Anyone weight their tongue on a 400?

newcamp · June 2022

Did anyone with a 400 weigh their tongue? I'm interested in the actual weight with propane, batteries, full fresh water tank...

We are considering scaling up to a 400 Boondock and I would like to know what kind of actual weight to expect (knowing the website lists 336 dry)

Thanks!

VictoriaP · June 2022

Are you also looking to change vehicles? The 2015 Kia Sorrento in your signature, at 3500 lbs towing limit, falls short of the recommended 5000 pound towing capacity for a 400, and staying under the 350 pound tongue weight limit will be near impossible if you’re starting at 336 dry. With a 350 limit, 325 is about as high as you really should go, to leave yourself at least a small margin for error in weighing.

Denny16 · June 2022

The tongue weight on our TaB with water tank 1/2 full and empty propane tank is around 400 lbs, so loaded it is around 450 lbs.
cheers

[Deleted User] · June 2022

I have a 2022 400 and with the spare tire removed from under the tongue, a full tank of propane, and fully loaded to camp Im at 320. I do not travel with water in my tank. That would actually reduce tongue weight I believe because it puts more weight toward the back. I do travel very light though. I have added several memory foam mattresses to the bed. I think combined they weight about 50 pounds including bedding I guess. I also have lithium batteries but the loss of the significant weight of the factory batteries this likely added to my tongue weight.

I use a Sherline tongue scale. I carry the spare tire in my tow vehicle forward of the rear axle.

newcamp · June 2022

VictoriaP said:

Are you also looking to change vehicles? The 2015 Kia Sorrento in your signature, at 3500 lbs towing limit, falls short of the recommended 5000 pound towing capacity for a 400, and staying under the 350 pound tongue weight limit will be near impossible if you’re starting at 336 dry. With a 350 limit, 325 is about as high as you really should go, to leave yourself at least a small margin for error in weighing.

Yes, I was aware that I will be maxing out, possibly going over...

However, I'm speculating if the 2015 Sorrento is possibly underrated. Here is a post I just posted on the Kia forum that kind of explains what I mean:

"I have a 2015 EX 3.3L V6 AWD. It is rated for 3,500 lbs towing and 350 tongue weight.

Now, the 2016 EX 3.3L AWD is rated for 5,000 lbs towing and 500 tongue weight.

I put in the two vehicles in the side by side comparison at cars.com:

https://www.cars.com/research/compare/?vehicles=kia-sorento-2015-365911,kia-sorento-2016-374088

Same exact engine cylinder volume and displacement.
Same exact horsepower and torque (I assume it is the same engine, since everything is identical...)
Same wheels, same breaks, roughly same overall size of vehicles...

The only significant difference is the curb weight is 200 lbs more in the 2016

Don't know if the transmission is different, or radiators, transmission coolers...

What else could I look for, to understand why the 2016 is rated for a whole 1,500 lbs more?

I am considering trading up my travel trailer to a heavier one and I would be right around 3,500/350 but occasionally going over on overall weight and/or tongue.

Just trying to figure out what these numbers come from... I will be maxing out with my 2015, but how did they decide on these very round numbers and why are they so different?

Thankful for any suggestions.

Thanks!"

So, I am not saying I will blindly neglect the numbers and put us at risk, but I want to understand the issue better.

When we are out camping we see people pull all kinds of trailers with midsize SUVs. These people are not following the numbers...

I have been watching Traveling Robert for some time and he used to pull a MicroMinnie with an old Kia (rated at 3,500) and the Micro has a dry weight of 3,360 and dry tongue of 340. He travelled across the whole country multiple times and it seemed totally fine. Totally relaxed guy and I have never seen him with white knuckles. He also doesn't drive super fast I think.

In the end I might decide to upscale my TV, but if it is possible to make shorter trips with the Sorento pulling the 400, I would like to have that option in the meantime. I would be very cautious to not pack my trailer too much, but stove everything in the car, while traveling. I could buy a Tacoma or something next year, but not this year while trading up the trailer at the same time.

Thanks for reading along, I would be very interested to hear what types of TVs people are using for their 400s, especially SUVs, and what their experiences are.

Thanks again!

rfuss928 · June 2022

newcamp
IMO - Trying to rationalize that your clearly inadequate TV is actually marginally adequate seems ill-advised. The comfort and safety of a capable TV helps provide the confidence and peace of mind for stress free travel.

Sharon_is_SAM · June 2022

Not to mention the liability in the event of an accident. Insurance companies are not obligated to cover claims if you exceed the documented tow capacities. @newcamp - keep in mind that it’s one thing to simply be able to tow a trailer, but, the ability to suddenly stop the trailer or maneuver in an emergency situation is especially important. You won’t be the first owner to discover that they need a different TV. You don’t want the towing version of the tail wagging the dog😁

Horigan · June 2022

@newcamp
The 400 tongue weight varies greatly depending on model year. My 2019 tongue weight is 420 lbs.

The bigger concern with exceeding you vehicle tow rating is the liability exposure. If you get in an accident your insurance may not cover your liability, exposing you to huge financial costs. An upgraded tow rig would be much more cost effective.

newcamp · June 2022

Thanks for the input!

Yes, I have been reading lots of old threads in the meantime.

Seems they all go more or less the same way... someone really wants to tow with an SUV, tries it for a while, then quickly decides to upgrade.

Once in a while (not often) there is someone who says it is possible and they are doing it, but you have to consider so many factors, and is it really safe...

Anyway, we still have our 320 and it pulls really well. On a side note, I weighed the tongue the other day and it came to 205 lbs, even with a AGM battery and half full tanks. I feel super safe with the 320 and always enjoy towing uphill, downhill... just staying at 65 mph on the highway and will not go over.

Maybe that 400 will have to wait a bit more.

RCB · June 2022

Numbers for me, as follows:
vehicle Subaru Ascent 5000/500. WDH not permitted by Subaru.
2019 T@B 400 w/ tongue wt of 405 . Loose gear is stowed aft on the berth. Tanks are normally empty.
This is fourth year with the Ascent, and it does the job well.

newcamp · June 2022

RCB said:

Numbers for me, as follows:
vehicle Subaru Ascent 5000/500. WDH not permitted by Subaru.
2019 T@B 400 w/ tongue wt of 405 . Loose gear is stowed aft on the berth. Tanks are normally empty.
This is fourth year with the Ascent, and it does the job well.

Seems the Subaru Ascent people do well with towing.

Where are the Kia Sorento people...?

VictoriaP · June 2022

@newcamp

Everyone else addressed the safety and liability issues. +1 to all of that. I had to make a vehicle change due to tongue weight myself, and it stinks to shell out that kind of money, but it’s definitely cheaper than a post-accident lawsuit. Insurers try to weasel out of paying all the time; I’m not willing to give them more ammo by arguing internet theories of underrated weight capacities with them, when I know they use the manufacturers stated limit as fact when weighing claims. Just wasn’t worth the risk to me.

And there’s a lot to be said for having a solidly capable tow vehicle instead of a marginal or undercapable one. Comfortable towing sets the stage for way better trips. I didn’t enjoy stressing about tongue weight every time I packed for a trip. Having the 100 lb cushion I do now just improves the whole experience.

Something to check that I find many people aren’t aware of with the “travel light and store everything in the car” idea you’re proposing is that your vehicle payload is part of the same towing equation. Payload typically includes everyone and everything in or on top of the car, plus tongue weight. (Your owners manual should list any exceptions for your specific vehicle.) You may have a great payload capacity to start, but once you’ve subtracted the weight of a couple, any pets you bring along, and 350-450 pounds for the trailer tongue, there may not be as much left as you think for your camping gear. It’s worth keeping an eye on this regularly as you’re thinking through packing configurations.

marchule · June 2022

In response to newcamp:

I pulled a 320S with a 2019 Kia Sorento for 3 seasons. Never weighed the tongue. Never had any handling issues with fast stops. Got reasonable gas mileage.

Now pulling a 400BD with Kia Telluride. I do use a WDH. I have weighed the tongue with a bathroom scale and it was 363lb. The propane tank was full and my storage boxes were packed appropriately. I have not experienced any handling problems.

Gherzig · June 2022

I tow a 2021 400BD with a 2020 Ford Ranger which has a tow capacity of 7500/750. I worry less about bicycles or propane on the tongue than I would about weight stored in the rear of the trailer. Ford literature states that 60% of the trailer load should be forward of the axle. It is also my understanding that a full fresh water tank will improve stability (assuming within the allowable GVW) as it is located directly above the axle.
Perhaps a different story if you are coming home with all that fresh water now located in the gray and black tanks which are more forward.

Denny16 · June 2022

Also another difference between the 2015 and 2016 year model, may be a different rear axle and suspension, which are also an i,portent part of a vehicles two capacity rating. On a Jeep Gladiator Sport and the Sport MaxTow model, everything is the same, except the Max Tow model has the next size larger rear axle and different HD springs and schools, along with a lower gear ratio on the rear end.

@newcamp might consider trading his 2015 Kia on a newer model with the higher factory rating.

A vehicles tow capacity rating is based on several factors, including axles, suspension, engine capacity snd total vehicle weight vs the towable max weight. Actual vehicle performance towing the rated load is also tested.
Cheers

[Deleted User] · June 2022

Removing the spare tire from under the tongue (and the mounting bracket) takes about 60 pounds off the tongue weight (well the tire weighs 60 lbs) You then though have to bring it with you in the tow vehicle forward of your rear axle or you're defeating the purpose of removing it in the first place. You still need 10-15% of your total weight on the tongue so I'm just right at 320lbs.

newcamp · June 2022

Gherzig said:

I tow a 2021 400BD with a 2020 Ford Ranger which has a tow capacity of 7500/750. I worry less about bicycles or propane on the tongue than I would about weight stored in the rear of the trailer. Ford literature states that 60% of the trailer load should be forward of the axle. It is also my understanding that a full fresh water tank will improve stability (assuming within the allowable GVW) as it is located directly above the axle.
Perhaps a different story if you are coming home with all that fresh water now located in the gray and black tanks which are more forward.

We were just looking at a Ranger! Really like that truck. More than the Tacoma actually (surprising, because I always preferred Toyotas).

VictoriaP · June 2022

@Gherzig What’s your MPG when towing with the Ranger, if you know? I was driving behind one the other day and was really pleased with the size. Looks like a great rig to tow either Tab!

newcamp · June 2022

What is the actual recommendation for the tow vehicle?

The NuCamp website only says dry weight is 2,911 lbs and tongue dry is 336. Why are we saying that the TV needs to be rated for 5,000 lbs?

Not trying to argue, just trying to understand. Plus the RV dealer is trying to convince me the Sorrento is enough to tow with in the transition period before getting a truck. Not sure how to answer when he says according to the math we will be well under 3,500 with the trailer loaded so everything is fine.

Thanks!

Denny16 · June 2022

Check first with your insurance provider with any restrictions they may have about towing a larger trailer than the Sorrento is rated for. They may go by max ratings, and not actual load.

What others are trying to say, is you do not normally want to tow with a vehicle that is just barley inside the weight limits of what you are trying to tow. The TaB400 max gross weight is (GAWR) is 3900 lbs, so in theory, you could more into the trailer and go over the 3500 limit. You want a little extra towing capacity, so the TV is not maxed out with the tow load. Also you need to look and the curb weight of the TV, and it should be at least the weight of the trailer, or ideally heavier than the trailer, to have max control of the trailer.

Whilst you can physically tow a TaB400 with a Sorrento, you are on the edge, the Sorrento will be under a greater strain, and will wear out quicker, with the extra stress of its components towing a load it really is not capable of (even if just under the 3500 rating. You want a little overhead on towing capacity to handle unusual situations that might arise whilst towing, like a blow out on a tire. If your TV is just barley handling the trailer, putting it in a worst case situation may put the trailer out of control.

Most guidelines recommend at least a 20% additional tow capacity, so you are not close to being maxed out. A 3900 GAWR rated trailer times 20% gives you 4680 lbs, or a 5,000 lbs rated TV. Personally, I find a TV like a mid size truck or larger SUV to be the minimum I would tow with. Towing a max rating becomes es unsafe at any speed greater than 50-55 mph. If your plans are towing a limited distance at slower speeds, you may be fine, but not on highway/interstate highways and speeds. This becomes very much a situational issue.

I had a Jeep Renegade which also had a 3500 rating, and looked a towing a TaB400 with it, this was a no go. The Renegade would have handled a TaB320, which would be the biggest trailer I would attempt to tow with this little jeep SUV. A TaG is a better match. We upgraded the Renegade for a Jeep Gladiator truck, which has a 6,500/650 lbs rating, and this is the smallest TV I would use to tow the 400. Anything smaller and the trailer can take control of the TV and result in an accident.

I know this from experience towing a large trailer with a smaller TV, even if it was inside the rating (barely) a rough bit of roadwork at 45-50 mph resulted in the trailer taking control of the TV I was using. This is a situation you do not want to be…. And that is the rest of the story!
Cheers

Tabulating · June 2022

Yes, we weighed our tongue on our 400. We own an '18 400 and the tongue weight was found to be a bit more than the literature stated when we got it from the dealer.

To get decent resolution on a scale I bought a My Weigh XL 700 scale. It is accurate up to 700 pounds. I put a 2x8 on it and then just lowered the jack foot onto it. It measures one pound precision.

The company has since moved the axle forward to correct the center of gravity of the trailer.

We are one of those couples that towed right to the limit of our tongue weight. We used a 4-door Wrangler, rated for a a 350 pound tongue weight and a 3500 pound trailer. We carried very little.

As far as stopping and handling, the Wrangler pulled as well as any other 6 cylinder vehicle and with the trailer breaks tuned correctly, it stopped like it always did. The ride may actully have improved while towing. It is a rough, loud ride in any Jeep.

However, we did make many risk mitigation decisions. We removed the spare tire and carrying hardware. Then we stowed our spare in the rear luggage compartment. We also bought a Jack-E-Up and carried our jack in our back seat. We never carried any water or sewage in the camper except inside of campgrounds. And we set the cruise at 60. (Due to the exponential effects of speed on a coupled oscillator, increased speed is a driving factor.)

I made a spreadsheet and weighed everything we put in our 400. We only carried 290 pounds of stuff in our 400. Trust me, it isn't very much stuff.

For our year of 400, this put us 450 pounds under max weight our Jeep, 520 pounds under weight for our T@b, and therefore, 850 pounds below our combined total weight rating. Tongue weight was between 320 and 340.

Unless you are willing to make a serious commitment to towing within the prescribed parameters, I would not recommend towing with your current vehicle.

I am sure there are many here who say this is all too risky and that if we have to think this hard, we are taking too much risk. But, we don't all desire to drive a truck. Especially, when there are many ways to mitigate risk besides a higher rated tow vehicle. You just have to commit to being as safe as you can and certainly not breaking any prescribed limit.

If you get in an an accident today, your vehicle will most likely know your speed. So if you are worried about liability, make sure you are driving at an appropriate and legal speed.

To close, my Wrangler was a '12. Alas, it was time for it to enjoyed by someone else. As I said earlier, all Wranglers are a bit loud and rough. We found it hard to talk to each other on long trips.

Bill

Denny16 · June 2022

A Wrangler is a bit bigger and heavier than a Renegade. I wasn’t saying you need a truck to tow a 400, just a bigger and heavier TV than the Sorrento. A good size SUV will also work well, a Jeep Cherokee or Chevy Tahoe are examples. You just want the TV to have more mass than the trailer, and a little headroom on max capacity to have a safety cushion.

Cheers

newcamp · June 2022

Great answers. Thanks!

I think we will be looking at a small truck first and then eventually getting that 400.

newcamp · June 2022

Ok, here is the update. Went and traded in the Kia for a 2019 Ford Ranger XLT with tow package today. Excited!

VictoriaP · June 2022

@newcamp SWEET! Congratulations! Do please post your mileage with both the 320 and the eventual 400 once you get a chance to tow with your new truck.

newcamp · June 2022

Thanks! We really love it!

The only major change now is that we have decided to get a LGMax Roughrider instead of the T@B 400 BD.

We really need to save the $13,000 that differs between the two campers new.

I know that people here will tell me that the NuCamp is so much better quality, better heating, AC, cabinetry... Not disagreeing but we really also like the LGMax in many ways and it will allow us to keep doing what we love doing without huge monthly payments. My wife bought a new car earlier this year too.

Anyway, we have at least one more trip planned with the 320, going up to Vermont on Monday, so I will let you guys know what the MPG is for us with that one.

TomCanada · June 2022

We've been towing our 400 with a 4 cylinder Q5 and a 6 cylinder X3 for a couple seasons and they both do just fine. No need for weight distribution hitches, anti sway bars, or any other measures. They are small SUVs but German cars are rated for towing higher than many others of the same class (4400lbs) and we have had no problems, whether it's hills or wind. Fuel economy on the highway goes from about 8-9L/100km to 15-17L/100km. Basically around 2x the gas, depending which way the wind is blowing.. I know there are being here who swear by their trucks, but to me it often just seems like overkill. The manufacturer ratings already have tons of safety margin built in, so as long as you're within spec, you're good to go. 3500 though is definitely pushing it. And like someone above said, watch those passenger payload limits - those even in big SUVs/trucks can be a lot lower than you think.

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