Real world cold weather experience

yardsale

Considering 320 purchase that will, among other uses, be used dry camping in the winter in temps down to 10 degrees F.  Will this Alde heat system be adequate in your opinions?  Condensation issues? 

dragonsdofly

@yardsale, if you keep active inside the t@b and dress well, you will be comfy at 10°F on 2kw from the alde (shore power). If you have shore power and add boost with the propane, you won't need the extra sweater/sweatshirt. While sleeping, especially over the alde, you can actually be toasty. 

DH and me survived temps below 0°F while stranded in Evanston WY with vehicle troubles in November 2018. Keep your cabinet doors open and ventilate the trailer to keep condensation to a minimum. We did have to wipe out the back corners of the cabinets twice a day to keep them nearly dry, but we were stranded for 16 days (plus the 4 days drive home). This extended period of time confined in the trailer certainly exacerbated the condensation issue for us but wiping the back interiors of all cabinets really helped. Long term usage in those temps (altitude 7,000 ft prox) is doable and weekends or short trips (dry camping) are actually an enjoyable adventure. It is more than doable but personally I wouldn't recommend frequent long term very cold weather camping. -Denise

yardsale

Denise, in winter conditions, boondocking, how  long would you say the propane might last with heat and cooking?  Your experience is very helpful for us!

dragonsdofly

@yardsale, depending on ambient temps a 20# tank will last us 4-7 days. We have a 3 way fridge also, so fridge, heat and cooking are all considered. I can say that the colder it was, the alde worked more and harder, using more propane, but the fridge had to work much less. Eventually, at -10°F, the fridge was working in reverse. It functioned as an insulated space keeping our food from freezing. To make ice so we could bring scalding hot tea to drinking temps, we put our ice trays outside overnight. (And we did drink a LOT of hot beverages!)

You will find from others with experience of different types that the t@b and its systems are incredibly efficient. We ran 20 days on the same tank of propane while stranded, but we were in a "closed for the winter" rv park. We had 30 amp service (shore power) for the trailer for 16 days, but used the propane to augment electric heat tbrough the alde. We did use propane exclusively on the 4 day, 1,700 mile trip home. The alde produces quite a bit more heat on propane.

We have boondocked and dry camped up to 7 days on a single propane tank with ambient temps in the 30's and nighttime temps in the 15-25°F range.

We have a group 31, 110 amp hr battery and supplemented with 80 watts of portable solar. We also supplemented with a ryobi propane 700 watt inverter generator. This helped put a little extra charge into the battery, and we ran the generator for 2 hrs or so every 3 days, which also was fueled by our t@b 20#  propane tank. We found the generator necessary because the low sun angles here in a northern state in the late fall and winter just aren't sufficient for survival and continuing function.This combo works well for us in the t@b.

pthomas745

Lots of owners have commented in threads.  Dragonsdofly's comment is a pretty good summary.  In your Alde manual, there is a section that discusses exactly how much power the Alde uses on battery and shore power, and how much propane the Alde uses. This is a comment from the Alde FAQ.

"The burner in the boiler operates in two stages. Minor heat requirement – lowest output stage (0.54 lb./h – 245 g/h propane) and major heat requirement – highest output stage (0.9 lb./h – 405 g/h propane)."

Here are the "winter camping" threads.

https://www.google.com/search?q=winter+camping+site:tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=AOaemvIU5_n90H4lZyNW3wujP6rpsv8cZQ:1635525308274&ei=vCJ8YfaTEMHK-gSbypyIDw&oq=winter+camping+site:tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsANKBAhBGABQmg5Y_TBgkDdoAXACeACAAW2IAckQkgEEMjkuMZgBAKABAcgBBMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwj24ZTIhvDzAhVBpZ4KHRslB_EQ4dUDCA0&uact=5

yardsale

Wow, .9 lb/hour translates to less than 24 hours in a 20 lb tank.  Not real functional.  Do you know what the btu output is for those two output levels? I don't have the Alde manual.

Denny16

The Alde manuals can be found here (you want the 3020 manual): https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/7722/alde-manuals-and-resources#latest
cheers

dragonsdofly

@yardsale, the maximun output and thus highest propane use is, I'm sure, correct. But, even at -10°F the alde is cycling on and off. The highest consumption rate is not constant. The burner does not come on and stay on for 24 hrs. That single tank has always gone multiple days, even in what is considered frigid temps.

yardsale

got it. That is  reassuring. nubie question, can the 320 be retrofitted for two twenty lb tanks?

yardsale

Looks like 2 20's is possible. Like the idea of lithium battery too.

ChanW

We've camped many times in the teens and twenties. A few times in the tens. Alde worked well.

We camped at -5°F below (night temp) in Ontario one long weekend. As @dragonsdofly did, we used shore power combined with propane. We were completely comfortable. We spent time outdoors x-country skiing, hiking, skating, etc. so didn't have the heat up high for some of the day. Took a bit of time (half hour?) to warm it up on return from excursions.

We don't run the Alde when sleeping, we like sleeping in the cold, and the Alde makes the bed too warm at any setting.

Condensation hasn't really been a problem - crack a window and crack the vent. 

Sorry, I don't recall how much propane we used at the extreme temps.

Spruce1

I used our 320 as a home office (sedentary, staring a computer screen) last winter here in Minnesota.  The thermostat was set to 62 degrees or so during the day and in the evening I would turn it down to the Alde's lowest setting. On the coldest days (5 or lower) it took maybe 30-45 minutes to warm to the point where I no longer needed a stocking cap.  My feet would often be cold so I got a very small electric heater to supplement the Alde, specifically at the floor level.  Most days in the winter I wore my Sorel Caribou boots. The heater was set to use both LP and electricity and I recall changing out the LP tank only once. My experience probably isn't the best example to estimate LP consumption.  Personally, i wouldn't hesitate to use the 320 for winter camping. My plan was to use it as a "chalet" during ski season but the areas I frequent in Minnesota either didn't allow campers or they set up space that was too distant from the hill. Hope this helps!

I should add too that I opened one of the windows slightly and cracked open the fan maybe an inch or two.  No issues with condensation. 

Da_Birds

Does the Alde keep tanks and lines from freezing or do you need to keep these winterized? I doubt we would ever camp in such low temps but would be good to know what is needed just in case.

Dutch061

It will not keep the tanks from freezing, they are below the floor except for the black tank on some models.

Brad

Da_Birds

Dutch061 said:

It will not keep the tanks from freezing, they are below the floor except for the black tank on some models.

Brad

Thanks! I thought the tanks would not be heated by the Alde. So I assume you will not have running water in such low temps. I would also assume that in CS models you would need to make sure the kitchen gets heat. However, I doubt most with a CS model are camping in these temps.

Dutch061

Since I have a 400 BDL, I can't speak to the specifics of the 320-CS, but my guess is that people use them but are not using any of the plumbing, other than possibly the toilet and flushing with anti-freeze.

Brad

ScottG

There are at least three owners I can recall who have modified the "basement" of their T@B to allow full use of the plumbing in sub-freezing temps. In general, this involves fully insulating the space enclosing the subfloor tanks and lines, and extending the Alde heating loop to provide a heat source for the insulated enclosure. 

Details are posted here somewhere. IIRC one owner even wrote up an instructional document. I can't put my finger on those offhand, but some careful searching should bring them up.   

Dalehelman

If you will be involved in outdoor winter sports. Bringing wet or damp clothes inside will create some serious condensation issues. Requiring more ventilation which means more heat loss. Something to consider.

yardsale

Dalehelman said:

If you will be involved in outdoor winter sports. Bringing wet or damp clothes inside will create some serious condensation issues. Requiring more ventilation which means more heat loss. Something to consider.

Yep, what we do with our Escape 17 is mount a curtain rod in the bathroom and turn it into a clothing locker with a somewhat isolated ventilation system.  Push clothing back or take if off when we use the toilet, and, of course, we don't use the shower in the winter as we are dry camping.

Denny16

On Da_Birds said:

Does the Alde keep tanks and lines from freezing or do you need to keep these winterized? I doubt we would ever camp in such low temps but would be good to know what is needed just in case.

On the TaB400, the Alde keeps the water lines and black tank from freezing, as they are all inside the cabin area that is being heated.  As previously noted, the Gray and Water tanks are under the trailer floor on all models.  Some 320s have water lines below the floor also.

On the new 320s with a cassette toilet, it’s black tank cassette is also inside the trailer under and to the side of the toilet.  The washroom in the new 320s is also heated now by the Alde.  Older model 320s did not have a heated washroom, but leaving the door open would keep it from freezing if the Alde heat is on.

The main area of concern for freeze damage is a full water/waste tank and the gray/black tank drain lines/valves that are below the floor and outside.  Drain the tanks, add some antifreeze to get it into the drain lines and you should be good.  You also need to drain any water lines that are also exposed.  

cheers

Slackers

Our 2019 CSS the galley gets heat because it is not sealed from the cabin.  The back of the driver's side bench is open to the galley, so heat from the Alde may indirectly move into that space.

ChanW

Don't depend on the Alde to keep the Tab warm while you're under way on the highway. 

The heat is pretty quickly blown out of the cabin at highway speeds!

Been there, done that. After a half hour/45 min. at 50mph and 10°F, with the Alde on, we had a large icicle hanging from our kitchen spigot.

So even if you can keep the interior warm enough to keep the pipes thawed while camping, you'll still want to winterize before you head down the road.

Da_Birds said:

Does the Alde keep tanks and lines from freezing or do you need to keep these winterized? I doubt we would ever camp in such low temps but would be good to know what is needed just in case.

Tabaz

Search "Winter Use of Our T@B" for a discussion on how to winterize the basement and sewer valves.

Da_Birds

Thanks for all the great information about cold weather. I feel a bit bad for somewhat hijacking this discussion since yardsale did say he would be dry camping. I just felt this would be a good opportunity to get some questions I had answered from an experienced audience. I was right!

yardsale

No worries, we'll get back eventually.

Maxcamp

can someone please clarify statements about using both propane and electric on the Alde.  Our 320S has a programming setting on the interface for Priority- use electric first versus propane first.  Are you actually running propane and electric simulataneously or is this just a backup in case one runs out?  thank you.  New user in cold weather.

Sharon_is_SAM

If you are plugged in and the “priority” is electric, propane is on, when you turn on the Alde, it will heat with electric.  But, if the cabin temperature is a couple of degrees lower than the thermostat setting, the propane will kick on.  Propane runs at 5 KW compared to almost 2 KW for shorepower, so the cabin heats faster.  After the cabin heats to the thermostat setting, the propane kicks off and electric resumes.  Propane will again kick on when the cabin temp drops.

Maxcamp

Sharon_is_SAM said:

If you are plugged in and the “priority” is electric, propane is on, when you turn on the Alde, it will heat with electric.  But, if the cabin temperature is a couple of degrees lower than the thermostat setting, the propane will kick on.  Propane runs at 5 KW compared to almost 2 KW for shorepower, so the cabin heats faster.  After the cabin heats to the thermostat setting, the propane kicks off and electric resumes.  Propane will again kick on when the cabin temp drops.

Great, thank you Sharon. 
Appreciate all the assistance and shared experiences on this forum.

On a side bar, Nucamp can't tell their buyers this critical information in an Operator Manual? Shameful negligence. 
We spent a sleepless first cold night repeatedly starting heat and shutting off the glaring blue screen, then later wondering why there the heat did not seem to be working... because it shut off along with the screen! 
Given no purchaser documentation about the user interface we had to trial and error our way to discovering the screen brightness control and discover how to keep the heat on by late the second cold night.
Here's all they tell us:

Sharon_is_SAM

Sorry Maxcamp8.  The Alde can be a steep learning curve but once you master the operation, you will appreciate the performance.  Regarding the provided instructions, as a new owner,  you don’t realize how the current owners manuals are vastly improved from past years.  Having said that, there is always room for improvement.  NuCamp does list the source of their information and refers you to the Alde operators manual in the packet of information that you should have received.  

“Most of this information was obtained from the Alde® 3020 Compact Manual. For complete details on operating the Alde® Heating System, please see the included operator’s manual in your owner’s packet.”

NuCamp routinely defaults to appliance operator manuals.  This means that we as owners have a lot of homework!  No matter, we are here to help you learn the Alde.  

Here is a link to some resources on the forum - found under the left column Category list, under Owners Manuals.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/7722/alde-manuals-and-resources#latest

One thing that you should also know that may still not be listed in the manual is to always tow with the battery switch turned “ON”.  The break away brake switch requires the use of the TaB battery in the event of a complete separation from the tow vehicle.  If the battery switch is turned off, the break away switch will not receive power.  So, always tow with an adequately charged battery and the battery switch turned on.

bergger

Yes there is a bit of a learning curve with the system.  It is a bit complicated but works well in my opinion.  Also you can program the control screen to go blank so it is not glaring bright when on at night.