Power Station question

PNWtabber

[Update:  I have a 2018 320S Outback/Boondock]

I'm thinking about taking advantage of holiday sales to get a power station, but not sure how to choose.

I like being able to dry-camp or boondock, but I am always concerned about recharging camera batteries and laptop.  Solar is not reliable for recharging a power station in the areas I tend to camp, so I want to balance power with size, assuming that I will have to charge the power station at home for use on the road with little opportunity to recharge.

How do I calculate how many watts I will need to charge my laptop's battery and to charge camera batteries?  For example, Renogy has portable power stations from 200 watts to 1000 watts.  They say their 300 watt power station can recharge a digital camera 34 times and a laptop 4-5 times (plus other gear), but I'm not sure if they mean that can do all of those things on one charge or just one (e.g., 34 camera chargesr OR 4 laptop charges).

Denny16

Goal Zero has this info on their website, showing capacity of their various size power units, in how long they can run or charge a given device, including those in your question.  

That said, you will get a better value and longer charge/run times, by upgrading your TaB battery to at least one (and possibly two) 100 amp.hr. Lithium battery/batteries.  This will give you a better capacity than the power stations that typically have a much smaller battery.  
 Cheers 

PNWtabber

Denny16 said:

Goal Zero has this info on their website, showing capacity of their various size power units, in how long they can run or charge a given device, including those in your question.  

That said, you will get a better value and longer charge/run times, by upgrading your TaB battery to at least one (and possibly two) 100 amp.hr. Lithium battery/batteries.  This will give you a better capacity than the power stations that typically have a much smaller battery.  
 Cheers 

After killing my original battery this summer, I upgraded to an AGM 100aH battery.  Discussions I've read about making the lithium conversion intimidated me (I have never felt particularly comfortable with electricity). 

I will definitely check out Goal Zero, thanks!

manyman297

I’d have to second what @Denny16 says. The dollar-per-watt hour of an upgraded battery setup far exceeds the hassle and cost of these power stations. 

I don’t mean to belittle your inquiry on them as I don’t know your personal scenario but they seem like an extra heavy thing to have to bring along and it’s doing the same thing your onboard battery and inverter are doing. And it’s another item you’ll have to monitor a battery level of…and they’re extremely expensive.

With that said, to answer your original question you’ll want to find the item you’re charging/powering that has the highest draw (watts). That will tell you the charging capacity of the station you need. Then look for watt hours. That’s essentially how much “fuel” the station has. To compare watt hours to amp hours (to get an idea of how large these stations are compared to your AGM battery) take watt-hours/volts = amp-hours …this is where you’ll start to see how expensive these stations are compared to a battery upgrade.

Again, I don’t intend to criticize those that want a power station but I think the marketing machine behind these make it seem like they’re an all-in-one solution for everything outdoors but for most rv’ers they’re just a redundant source of power. 

PNWtabber

@manyman297 -- thanks for your comments.  Perhaps you can help with my confusion, I thought the "household" outlets in the T@B could only be used on shore power and, therefore, would not be of any help in powering the battery charger for my cameras or charging my laptop battery if I am not connected to shore power.  Am I mistaken?  To be honest, I have never tried to use those outlets when dry camping because of my understanding that wasn't possible, I have only used the USB outlets when dry camping.

With respect to size of the power station, using the previously mentioned Renology 300 watt unit as an example, it weighs 6.4 pounds and is 7.1 x 6.1 x 5.6 inch in dimensions.

manyman297

Do you have a 400 or 320? I know that the outlet by the rear bed in the 400 is powered by the inverter (this varies by model year I believe). I’m not sure about the 320. As long as you have an inverter which I believe all more recent t@bs do then you can simply power on the inverter and use that 120v outlet to charge your devices. The inverter will draw about 40 watts just by being powered on so it’s considered a parasitic draw. But if you’re just charging small devices I don’t think it’s worth a second thought.

The physical size of that renogy unit is small. How many watt hours is the battery? That’s the most important factor besides wattage. For me it’s about having to keep track of all of these things and make sure they’re charged. If I just use my RV house battery as the only main “fuel tank” then it makes managing everything much simpler. My main goal is to just reduce redundancies. 

VictoriaP

I’ll argue both sides of this one: I do believe that upgrading the trailer battery is the best bang for the buck. 

However, as @PNWtabber points out, that alone will not get you AC power, and the 320s doesn’t come standard with an inverter that would allow for that to happen. @PNWTabber’s unit didn’t come with one from the factory, and neither did mine. It wasn’t even an option. Neither does everyone on this site have the DIY ability to install such, which a lot of folks here tend to forget. These big all in one packs have their place as a standalone solution; the same amount I would have to pay someone to install a better electrical setup in my trailer buys me a decent all in one that can handle my power needs in or away from the trailer, and that unit then stays with me when the trailer is sold.

I have three battery packs of the type in this thread, a 210wh EcoFlow, a 400 wh GZ Yeti, and a 1500 wh Jackery. Their primary use is for power outages at home, but each also has been put to certain tasks on the road.

For charging a laptop and multiple devices over a multi day boondocking trip, I’d probably go with a 400-600 watt hour setup. The smaller units are most useful for charging smaller batteries like cell phones or camera batteries, you can see from the graphic that a laptop takes a lot more power to charge. The larger units are overkill for that role…my 1500 as a camping device is meant more to boost my trailer battery for a couple extra days of sunless camping, or to run a fridge.

pthomas745

I've used a small 300 watt (or less) inverter for years with my small electronics.  The inverters plug into the 12V ports, and can charge any small device.  Since the 12V ports are fused at 15 amps, the biggest item you can run would be 180 watts....but, realistically, it would be easier to keep it lower than 150 watts.  Every device you mention has the maximum wattage of the device plainly marked on the power brick, etc.

I ran some tests about how many watts a laptop could use.  I tested them on a Kill-a-Watt device, and measured their exact power usage.  (The wattage listed on the device is the "maximum" it might draw, not the "actual" power it needs.)

I've always thought the "batteries in a box" were pricier than they should be.  I've used a small 30 ah battery with a 12V plug attached to it.  Plug the inverter into the 12V plug...and I can power what I want. People did this for years before the GZ's, etc hit the field.

This thread has the laptop measurements.  This was two laptops ago, so, YMMV.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/8886/use-computer-while-charging-or-use-on-battery

Here is my "portable power station."  30 amp hour battery.  300 watt Bestek inverter. With my portable solar panel setup, I can switch easily to recharge any battery I want, since I don't need any odd cables like the "batteries in a box" require.  The little battery is only 75 bucks these days, purchased in 2017.  Bestek inverter about 50.  I learned this from astronomy "star parties" a few years back when telescopes began to be computerized and some extra power was needed.  I have upgraded my original stock battery to a 100 ah lithium, which kind of changes the math.  If I wind up carrying a 12V fridge, I'll upgrade the battery to a small 50 ah lithium.  (The 50 ah lithiums are down to less than 200 dollars these days.)

pthomas745

To answer the question: if the "300 watt" power station means it holds a "300 watt hour" battery:  300 watts divided by 12V would equal 25 amp hours.  The batteries in a laptop are "generally around" 5 amp hours.  So, that is why the Renogy 300 watt setup would "charge a laptop 5 times".  The Renogy price for the 300 watt portable power station is only 200 dollars or so, and really...that is not a bad deal. 

VictoriaP

@pthomas745 I agree they’re typically overpriced, you’re paying for the convenient packaging of all components in one case, I suppose. I noticed earlier today that a number of these power stations are on sale…early Black Friday deals, I’m thinking. Prices are way better on some than they usually are. 

PNWtabber

Thank you @VictoriaP and @pthomas745 for helpfully addressing my questions.  
The model and year of my trailer are in my signature block, to avoid having to reiterate that information in every post.  

My laptop power supply says 130watts.  I don't know how to check the amp hours on the laptop battery.  I doubt I would ever be doing any heavy editing in Lightroom or Photoshop while camping, just photo review, backing up to an external hard drive.  Maybe that 300 watt unit is enough. Certainly seems portable.  I'll check some other brands first.

pthomas745

My current laptop has a 150 watt power supply.  Normally: the larger the laptop screen, and whether or not it has a dedicated graphics card determines the watts of the power supply.  Unless I'm doing anything very heavy duty, I usually switch my graphics over to the "on board" graphics setting.  I think the numbers from that previous thread would still be pretty close to what my larger laptop would be using now.  I might go through and do that same test tomorrow. 

@VictoriaP I totally understand the "convenience" of the portable power stations and why people would want to buy one. Not everyone likes to fool around with this stuff like I might.

And: the next generations of these devices are complete beasts.  Bigger, better. more powerful, charge faster.  I bet there is a trailer designer out there tonight planning the NexGen trailer that does not have a "battery" like we have in our trailers now:  it will be a big power center like this EcoFlow Delta.  We already see owners powering their trailers with smaller devices than this (Bluetti, etc).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083FR3762?tag=solaraddict-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1

manyman297

@PNWtabber I’m posting on a phone so it doesn’t show your signature…had to force it to show desktop view. 

Anyway, yeah I didn’t realize 320s don’t have an inverter which changes the game significantly. I’m that case I can see having one of these power stations for the convenience. If you do have the room you could probably get a 1000w inverter installed for fairly cheap. 

As far as charging laptops, I’m a graphic designer and use a 16” MacBook Pro with the high end CPU and it has a 140w charger…BUT I can get by with a 90 watt charger and be fine. I’m not pushing my machine to the limits of a video editor but I give it a pretty good workout. Assuming you have a newer laptop I’d be surprised if you’re having to constantly charge it. My guess is you won’t need any of the more massive power stations. Especially for charging duties. 

klenger

If you do decide to get a power station, you can also charge them from a 12 VDC outlet (cigarette lighter) while traveling between campsites or just sightseeing.  I'm partial to Goal Zero. The Yeti 500X has been reduced to $550 and there may be black-Friday sales (not shown yet on their website).  I doubt that you could run this model dead with a full week's use of charging electronic devices. 

https://www.goalzero.com/collections/portable-power-stations/products/goal-zero-yeti-500x-portable-power-station

AnOldUR

I'm in agreement with others that upgrading onboard battery capacity is a better way to go, but for charging things like phones and laptop, the little Ryobi power source has filled the gap for us. We carry a few 6Ah batteries and a charger to top them off with shore power or from our onboard inverter. Works great for using low draw accessories out at the picnic table. We carry other Ryobi tools (drill, pistol type compressor ...) with us so this was an easy choice.

Earlier this year, while dispersed camping in NV, a women having RV problems and a dead phone walked up to us asking for assistance getting help. I loaned her our Ryobi to take back to her campsite to make calls while charging her phone.

xdr

We did a lot of research on power stations last spring and decided on the EcoFlow River Pro. We love it for the size, the multiple outlets and the fast recharging. It has 720Wh and can power a 1200W load. It has a boost button that allows 1800W for short time such as when using an appliance or the blow dryer. This was important for us especially since we boondock a lot.  It is also lightweight. 

I just looked it up and it is on sale now. 

It sounds like I’m a salesman for the company but just a happy consumer. 🙂 It’s worth comparing to the Goal Zero and others. 

GregChris

Just curious, do any of you use a Gen/inverter. Not sure I would buy 1 for the 320s set up, but I already own a Champion 2500/1850 from my Winnie days. Camping in Prince William Forrest I had no solar available at all. I ran the Champion for 90 min each morn and eve, and it pretty much kept up with things, Plus you can use coffee maker, microwave, hair dryer, etc while the gen/inverter is running. 1 gal of gas lasted 5+ days. My only concern was gas fumes while traveling in the Highlander, but there was no problem.

AnOldUR

@GregChris, we went the minimalist route and purchased a 700/900W Baja propane inverter generator. Only used a couple of time for emergency charging during our five month trip this year. Small and only 25lbs plus it runs from the 5lb propane tank that we use for our Blackstone griddle.

VictoriaP

I will say that while EcoFlow is awesome in terms of capability—charges fast and has higher powered inverters than most—it’s also a bit annoying, because all that bumped up power comes at the cost of frequent fan noise. Even when I plug in a low power draw item, my River Mini’s fan starts kicking on within a couple of minutes, and cycles every few minutes after that. Contrast that to the GZ Yeti (I have the old 400 lithium) that I literally didn’t know had a fan at all for the longest time. Or the Jackery, where the fan powers up, but less frequently.

Reviews of all the EcoFlow models say similar things about the fan noise; they just seem to run hotter than other brands, apparently by design. Not saying it isn’t worth it—fast charging of the unit itself is a huge plus when you’re on the road, as is being able to take on larger loads—but if you’re at all sensitive to noise, it’s worth knowing about that quirk before buying.

@GregChris Generators are a pretty polarizing subject in the camping community due to the noise that impacts others outside your campsite. As such, there are restrictions in many places on their use. When traveling out West, there are also increasingly frequent bans on their use during fire season, due to the potential risk of throwing sparks, so you can’t always count on being able to use one. Plus, carrying extra fuel is something of a pain when you don’t have an open pickup truck bed or other outside place to put it.

They have their place—I used to carry the older Ryobi version of the propane fueled Baja mentioned above as an emergency method of recharging the main trailer battery, before I bought the Jackery 1500. But given the choice, I’ll pull out a battery pack every time versus using a generator. 

techietab

GregChris said:

Just curious, do any of you use a Gen/inverter. 

I do (in addition to 200 Ah of onboard LiFePO4 batteries). I use a Rainier 2200i, which is only moderately larger and louder than the much more pricey (but popular) Honda EU2200i. In my opinion, it's the best bang for buck that you can get in terms of form factor, quietness, and output - it's usually at or just under $400 on Amazon. It provides 1800w (2200w peak) and has an onboard inverter providing 2x 20 amp outlets (usual 'household' NEMA 5-20 form factor). Very happy with it - it's quite good for topping up my onboard battery array (via Victron IP22 charger) and can also run the Air8 system in my 320 S just fine. Being able to run the AC is a huge advantage that makes the extra generator-related hassles worth the effort during warmer months, in my opinion.

I also have kept a 778Wh Anker PowerHouse on board to charge phones, laptops, and run my CPAP overnight when boondocking so the 'house' batteries can be fully dedicated to the integrated onboard electrical system (which in my case is supplying a handful of atypical loads such as an LTE modem/router, a network gateway for temperature sensors,a Raspberry Pi 4 that I use to run Kodi media center software, and soon will also power a Starlink Dishy unit via 12v to 48v step-up converter plus a PoE injector). However, because I plan to do a lot more boondocking in 2023, I just placed an order for an EcoFlow Max 2000Wh portable power station, since it can recharge much faster than my Anker power station and has significantly more capacity.

GregChris

Spending a week in Big Meadows(Shenandoah) there were solar panels and Jackeries sitting around useless  everywhere in the campground, not enough light because of the trees. That's even considering portable. I had a Winnie at the time with a 100w portable solar, didn't work, my fixed panel on the 320 bd wouldn't have worked at all. In most NP's you can use a gen/inv 2 hours morning and 2 hours evening. At least east. There are decible restrictions, but all gen/inv I looked at were below that threshold. At Prince William NF. you could them between 8am and 10pm. My Champion cost $499 plus a 25% veteran discount at Lowes. $399 is less than most Solar powered Gen/inv. There is 39LB wieght and fuel to consider.

GregChris

Haven't tried to run the air8 with my Champion 2500/1850 yet, It did tell me it was plugged when I turned the gen on though.

techietab

The Air8 should run fine on the Champion 2500/1850, and probably will work fine with any of the cheaper brands with similar wattage - they all seem to use the same generic Chinese electric components and casing with only minor differences in appearance across brands. The dual fuel variants may be an exception here if running on propane, which causes the wattage output to drop significantly (as does high altitude when running on gasoline).

When I've monitored it while running the compressor, the Air 8 only puts around 10 Amps of draw on the AC circuit. Some recommend installing at 'soft start' mod for it and any other AC, but it doesn't seem to be necessary in my experience. Just be mindful not to overload the AC power feed with other high amperage loads (e.g. the microwave) running concurrently and you'll be fine.

AnOldUR

GregChris said:

... a 25% veteran discount at Lowes ...

Off topic, but I thought our Lowes discount was 10%. Got a secret to share? Has it gone up? I use the Home Depot version of this often. Got our Baja generator and Renogy inverter there with the military discount.

techietab

Not a veteran discount, but if you have the Lowes credit card, you can easily get 20% off online orders by purchasing a coupon online (I've had success with HugeOff.com - the 20% coupon is $4.99) and charging it to your Lowes card. Works on about dang near everything in inventory.

GregChris

I'm not sure about the vet discount, not a vet. My brother in law bought it for me with his discount. the receipt said $499, after discounts $399. Maybe he combined with another discount of some kind. Was also 3 years ago, maybe they changed it.

bergger

@PNWtabber I'm a big fan of the portable power stations and have two Jackery systems.   Here is my opinion on the matter.  Even though you may get a better value by upgrading your trailer batteries I think a portable system would serve you better.   Since you want to use it to charge cameras and computers and you just put a new AGM in your trailer last year.  If I were you and you can afford it I would get a 1000 watt or 1500 watt system.  The reason I did that was not only can I use it to charge small items in the trailer but I can also use it to run our portable fridge when we take it on trips.  The unit runs the fridge as we drive and the truck charges the unit as well.  Also if we have a power outage at the house we can plug in our router and modem to keep internet and plug our household fridge into it as well.   The portable systems are very versatile, much more than a static battery set up in your trailer.  I think you'll be happy with one, and I would get a larger one if you can swing it.  

manyman297

As far as charging devices, keep in mind that the old school 12v outlet that all of us have in our campers can be utilized to give you USB-C PD (power delivery) up to 100 watts…which can easily charge any modern laptop (which are typically the highest consumers when it comes to small electronics). Amazon has a million 12v outlets that will give you a combo of USB-A and USB-C ports. 

If you’re only needing charging capability I don’t feel like a power station used strictly for camping is worth the cost. But if you plan on powering a coffee maker, hair dryer…anything requiring a high draw then it might make more sense.

AnOldUR

This thread and the @pthomas745 post sent me down the rabbit hole of building a power station. Lots of YouTube videos later, I'm back here. Not sure if this is something @PNWtabber had considered, but wondering if it's worth looking into? It could be cheaper and the battery could be easily replaced or upgraded in the future.

I still have the old 80Ah deep cycle battery from before I upgraded and a 300W inverter that was used to blow up an inflatable air mattress from tent camping days. So a NOCO charger and some odds and ends would be all I'd need. Not sure I really need it, but could make a good winter project?