Winterizing question - 2021 Tab400

xdr

Hi all, I started winterizing our 400 yesterday using the instructions in this thread and also the manual for the Nautilus system (https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/151043#Comment_151043). So far, its been very straightforward using the air coupler in the instructions provided by Fergie. 
My questions are: 
1. Do I really need to vent the Alde hot water coil? I have been using the HW low point drain in the Nautilus compartment and feel like I have the HW lines drained well. 

2. If I understand the Alde correctly, I can use the heater side with no issues for winter camping and just leave the HW function off. Is this correct? 

thanks!

ScottG

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "vent the hot water coil." There is no coil or vent, just a hot water tank and a drain with a yellow handle that doubles as a pressure relief valve. If that is what you are referring to, this recent discussion (including input from nuCamp) suggests that just opening the CW low point drain will also drain the Alde hot water tank.

I'm more familiar with the 320 without the Nautilus, but I'd be surprised if the 400 works differently. Someone else feel free to correct me if I am wrong!

Sharon_is_SAM

Yes @xdr - you can use the Alde to heat the cabin after draining the Alde water tank.  As you said, just turn off the hot water at the Alde control panel.

Denny16

And put the red valve handle (Alde bypass valve) in the horizontal position once you have the hot water tank drained.   When winter camping and using the Alde heater on, you could use shore/city water hookup, whilst camping (event run hot water too (red valve handle in vertical position). Then you would need to drain and blow out the water lines again, when the heat is turned off.
This would only work where you have a hookup to drain the gray tank as you use it.

Since the TaB400 washroom is also heated, a d the black tank is under the toilet in the washroom (above the floor), add some RV antifreeze to the black, and gray tanks to get the antifreeze in the lower tank drain lines and gate valves (every night if using a hook up).
cheers

Sharon_is_SAM

@Denny16 - I am thinking that if it is cold enough to warrant Winterizing the plumbing, then it would be cold enough to avoid hooking up to city water!  The hose may freeze😂

DougH

FWIW many RV parks I've wintered in for ski trips are fully frigid winter ready, and have their city water tap at each campsite encased in live heat tape. Don't know if you can see the wires leading up to the water tap in the pic below from South Fork CO near the glorious Wolf Creek Ski Area. I dont hook that to the T@B city water tap full time, but have used parks like that to fill my fresh water tank (heated) while I'm there, and only briefly drag out my sewer hose or fresh water hose when needed.

Denny16

Sharon_is_SAM said:

@Denny16 - I am thinking that if it is cold enough to warrant Winterizing the plumbing, then it would be cold enough to avoid hooking up to city water!  The hose may freeze😂

Yes, that is a good one.  But during daytime whilst in use, the hose is not likely to freeze unless you happen to be in Minnesota below 20F.  I would disconnect at night and drain the hose, put more antifreeze in the gate valves and grey tank drain.  But, yes, hose freeze is a risk here.

xdr

Dear all,
finished up winterizing our Tab yesterday using the Fergie method. Went really well. I did use the nautilus/pump to run some antifreeze into the lines. Am I right in thinking that no antifreeze was pulled into the Alde HW line? 

Thanks!

Sharon_is_SAM

It depends on how you set your valves.  Apparently, the red lever is just like the prior model Alde bypass valve.  Not sure why you blew out the lines if you only filled them back up with antifreeze.  Usually the whole point of blowing out the lines is to avoid having to use then rinse out the antifreeze in the spring.  

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/11798/winterizing-tab-400-2021

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/11969/tab-400-boondock-2021-winterizing

VictoriaP

Sharon_is_SAM said:

It depends on how you set your valves.  Apparently, the red lever is just like the prior model Alde bypass valve.  Not sure why you blew out the lines if you only filled them back up with antifreeze.  Usually the whole point of blowing out the lines is to avoid having to use then rinse out the antifreeze in the spring.  

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/11969/tab-400-boondock-2021-winterizing

Some of us are the “belt AND suspenders” type. 😁 I did both last year too. I had already blown out the lines, but needed a way to get antifreeze into that one part of the Thetford flush toilet that is prone to freeze cracking, and it was easier for me at that time to just use the pump to run antifreeze from the bottle. Need to modify my setup at some point to just get antifreeze into that one spot.

xdr

VictoriaP said:

Sharon_is_SAM said:

It depends on how you set your valves.  Apparently, the red lever is just like the prior model Alde bypass valve.  Not sure why you blew out the lines if you only filled them back up with antifreeze.  Usually the whole point of blowing out the lines is to avoid having to use then rinse out the antifreeze in the spring.  

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/11969/tab-400-boondock-2021-winterizing

Some of us are the “belt AND suspenders” type. 😁 I did both last year too. I had already blown out the lines, but needed a way to get antifreeze into that one part of the Thetford flush toilet that is prone to freeze cracking, and it was easier for me at that time to just use the pump to run antifreeze from the bottle. Need to modify my setup at some point to just get antifreeze into that one spot.


VictoriaP's reply is exactly why. I saw mention in a few threads about the Thetford toilet being prone to freeze cracking so I went extra cautious as this is my first time doing this. Also taking the trailer back to Sugar Creek in Jan so wanted to be really careful. 
The red lever was in the right position per the owners manual and the expanded manual from bandbmolders so I think I am ok. Just a bit cautious as this is all new to me but you all have been more that helpful and I appreciate it!

thanks!

Sharon_is_SAM

@VictoriaP - I think @BrianZ rigged up something to directly add AF to the toilet plumbing.  

@xdr - after reviewing several Nautilus winterizing threads, If you had the red valve turned horizontal, then AF bypasses the Alde and is drawn directly into the plumbing lines.  Sweet!  

The red valve issue seems to be when it comes to the Sanitizing mode in the spring.  That valve arrangement appears to draw water from the fresh water tank (including bleach) through the Alde.  At least that’s what the threads indicate.  Someone who has done this please comment!  Edited 10/28 - apparently the red valve turned in either direction is ok for sanitizing - see Berger comments below.

BrianZ

Good memory, @Sharon_is_SAM!
Yes, I connect a longer pump output hose to my toilet water line to run antifreeze through both, plus it covers the dump valve.  And that's after recovering the same antifreeze that I ran through the outdoor shower, so it is recycled through multiple plumbing systems.  All are blown out with compressed air first, so this is for extra protection.
Here are the photos..
https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/9137/a-modified-hybrid-winterizing-method-pump-toilet-shower

xdr

@Denny16
In my post above, I attached the bandb molders (the mfg) Nautilus manual. I found it quite helpful as it explains the function of the Nautilus and each valve well. 

x

Sharon_is_SAM

@xdr - the Nautilus directions for sanitizing the TaB are wrong and you will get bleach into your Alde unless the red lever is kept horizontal.  Edited 10/28 - per Berger below - you can sanitize as the Nautilus panel directs or with the red lever vertical.  Both positions prevent entry into the Alde tank due to the horizontal position of the white lever.

VictoriaP

Sharon_is_SAM said:

@VictoriaP - I think @BrianZ rigged up something to directly add AF to the toilet plumbing.  

@xdr - after reviewing several Nautilus winterizing threads, If you had the red valve turned horizontal, then AF bypasses the Alde and is drawn directly into the plumbing lines.  Sweet!  

Edited 10/28 - removed Sharon’s quote above to prevent confusion:). - Sharon

Another member suggests disconnecting the toilet supply line and using a turkey baster to flush antifreeze through:

MiquelCamo said:

I did the blow out (compressed air) method, disconnected the pump lines (empty filter, run pump), and added antifreeze to drain traps to winterize but after additional reading I decided my toilet valve needed some protection. I was able to prop the valve open with a 5 inch piece of wood, disconnect the toilet line and using a turkey baster, pump a couple of ounces in the line until pink stuff entered the toilet bowl. I guess I'm good to go until I read the next cautionary note from someone with more experience than myself. 

Sharon_is_SAM

@VictoriaP - MiquelCamo had a 2016 TaB.  The new cassette toilets have that bench style throne and no obvious supply line.  I wonder if it might be under the sink with the glycol reservoir?

Polanskyster

This morning I spoke to the person who wrote the Nautilus P3 manual at B&B Moulders.  I was told that the sanitizing directions are NOT wrong. As long as the white lever is horizontal and the blue lever is vertical the bleach will bypass the Alde system when sanitizing.  The direction of the red lever does not matter.

bergger

Polanskyster said:

This morning I spoke to the person who wrote the Nautilus P3 manual at B&B Moulders.  I was told that the sanitizing directions are NOT wrong. As long as the white lever is horizontal and the blue lever is vertical the bleach will bypass the Alde system when sanitizing.  The direction of the red lever does not matter.

Yes the sanitizing directions are correct.  It can all get a bit confusing but when the levers are in the sanitizing position water pumped in will not go into the alde hot water heater.  It will only go into the fresh water tank.  I've used this feature to put water into my tank when my alde is dry and nothing went into the alde.  Now if you use the "power fill tank" to fill you water tank it will also fill your alde hot water heater as well.  This is because the white lever is now verticle.  This is how I fill my system before a trip to avoid pumping water from the tank into the alde when I switch to dry camping mode.  When you are introducing fluid into the system from the outside hookup (whether from a bucket or a city connection) the white lever really controls where it goes first.  If the white lever is horizontal it will not let water get to the alde.  If the white lever is vertical then it will get into the alde, unless you do have the red lever horizontal (the final valve that allows or prevents water into the alde).  I feel like I'm talking in circles here.  It is confusing but you do not have to have the red lever horizontal if you have the other levers set properly in the "sanitize" mode.  If you do have it turned horizontal to make yourself better then I suppose that is fine too, but not necessary. 

Sharon_is_SAM

Thanks for that clarification @bergger.  The Nautilus P3 manual does indicate that the vertical red lever allows water to enter the hot water tank.  Maybe there needs to be a disclaimer “except when the white lever is horizontal”!  Clear as mud.

bergger

Yes clear as mud!  Trust the diagram and so far after a few uses the system seems pretty cool and useful. 

jkjenn

If using antifreeze, you can also flush the toilet until you get pink stuff coming into the toilet. That would also help you avoid bursting the supply line.

ChrisFix

@bergger
Do you know why the Nautilus panel has the Red lever horizontal to winterize, if the White lever being horizontal prevents water from entering the Alde?

Or does only the combination of the White lever horizontal and Blue lever vertical prevent water from entering the Alde (in addition to the Red lever being horizontal, regardless of all other settings)?

bergger

It has the red lever horizontal because the blue lever is also horizontal.  With the white lever horizontal the water goes to the blue diverter handle. With the blue diverter handle horizontal the water goes to the fixtures to winterize. This also means the hot water heater.  Therefore the red lever must be horizontal to keep antifreeze out of it or to  bypass the alde.  In sanitize the red lever can be vertical because the blue  lever is vertical.  In that configuration the blue diverter sends the water solution directly into the water tank and no to the fixtures which includes the alde.  It just sanitizes your water tank.  You then can go to dry camping mode and pump the mixture into all you lines of you want to.  Or if you want to sanitize all your lines and fixtures at once then skip sanitize mode and just set it to winterize.  Then the bleach solution will go to everything except the alde.  Just trust the diagrams.  They are correct.  The label for sanitize is just a bit confusing.  It just siphons  fluid into the water tank only, not into the lines of fixtures.  It should be called siphon to water tank only.  The nautilus manual is pretty good but reading it while using your system with water only will help you understand and trust it.  

TomCanada

bergger said:

With the white lever horizontal the water goes to the blue diverter handle.

That's not what the manual says.  Manual states:

Sideways - water goes to pump inlet

Down –water goes into blue handled diverter

TomCanada

I'm still confused as heck about the layout.. here again is the diagram I put together. @bergger I don't see how the white handle would impact whether in sanitize mode the liquid enters the heater.  Aside from the comment above about the white lever channeling water to the blue handle when horizontal (when the manual says this actually happens when the white handle is *vertical*), you also stated that in "sanitize" that the blue handle sends the inlet to the tank.  However, in sanitize the white lever is not sending liquid to the tank (via the blue handle), but rather to the pump, and the pump is sending to the cold/hot taps including through the heater if the red handle is set vertical.  See diagram reattached here for reference.

edit: (removing old/erroneous diagram - see below for up-to-date correct one..)

TomCanada

Ok I think I have this figured out.  Thanks to DST ending today for an extra hour of time

- the output of the pump doesn't go straight to the cold water taps like in my previous diagrams.  I realize now that the pump output actually goes to the blue handle *input*.  I've updated the diagram accordingly below.

- @bergger's analysis makes sense to me now.  Because the sanitizing liquid is going straight to the tank, and never hits the cold/hot/heater pipes, I can see that the red handle is meaningless.  I think there might still be some reversal in logic in the emails above (horizontal vs. vertical position of the white lever), but I think those may just be a typo and everything else checks out..  @bergger maybe you can confirm?

That said, I feel confident the below should now be right logically - at least based on the manuals!

Denny16

while the factory diagram is correct, doesn’t hurt to leave red handle in horizontal Alde bypass mode when Winterizing or Sanitizing, especially if you go to dry camp mode to pump sanitize solution through the water lines.
cheers

ChrisFix

Denny16 said:

while the factory diagram is correct, doesn’t hurt to leave red handle in horizontal Alde bypass mode when Winterizing or Sanitizing, especially if you go to dry camp mode to pump sanitize solution through the water lines.
cheers

I agree with this. I was looking over the various steps in sanitizing, and to get sanitized water into the lines, you'll need to pump from the fresh water tank...which will not protect the Alde hot water heater from receiving bleach water from the tank - if you use the 'Dry Camping' setting to fill the lines.
This is assuming that when the Nautilus is in "Sanitize" mode, it only suctions solution into the fresh water tank as was stated above, and not to the lines as well. I personally haven't tried this yet, and simply closed the Hot Water 'Red' valve when I sanitized my lines.

Denny16

You are not really cclosing the hot water red valve, by turning it to horizontal on the Nautilus system, but turning the valve from going to the Alde water tank, to a bypass line that goes directly to the hot water lines.  Their is a check valve on the water tank outflow, to keep water from going back in from this connection.
cheers

bergger

ChrisFix said:

Denny16 said:

while the factory diagram is correct, doesn’t hurt to leave red handle in horizontal Alde bypass mode when Winterizing or Sanitizing, especially if you go to dry camp mode to pump sanitize solution through the water lines.
cheers

I agree with this. I was looking over the various steps in sanitizing, and to get sanitized water into the lines, you'll need to pump from the fresh water tank...which will not protect the Alde hot water heater from receiving bleach water from the tank - if you use the 'Dry Camping' setting to fill the lines.
This is assuming that when the Nautilus is in "Sanitize" mode, it only suctions solution into the fresh water tank as was stated above, and not to the lines as well. I personally haven't tried this yet, and simply closed the Hot Water 'Red' valve when I sanitized my lines.

You could also just use the winterize mode and siphon in a bleach mixture instead of antifreeze.  This should fill all your lines and not go into the alde.