3 way fridge or 12V only fridge in T@B

qdup

I have been looking at a couple T@B's for sale and am wondering which fidge is recommended by owners who have actually had experience with both.  A three way or a 12V compressor fridge. Thank you.

jkjenn

qdup said:

I have been looking at a couple T@B's for sale and am wondering which fidge is recommended by owners who have actually had experience with both.  A three way or a 12V compressor fridge. Thank you.

Are you hoping to boondock frequently or for long periods of time? I am not sure you will find many who have had both because they are sort of pricey.

Nomad

Good point ST_Bob. Is the 3-Way an option?
If you're going to boondock (or dry camp) a lot, the 3-way is a must I would think. Unless you have a big battery bank matched up with solar or a generator.

RZRBUG

What Jenn said about boondocking.  I have found that the 12V is a pretty heavy drain on the battery.  I have never had the 3-way.  I recently replaced my Norcold 12V only with an Engel 12V/120, but I have not had a chance to use it yet.  Specs say that it is more energy efficient, but we'll see.

Nomad

Nice to know. - Any idea how much juice the 3-way running on propane would take - the cooling fan and exhaust fan, etc - how it would compare with the 2-way for boondocking?

jkjenn

PXLated said:

Nice to know. - Any idea how much juice the 3-way running on propane would take - the cooling fan and exhaust fan, etc - how it would compare with the 2-way for boondocking?

What a silly question....

Keltdubh

We were previously owners of a Silver Shadow that had the 12 volt fridge.  The 3-way fridge of the T@B was one of the factors that influenced our decision to upsize to a T@B.  The 12-volt such as the one that comes standard in the CS Model T@B did not seem very efficient to us.  The compressor would kick on constantly while boondocking when temps climbed above 70.  I have not been able to find the documentation, but I do remember reading somewhere that the 12-volt fridge is only designed to cool about 30 degrees below ambient temperature.  That would mean that at temps in the 90's, your food would be stored at 60 degrees.  We never tested that theory at temps that high.  After having it seriously deplete our battery on two trips, we started using the Norcold NRF-60 that we use to take car camping with us and used the other just to hold canned goods.  I do not know the amps on the chest style NRF-45 and NRF-60, but after three days of camping with temps in the 80's during the day and running the ceiling fan through most of the night, we would still leave camp on the 4th day with plenty of juice in the battery.

We just purchased our T@B with the 3-way fridge in November, so we have only used the fridge during the Winter months and it's draw on the battery is quite minimal while on propane as demonstrated by Jenn's chart above.  (By the way Jenn, does that include when running the exhaust fan?)  The new model T@B's have an exhaust fan on the 3-way fridge that exhaust the heat that is created when running the fridge on propane to the outside.  Since we were Winter camping when we used ours, we did not run the exhaust fan, so we don't know how much impact that may have on the battery.  (By the way, that heat is a bonus while Winter camping.) 

Bottom line for us...  Since we like to boondock a lot, the 3-way seemed to be the best option for us.

jkjenn

Keltdubh said:

 (By the way Jenn, does that include when running the exhaust fan?)  

It does not as I have not installed it yet. I am guessing the fan is a very low draw. I hope to install it this year and will test the draw.

Verna

The 3-way fridge is why I have an S model instead of the CS-S. I wanted the extra storage of the CS, but I knew I wanted to boondock a lot during my snow bird trips to AZ. So, I am very happy with the 3-way fridge, knowing I can use it very efficiently pn propane as needed.

 

RZRBUG

Keltdubh said:

...The 12-volt such as the one that comes standard in the CS Model T@B did not seem very efficient to us.  The compressor would kick on constantly while boondocking when temps climbed above 70...

My experience with the 12V more closely matched this scenario.  I even had it deplete my 100ah battery to the point my CO2 alarm started beeping WHILE I HAD THE 7-PIN PLUGGED IN AND DRIVING DOWN THE HIGHWAY.  According to the specs, the Norcold will draw 3.6 amps while running, and in my experience, it runs a lot.

jkjenn

Verna said:

The 3-way fridge is why I have an S model instead of the CS-S. I wanted the extra storage of the CS, but I knew I wanted to boondock a lot during my snow bird trips to AZ. So, I am very happy with the 3-way fridge, knowing I can use it very efficiently pn propane as needed.

 

Some tried to talk me out of the 3 way. I am glad I gave it a shot. It's fantastic. It's remarkable how efficient it is.

Verna

Agreed, Jenn. I love it!

jkjenn

If I were looking at primarily running the fridge on 12v, I'd probably only be considering the ARB fridges.

As previously mentioned, the Norcold 3 way uses very little power on LP. If you are content to rely on LP when boo docking, you will find it quite efficient. I wrote up a lessons learned post, because having never used an RV fridge before, I was frustrated by it and the dealer and manual instructions were quite poor. As a matter of fact, the tech at my dealer had insisted it was broken because he didn't know how to light it. I have found that am I have not been alone in not getting the right information for using the fridge.

Verna

I use my ARB as much for a freezer as I use it for a fridge. It's in the back seat of my truck.

If it were possible to put it in the T@B, I would take it any day over the fridge. A miser on 12 volt usage, quiet compressor. It's the best!

Keltdubh

ST_Bob said:

On the T@G teardrops they use a 12 volt chest-type refrigerator on a slide-out tray in the rear kitchen instead of the vertical door type fridge. From what I've read, these are more efficient and seldom cause run-down batteries for short stays.

Personally, on my (as yet to be ordered) CS-S I'd prefer the 12 volt only chest-type refrigerator just for that reason.  They're also larger capacity than the conventional swinging-door type refrigerators.

Opinions?

Bob, this fridge is the NRF-45 that I mention above.  While I do not have exact figures for AMP draw, I would say that it is probably comparable to an ARB.  Before getting a Teardrop, we were gifted an NRF-60 which is it's bigger brother.  We use to leave it plugged up in the back of the truck while car camping over a three day weekend and never suffered any issues with a dead battery when leaving.  If I had to pick between this Model and the black upright model that is standard in a CS, I would pick this one hands down.

However, much like Verna and Jenn, we love the efficiency of the 3-way.

Sharon_is_SAM

Although still a CSS T@b wanna-be, we plan to boondock and really want a more efficient frig in the form of a chest and bigger than a 30 quart model sold at the TDS.  ARB vs Norcold chest.  Anybody know if PVT will work around an ARB model?  I like the way the Norcold chest opens like a standard cooler as opposed to the ARB opening end to end.  But, I think the ARB is more efficient.  

wizard1880

The 12v fridge in the CS models is capable of freezing your foods, even when it's 100f outside.  It's amazingly powerful, don't ask me how I know.

Nomad

Was talking to a van camper that's been full-time for 5years and he told me the ARB is just a brand name and most of those types are all made by the same manufacturer. ARB is just the most recognized and most expensive. Anyone else have any knowledge on that?

jkjenn

PXLated said:

Was talking to a van camper that's been full-time for 5years and he told me the ARB is just a brand name and most of those types are all made by the same manufacturer. ARB is just the most recognized and most expensive. Anyone else have any knowledge on that?

The overland folks prefer the ARB because of the drain plug, less electrical noise interference, digital temperature readouts. I know you can get a rebadged Engel but never heard of a rebadged ARB. Fridges are definitely not all the same.

RZRBUG

I know that Norcold and Engel are both designed by Sawafuji Electric Co. of Japan and both are manufactured by a subsidiary in Thailand.  It is also my understanding that ARB was designed by a company in Australia and originally manfactured to their specs by the Engel division of Sawafuji.  ARB later decided, for what reason I don't know, to go with another company to manufacture their firdge/freezers, but I don't know what that company is.

Verna

ARB is manufactured by ARB. They are not rebadged. Someone is trying to start a nasty rumor.

I watched a Dometic in 30* weather. My ARB was in my truck , humming along as usual. The Dometic was freezing everything in it. It could not keep its interior temps above freezing and was freezing rather than keeping the food above freezing, as the setting was set for 34*.  Lots of difference in quality.

I have not been able to compare a chest Norcold with the chest ARB with personal observation. 
But, yes, my Norcold 3-way will freeze some of the contents. 

Nomad

Not sure about that Verna - This guy built his own camper van and was pretty knowledgable. Maybe things with ARB changed. That Sawafuji name sounds like what he rattled off.

mash2

Unit to unit documentation is hard to come by:

ARB documents indicate .7 to 2.3 Amps Per Hour power usage.
Engel documents state 0.7 - 2.5 Amps per hour power usage for both horizonal and traditional fridge format.
Norcold documents tate 2.4 for horizontal cooler type and  3.6-5.4 for traditional fridge format.

Seems for traditional frig with vertical door, the engel beats the Norcold
For horizontal door (like icebox), the ARB is slightly more efficient than the others, but most indicate that is is more efficient than the others in practice.


As everyone will makes great pains to point out.... your mileage may vary.  

If I'm not mistaken, the old DM's used engel manufactured Norcold back then (the technical data was provided by Engel on usage).  

qdup

Great info. I am glad I asked this question. Thanks to everyone that chimed in with their opinions and first hand knowledge. I do not know which 12V fridge is in the T@B Q model I am interested in. Its a 2008 model. 

qdup

It looks to be an Engel, by the looks of it. 

wizard1880

Hi guys, sorry to wake an old thread.   I thought I’d use this thread instead of creating a new one.

After some experience and research into the 12v compressor-based fridge found in the CS models, I'd like to present some findings, experience and other (hopefully useful) tidbits to hopefully shed light onto both sides of the equation to improve the credibility of the lowly CS.

Please note that a lot of this anecdotal.  Other factors such as environmental differences (and even manufacturing tolerances!) may produce different findings.

Here goes:

* The model used in the CS is the Norcold NR740BB (BB = black on black), offering 1.7 cu/ft.

* This was surprising -- It houses the very same DanFoss BD35 compressor found in the venerable ARB 37QT, 50QT and 63QT models (see here for ARB, and here for Norcold) !!!

* The fridge has no surge start requirements -- when it turns on, it starts in the 1-2 Amp range, then works up to 3-5 Amp over the next 3-5 seconds, and sustains there.  (Sustained amps depend on how hard it's working.  High outdoor temps and it will hover near 5A)

* In 50-60 outdoor temperature ranges during the day/night, the fridge seems to run <50% of the time, taking roughly 2 AH in this scenario.  We keep our fridge stuffed (and not by choice -- it's not very big!)

* Last summer on a hot trip with outdoor temperatures in the upper 90's and no shade, I didn't take any power measurements but the temperature of the fridge interior was kept consistently cold, and the compressor ran noticeably more (maybe 75% of the time?).  I'm certain this would affect runtime.  More testing needed.

* I use temp setting 2 usually (of 5).  This keeps the freezer section frozen, and the rest in the low 40s.  If I turn it to 5, the entire fridge becomes a freezer.  Outdoor temperatures have little to no effect on this.

* The fridge is noticeable when sleeping.  It's certainly louder than the Alde (except in propane HIGH mode) but not enough to disturb our sleep.

* The DC draw is low enough that one can keep the fridge running at all times travelling when connected to a car, without much worry for shopping stopovers, ferry trips, etc.  It would take >12 hours of runtime on the car battery alone before draining it too low to start the car--And this is if your T@b's battery is already dead!

* With our 2 golf cart battery setup and 230 AH power, we camped for 2 nights without any energy conservation at all.   We were left with a 60% charge according to the TriMetric. (~12.3v) on the morning after the second night.

* With the original group 24 battery provided by the dealer, we could barely survive overnight (50% left by the morning).

* Boon-docking with the 12v fridge is very possible, but with caveats.  It seems like a MUST for a larger battery bank first and foremost.  Solar power is recommended or you may find yourself running the generator every other day.  I suppose if you had a bottomless pocketbook you could invest in a lithium iron battery system (say 300AH or so) and you'd be set for almost a week!

When we first decided on the 2014 CS model, I had no clue what type of fridge our T@b came with, as the brochures at the time were unclear.  I was disappointed when I discovered the CS models were limited to 12v operation only, AFTER delivery of course.

But after 2 years of experience now I have confidence in it and look forward to some more extended outings.

I hope this helps any of you if you're on the fence about which T@b model to buy.

irvingj

And perhaps I can add a bit of info:

The Danfoss BD35 compressor is a motor-driven, reciprocating piston hermetic compressor, very similar in design to any other refrigeration compressor, but with outstanding efficiency.

Engel-type refrigerators use what's called a "swing compressor," which has no motor; the piston is free-floating within the essentially closed-on-both-ends cylinder, with no motor and no connecting rod. The piston is driven by an electric solenoid (think "the Flipper" on a pinball machine) to pull it in one direction, and a precisely matched rebound spring on the other end of the cylinder.

The solenoid yanks it down, the rebound spring bounces it back up, and the process repeats, all switched & controlled electronically. When the compressor first starts up it's a bit "slow," but as pressures build & equalize, the piston cycle speeds up until it reaches its design harmonic peak.

As a result, swing-compressor fridges use even less electricity than the already-efficient motor-driven ones. An extremely clever design, but quite expensive.

As far as boondocking with 12VDC compressor fridges vs. propane fridges: a year before we sold our T@B, we bought a Roadtrek SS Agile RV, on a short wheelbase Sprinter chassis. It came equipped with a Dometic 12V/120V compressor (Danfoss?) refrigerator. Incidentally, it's actually more efficient on 12VDC than on 120VAC.

On our first 11,000-mile, two-month trip we ran the fridge 24/7, and used the rooftop fan to keep cool at night. The next morning, we still had plenty of juice left…. BUT, and this is a pretty big "but," we also had 300 watts of solar on the roof and four honkin' 6-volt batteries in a series/parallel set-up.

SO, if you have PLENTY of battery storage AND a means to keep them charged up (i.e., solar), the compressor fridge works great.

If I didn't have that, however, I'd be using propane for sure; the Nor-Cold in our T@B worked very well, indeed.

jkjenn

Verna said:

I use my ARB as much for a freezer as I use it for a fridge. It's in the back seat of my truck.

If it were possible to put it in the T@B, I would take it any day over the fridge. A miser on 12 volt usage, quiet compressor. It's the best!

@Verna if your 3 way died today, would you replace it ($1500) or just remove it and install your ARB in that spot? Asking for a friend...of course.

incidentalmusic

wizard1880 said:

Hi guys, sorry to wake an old thread.   I thought I’d use this thread instead of creating a new one.

After some experience and research into the 12v compressor-based fridge found in the CS models, I'd like to present some findings, experience and other (hopefully useful) tidbits to hopefully shed light onto both sides of the equation to improve the credibility of the lowly CS.

Please note that a lot of this anecdotal.  Other factors such as environmental differences (and even manufacturing tolerances!) may produce different findings.

Here goes:

* The model used in the CS is the Norcold NR740BB (BB = black on black), offering 1.7 cu/ft.

* This was surprising -- It houses the very same DanFoss BD35 compressor found in the venerable ARB 37QT, 50QT and 63QT models (see here for ARB, and here for Norcold) !!!

* The fridge has no surge start requirements -- when it turns on, it starts in the 1-2 Amp range, then works up to 3-5 Amp over the next 3-5 seconds, and sustains there.  (Sustained amps depend on how hard it's working.  High outdoor temps and it will hover near 5A)

* In 50-60 outdoor temperature ranges during the day/night, the fridge seems to run <50% of the time, taking roughly 2 AH in this scenario.  We keep our fridge stuffed (and not by choice -- it's not very big!)

* Last summer on a hot trip with outdoor temperatures in the upper 90's and no shade, I didn't take any power measurements but the temperature of the fridge interior was kept consistently cold, and the compressor ran noticeably more (maybe 75% of the time?).  I'm certain this would affect runtime.  More testing needed.

* I use temp setting 2 usually (of 5).  This keeps the freezer section frozen, and the rest in the low 40s.  If I turn it to 5, the entire fridge becomes a freezer.  Outdoor temperatures have little to no effect on this.

* The fridge is noticeable when sleeping.  It's certainly louder than the Alde (except in propane HIGH mode) but not enough to disturb our sleep.

* The DC draw is low enough that one can keep the fridge running at all times travelling when connected to a car, without much worry for shopping stopovers, ferry trips, etc.  It would take >12 hours of runtime on the car battery alone before draining it too low to start the car--And this is if your T@b's battery is already dead!

* With our 2 golf cart battery setup and 230 AH power, we camped for 2 nights without any energy conservation at all.   We were left with a 60% charge according to the TriMetric. (~12.3v) on the morning after the second night.

* With the original group 24 battery provided by the dealer, we could barely survive overnight (50% left by the morning).

* Boon-docking with the 12v fridge is very possible, but with caveats.  It seems like a MUST for a larger battery bank first and foremost.  Solar power is recommended or you may find yourself running the generator every other day.  I suppose if you had a bottomless pocketbook you could invest in a lithium iron battery system (say 300AH or so) and you'd be set for almost a week!

When we first decided on the 2014 CS model, I had no clue what type of fridge our T@b came with, as the brochures at the time were unclear.  I was disappointed when I discovered the CS models were limited to 12v operation only, AFTER delivery of course.

But after 2 years of experience now I have confidence in it and look forward to some more extended outings.

I hope this helps any of you if you're on the fence about which T@b model to buy.

This post was SUPER helpful, thank you! We have the exact same setup, minus the golf cart battery upgrade which is now imminent. I would also like to add my newbie moment of not turning the fridge on until departing. It definitely helps to plug in the trailer and run off shore power to cool the fridge down 4-5 hours before you hit the road. I'm sure this is obvious to most folks, but as new camper peeps we learned the hard way. 

Does anyone know if there is a 3-way upgrade to the NR740BB? I realize there will be plumbing and mild carpentry involved. 

Denny16

Not to mention, cutting two large holes in the side of the TaB.  This alone would stop me from doing this.
cheers

Dutch061

After owning 4 RV's, 3 of them with absorption refrigerators (1 was a 2017 TAB 320 S) and our current 2020 400 BDL with a 12 volt compressor refrigerator I can say this without hesitation. "I will never own another RV with an absorption refrigerator", there is simply no comparison to operation, efficiency (cold things stay cold), temperature doesn't' fluctuate with ambient temperature (no more frozen or warm things), temperature doesn't fluctuate while moving (no more wondering if the food is safe to eat after the temperature gets in the upper 50's). No hassles to light, no waiting for 24 hours to cool down; you simply set it and forget it.

It is like comparing a black and white TV to a current HD Color TV.

Take it for what it's worth.