Portable generator news

Sharon_is_SAM

FYI

https://www.rvtravel.com/feds-crack-portable-generators-rvt-1041b/

VictoriaP

The fact that generator manufacturers are only held to a “voluntary” standard by the government annoys the heck out of me, given that they are critical devices after major storms…critical devices that often kill more people than the storm itself. I’m so glad lithium and solar are becoming more the norm in the RV community.

RMo

Save the world with batteries and solar panels!

Dutch061

I think the CO comment in the article is a bit exaggerated. With that said, are there generators that are running too rich, without a doubt. But do they create more CO than 450 cars???

CO is a byproduct of imperfect combustion where there wasn't enough oxygen to burn all of the fuel present. CO is colorless, odorless, tasteless, but none the less very deadly.

There is also something that we called "pig rich", that is where you can see the black cloud of raw fuel that is being released. 

Unless something is running pig rich (visually), there is not a human being alive that can smell it.

This is another example of things being driven from non-factual information. Wait, our government would never do that, would they?

Brad

ckjs

I also doubted the claim about 450 times as much CO, and so browsed the Consumer Products Safety Commission report.  I didn’t find anything to back up the ProPublica/Texas Tribune claim. Some large generators are really dirty, putting out 3000 grams of CO per hour. Smaller ones put out 600-1000 g/hr — still more than is safe in a closed space.
Cars seem to put out around 10 grams per mile, so ~300 per hour?

The “fed crackdown” is pushing to require a CO detector-triggered shutoff for generators.  That doesn’t seem a bad thing to me. Some small Honda and Ryobi models already seem to include a CO shutoff. 

Dutch061

@ckjs

I think you may be mixing CO with CO2, please remember that CO is only produced when there isn't enough air to burn all of the fuel or there is too much fuel. 

Greatly simplifying the chemistry that happens with fuel control and emissions systems on vehicles, the catalytic convertor stores and releases O2. When it is releasing O2 it is using this O2 to finish the combustion process of any unburned fuel or hydrocarbons. To eliminate CO, you have to make the mixture lean but as you do this you raise combustion temperatures which creates oxides of nitrogen - NOx. This is countered by allowing the mixture to alternate between a slightly richer mixture to a slightly leaner mixture.

In perfect combustion, you have CO2, water, and nitrogen. 73% by volume of what goes in is nitrogen and short of temperature induced O2 molecules bonding with the nitrogen creating NOx it passes out the back unchanged.

So, to add a CO detector to a portable generator is not a bad thing at all.

Brad

ckjs

Dutch061 said:

@ckjs

I think you may be mixing CO with CO2…

Actually, that data came from Table 4 in the  CPSC report. I’m surprised there’s that much CO in a properly running engine; I guess parts of the combustion run lean rich (Oops, sorry about the mistake, Brad.)

pthomas745

This document has the info about the "450 cars" statement, but I don't know enough about generators.  (Sorry, forgot the link!)

https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/PresentationSAE_SETC.pdf

I'm in California.  The state is hot on the trail on the millions of gas powered mowers, blowers, and trimmers.  If the "small engine" industry doesn't adjust and actually attempt to improve the emissions (and the noise!) of these devices, they will start to be phased out.  Two stroke motorcycles have been on notice for a while here, as the CARB is making it harder and harder to pass emission requirements.

(This is separate from the danger of carbon monoxide deaths, of course.)

https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/california-bill-takes-aim-scourge-gas-powered-leaf-blowers

Dutch061

Please note that CO is caused by running rich, not lean.

I taught emissions and 4-gas/5-gas analysis for years.

Brad

Denny16

I have started phase out my small engines, replaced my string trimmer with an electric one, and got an electric battery blower too, they use the same battery.  Also going to an electric chain saw, and selling my gas outboard motors.
cheers

[Deleted User]

Funny I just bought an electric chain saw! 

gande

I haven’t seen any mention of propane fueled generators. Does anyone have any info on whether they are as polluting  as gasoline powered? 

Dutch061

There are 3 main advantages to Propane. 

1. Higher octane than gasoline, meaning it burns cooler and more controlled, less influenced by hot spots (think detonation), which also can reduce NOx
2. Boils at -40 F, so it is introduced as a gas instead of a vaporized liquid, which means it mixes with the incoming atmosphere better to create a more consistent mixture throughout the cylinder
3. Higher BTU per pound, so it provides more energy per pound than gasoline

Side benefit, since it isn't a vaporized liquid, there isn't any that runs down the cylinder walls into the crankcase, so the oil stays cleaner.


On the inlet side of all engines, you introduce atmospheric air (78% NO2, 21% O2, and 1% trace gasses) and fuel (Hydrocarbons)

In perfect combustion, there are 3 by products, CO2, Water, and Nitrogen (inert - meaning it doesn't support combustion) Since nothing is perfect, there are additional gasses.

CO - Carbon Monoxide - which is created when fuel is burnt but not completely due to either too much fuel or not enough oxygen. This is colorless, odorless, tasteless, but very deadly

O2 - Oxygen - which is passed through unburnt when there isn't enough fuel to burn all of the air

NOx - Oxides of Nitrogen, which is created when combustion chamber temperatures are in excess of 2500 degrees F, where O2 molecules bond with Nitrogen to convert NO2 to NOx.

In addition, there is usually a small amount of unburnt raw fuel that passes through, measured in PPM (Parts per Million)

HC - Hydrocarbons - raw unburnt fuel that is not to be confused with CO which is partially burnt fuel

Where the real problem comes in (as it did 50 plus years ago) is that people don't take care of things properly and regular maintenance is not performed. You can take a late 60's car (non-performance) and the tailpipe emissions will rival a modern vehicle under most normal operating conditions. The major problems were caused by people not taking care of things.

The exception is the NOx, which can be produced by ANY vehicle that is operated under a load but again is caused most often by combustion chamber deposits or a leaner than desired Air-Fuel ratio. The EPA fix was to install a catalytic convertor that could treat the NOx. NOx is blamed for low level smog in the larger cities. Today the concern has moved to CO2 (aka the greenhouse gas).

So, the bottom line with small engines comes down to keeping things like air filters clean, regular replacement of the sparkplug(s), and using clean fresh fuel (preferably without any ethanol added), along with a stabilizer, such as Stabil. 

Most people who wish to have a dual fuel or propane powered generator are wanting to get away from carrying gasoline in a can or dealing with the smell of gasoline that is in the generator. If you have use a SUV for a TV, I wouldn't ever carry a gasoline container inside the vehicle.

Brad

bergger

I am all for phasing out all small gas motors.  Electric is the path to be on.  But I understand that at this moment electric can't solve everybody's issues.  I only own one small gas motor and that is my snow blower.  I'm not happy about it but if there was an electric one that could deal with all the snow we get here I'd get one.   Even with my gas blower I probably only go through 2 gallons of gas a season so that is some consolation to me.  Even if everyone got rid of most or just one or two of their small engine products I believe it would make a difference.  And as far as generators go while camping.  I just do not like them.  Noisy and I just don't believe they belong in the backcountry unless it is needed for a medical reason.  

Denny16

Keeping up small engine maintenance is just as important as keeping the car serviced regularly.  I check air filter every month, or after using a mower in dusty conditions, keep oil changed annually (I do not run them enough to get to the change based on run time, which is the max time interval for servicing these engines.  Electric in small and medium equipment currently being gas powered is getting better.  If the demand is high enough, battery electric systems will replace them.
 Cheers 

gande

@Dutch061 @bergger @Denny16 Thanks for all the information! However, my question remains: Is a propane filled motor less polluting than a gasoline fueled motor?

Denny16

All things considered, I do not think so, or we would see more propane powered vehicles.  In the 1980s a move towards propane powered gas engines was being pushed, but long term results did not show a significant difference in total pollution, just a different type of pollution from propane powered, vs gas powered.  A already mentioned, propane is cleaner in terms of engine deposits, improving oil life.  But the exhaust emissions are similar in terms of the negative effect on the environment.  You could Goggle this to get the specifics.
 Cheers 

Dutch061

@gande,

If the engine is tuned and operating properly, it is not. If the displacement is the same, so it is going to produce the same volume of exhaust emissions. I doubt that with the low volume from a small engine is going to be much different regardless of propane or gasoline.

As far as "types of emissions", they will be the same things already mentioned. That doesn't change based on gasoline VS propane.

Again, where propane has become a popular choice for generators is for those who don't wish to deal with the smell of gasoline or bother with carrying a gas can. Most people carry a spare propane tank (or two), so it is easier for them to use propane.

Brad

gande

@Dutch061. Those are precisely the reasons I converted our Honda 2200 to propane before ever starting it. 

gulfarea

Most trucking companeys use propane to load freight in and out of trailers from the dock. I can go back many years because of my advanced age when they used diesel engines to do that. The fumes from doing that with diesel on a hot summer day here on the Gulf Coast inside the trailers were terriable! I also installed the propane kit on my Honda 2200 gen and will not use gas in it Art