fitting on the regulator end of the new pigtail hose. Our 2016 320S uses a 1/4 inch inverted male flare at the regulator, not a 1/4 inch male NPT. I needed longer hoses when redoing the tub, and these worked. Good luck.

https://smile.amazon.com/SHINESTAR-Pigtail-Stainless-Connector-Connection/dp/B07D29SNMX/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=propane+pigtail&qid=1570116004&sr=8-8

jgram2

Although I’ve read about the soapy water test for gas leaks, I didn’t know exactly what to do, so here’s a link to a YouTube demo. 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pyW1stzGDWM There are others, possibly better, but this one’s quick.

ScottG

Thanks for the input, all. I managed to scare up a new pigtail from a small local RV dealer I had forgotten about. (Good tip about the inverted male flare fitting--mine has the same.) That fixed the leak problem and I was able to get the fridge lit with no further drama.

However, the Alde is still not cooperating. It has power, the fuses are all good, and the electric heaters work, but the propane burner still won't ignite. While I do like it a bit chilly, with temps promising to kiss freezing overnight I think I won't be boondocking in the T@B this weekend...  :-/

Any other bright ideas are welcome!

ScottG

Ok, a clue... A quick perusal of the Alde 3010 service manual indicates that the burner fan is supposed to kick on as the first step in the ignition process. Only when that is operating within spec is a spark generated and the gas allowed to flow.

Previously, I recall hearing both the fan starting up and propane burner igniting. Now I'm getting nada--no fan, and therefore no burner (as it should be).

So, anybody have a similar experience or any experience troubleshooting the burner fan?

Verna

@ScottG, you could try someone else’s last ditch effort and that was to remove all power from the Alde, 12V and 110V. Wait the typical 60 seconds and reconnect the power to the Alde. 

Sharon_is_SAM

Air in the line to the Alde?  In the Alde?  Call Spencer from Alde.  Any error messages?  

Did you try the Alde only on battery with LPG alone?  If you are on AC, and both the electric and LPG are chosen, the LPG will not kick in until the cabin temperature drops several degrees below the set thermostat temp.  Try raising the thermostat.

webers3

I check if the furnace is working by feeling the air at the furnace exhaust on the driver side. My latest experience, which had me scratching my head for a while, was when I tried to heat-up water and didn't hear or feel the furnace working. After reviewing  the Alde control panel I saw that I had both electric and propane heating turned on, when I turned of the electric heating the furnace kicked-in so I assumed that electric heating takes priority. Don't know if this is in fact what is happening but I've never had issues with Alde not working on propane except this one instance.

ScottG

@Verna, that test is currently in process--I turned everything off and will try it again when I get back home.

@Sharon_is_SAM and @webers3, I have the old analog (slider) control panel that is basically just an set of on-off switches with no diagnostics other than a multi-function red light that has not come on. Electrical heaters are off. Propane is on. Heat and hot water are on. Thermostat is dialed up to make the circulator start. There's nothing coming out the exhaust

Might end up consulting Spencer if the hard reboot doesn't work. Thanks.

JEB

ScottG said:

@Verna, that test is currently in process--I turned everything off and will try it again when I get back home.

@Sharon_is_SAM and @webers3, I have the old analog (slider) control panel that is basically just an set of on-off switches with no diagnostics other than a multi-function red light that has not come on. Electrical heaters are off. Propane is on. Heat and hot water are on. Thermostat is dialed up to make the circulator start. There's nothing coming out the exhaust

Might end up consulting Spencer if the hard reboot doesn't work. Thanks.

I think @Sharon_is_SAM is correct that you may have air in the propane line as a result of your previous leak at the pigtail.  If that’s the case, try running your other currently operating propane systems, including the stove, for awhile to keep the propane flowing and see if the lines clear enough to reignite the Alde.  With other RVs I’ve owned, I found that high demand propane devices tended to recover last when the propane flow was interrupted. 

ScottG

Well, the "hard reboot" did the trick. After powering everything back on the Alde made its familiar whirring and clicking and ignited without incident. Not sure what tripped or why, or if traces back to the leak/air in the lines, but it seems to have rectified itself. Hope it continues to behave for the weekend--just gotta' keep those overnight temps on the right side of freezing!

Verna

Awesome, @ScottG!  “Hard Reboot” sounds like a great name for this healing process. 

JEB

ScottG said:

Well, the "hard reboot" did the trick. After powering everything back on the Alde made its familiar whirring and clicking and ignited without incident. Not sure what tripped or why, or if traces back to the leak/air in the lines, but it seems to have rectified itself. Hope it continues to behave for the weekend--just gotta' keep those overnight temps on the right side of freezing!

For future reference, take a look at the troubleshooting section of the Alde 3010 manual. It does state that it might take longer than normal for the boiler to reignite after a propane interruption.  So, your experience is not all that unusual.  I suspect it still would have recovered on its own if given sufficient time. 

ScottG

Good point, @JEB, but what was bugging me was that nothing was coming on--no blower fan, no clicking ignitor, and presumably no fuel flow. When I flipped the switch, all I heard was a very slight, high-pitched electronic whine that lasted a few seconds. If it was propane interruption issue (and I'm not saying it wasn't) it seems like it tripped something in the circuitry that was able to automatically reset after a hard reboot.

It merits some more research, but will remain a mystery for now. I'll give it a try again later this morning and see if it is still behaving.

ScottG

@Verna, same idea as what you do when your computer freezes and won't respond to any keys or buttons.  :-)

The Alde sure is a nice appliance, but incidents like these add to my nagging feeling that it is a little too complicated for what is supposed to be a simple pastime. Of course, I'll probably feel a little more affection for it after putting it through its paces on a crispy fall weekend! 

JEB

ScottG said:

Good point, @JEB, but what was bugging me was that nothing was coming on--no blower fan, no clicking ignitor, and presumably no fuel flow. When I flipped the switch, all I heard was a very slight, high-pitched electronic whine that lasted a few seconds. If it was propane interruption issue (and I'm not saying it wasn't) it seems like it tripped something in the circuitry that was able to automatically reset after a hard reboot.

It merits some more research, but will remain a mystery for now. I'll give it a try again later this morning and see if it is still behaving.

Definitely a chicken/egg problem.  Did the boot fix the problem, or did the boot time give the propane system additional time to push propane to the burner?  Since propane is delivered to the appliances under pressure, because the bottle is under pressure, propane will eventually go where it needs to go without the appliances having to draw it (assuming no blockages).  I could see Alde installing an interlock that essentially keeps all the components deenergized until the sniffer detects that propane is present.  An interesting puzzle we probably will never know the answer to unless you wanted to force a fault by cutting the propane supply and seeing what works to restore normal operation.

rcuomo

Absolutely the loss of sufficient gas pressure will impact the solenoid valve and the start process of the burner:

rcuomo

From the 3010 Service Manual:

THE LPG BOILER

Starting

When the gas heater receives the signal to start, the system commences with an auto-check period in which the fan starts up at constant voltage and works at a speed of about 3000 rpm. If the speed is within the tolerance at the end of the period, a spark is generated, the solenoid valve opens the rst step for gas, and the speed of the fan reduces to 2150 rpm. When the burner ignites, the electronics receive a signal via the sensor, the ignition ceases and the burner burns at step 1 for at least one minute before going over to the second power step if the need for heat so requires.

If the burner does not ignite within 10 seconds after the gas valve has opened, the attempt to start is discontinued and a new cycle commenced. If this also does not succeed, no further attempts to start will be made, and the text “GAS OUT” will be shown in the panel. In order to reset the boiler, gas must be shut off on the panel and switched on again.

ScottG

Good info--confirms that a persistent low propane supply issue will shut down the entire start cycle. What bugs me, though, is I never heard the fan or the igniter come on even the first time I attempted start up, or after switching the gas off and back on at the panel. If I understand the service manual correctly, the fan and igniter should still activate prior to a propane fault shutdown. I agree that (unless it resurfaces) it may remain a mystery.

Regardless, the funny thing is I arrived at my campground only to discover that water and electric hookups had recently been installed at several sights. After all that trouble, I didn't need propane anyway... 

As a side note, I'll concede that the Alde does do a nice job providing quiet, consistent heat. Even from a distance I cold hear the jet-engine rumble from the hot-air furnaces of the neighboring Winnebago.