Phantom Drain

JimEngel

"JimEngal's measurements are considerably higher, possibly reflecting additional drain from new electronics added to more recent model years."
Scott, my current draw measurement was with the Alde pump running even though the Propane and 120 volt power were  both off.
This is an unusual situation, but can occur as I indicated.

ScottG

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. In this case, your numbers actually coincide with jkjenn's as her spreadsheet indicates another 0.6A draw when the Alde is on the heat setting (i.e., with the circulator pump running).

Apparently a lack of power or fuel to the Alde's heaters does not automatically shut the entire system down. Good to know. 

BrianZ

I made some measurements of our background power usage today by removing each DC fuse from the converter panel, one by one, and connecting my multimeter alligator clip leads to the fuse contacts with current mode selected on the meter.
Here are my results..

My results appear to confirm @jkjenn's results, at around 200+ milliamps (0.2A), or around 5 Amp-Hours per day.
What surprised me was that the two circuits with the largest currents (#4 & #5) were not the ones I would have expected.  Granted, the LP detector is always active on circuit #4, but no display active on the SeeLevel; and nothing appears to be running on circuit #5 - the biggest user of all!  

I got started on this little exercise, because I had already put a kill switch on the television power cord, and planning to add one to the radio.  We do have an electronic leveler device plugged into USB, but it uses very little in sleep mode, and I  found an unused USB phone charger plugged in with a blue LED using about 12mA, which could have been unplugged.

In any case, the total power use is equivalent to about 5 Amp-Hours per day, not an insignificant amount.  Compared to our daily dry camping usage documented last fall of about 20AH per day, that would represent about 25%, more than I would have expected.

So, by adding on/off switches to TV & radio, and unplugging unneeded USB devices, I figure we can save about 20% of our "phantom" power drain from background devices that are always on.  Unfortunately, 20% of 25% is only about a 5% reduction of usage while camping, but still 20% of background, so every little bit helps.

PS:  My circuit #5 measurement also appears to confirm @JimEngel's  Alde measurement.  Maybe we should be looking at installing a kill switch for that (and maybe the SeeLevel too, but not sure what its resting usage is).  Do we really need to have glycol circulating all the time?

irvingj

Great job, Brian: good, useful info in an easy-to-read format!

Our older DM T@B (R.I.P.) didn't have a lot of the "new" stuff, but you're right -- I found that that LP gas detector could kill my battery in only 3 days or so... before I put in a kill switch. Not a draw to be overlooked.

And you're absolutely right about phantom draw on "instant-on" (remember vacuum tubes??) devices. They're sneaky!

ChanW

@BrianZ, do you have the digital Alde panel? I believe the Alde analog controller panel uses zero power when switched off. 

The glycol circulator pump operates when it's on, but only in 'cabin heat' mode, of course.

klenger

If you are really concerned about phantom power use, you could hot wire the ceiling light to the battery and then turn the battery switch off and your phantom power use would be essentially zero. I don't worry about it because my 200 watt solar setup easily makes up for any phantom loads. 

ScottG

Good info, @BrianZ, and good points by others. I'm curious to try the same thing on my 2015, which lacks the SeeLevel and digital Alde panel, and has had the television removed.

Of course, I said that back in January of 2018, too...  :-)

BrianZ

@ChanW, yes, we have the digital Alde display/control panel.  I have noticed that it has its own data/power cable connecting to the Alde, and the Alde has a separate 12V supply cable coming from the converter (in addition to the AC power).  Both are connected where the green fuse holders are located on top under the 3010 model's plastic cover.

Although I am not worried about excessive phantom power usage, I am always curious to learn more about how things work and possibly question whether anything can be improved.  I appreciate what others have shared, and I may look further into whether I can easily determine the contribution of any specific components of a circuit's power consumption.  If so, I'll share it, and look forward to hearing what others may find.

BrianZ

After further DC circuit testing, here's my revised measurements of each sub-circuit's "phantom" amperage..

For circuit #4, I simply removed the LP detector's inline fuse under the seat & remeasured to get the SeeLevel's "phamperage".  I verified it by then removing our SeeLevel's inline 7.5A fuse to measure the LP detector's current (I had added the 7.5A fuse plus a relay switch long ago inside the pump cabinet, as recommended by pump & SeeLevel manufacturers, so the pump could continue using a 10A fuse in the converter panel).

For the Alde on circuit #5, I could isolate the usage locations by removing the various lines plugged in under the Alde's top panel, one at a time, and retesting with fuse removed..
Removed 12V line = 0 mA (expected & confirms all circuit #5 "phamperage" is in the Alde)
Removed 12V Pump line = 82mA (not pump)
Removed 12V Display line = 50mA (Alde electronics other than the display)
Conclusion: 82 minus 50 = 32mA (Display)
Interesting that the display itself uses 32mA even when turned off.

Also, not shown, when I pushed the SeeLevel display buttons to see readings for
 Battery/Fresh/Gray/Black tanks, I  got:
 75mA/68mA/67mA/67mA
instead of 57mA for circuit #4, but this is not "phamperage", just regular usage.  It's not very much at all, about 10-20mA, so fairly low cost to push those buttons.

BrianZ

Afterthoughts:
Now I'm wondering if I should install a kill switch on the Alde's 12V line, in order to eliminate the single largest source of background power drain.  One could unplug that connector on top of the Alde, but a switch would be way more convenient & avoid damage to the connector.  Just judging from the wire gauge used, it does not appear to use very high amperage.

Does anyone know of any reason why the Alde would need to keep its electronics, including the display, energized all the time, even when not in use?  That usage alone is equivalent to what our 50-qt ARB frig/freezer uses to maintain its low temps after the initial cooldown.
(Edit: Sorry, I should have said it's equivalent to one tenth of what our ARB fridge uses, or about 2 AH per day)

By switching off power to tv, radio, & Alde, that would eliminate 125mA of the 208mA of background power drain, or 60%, when not using the Alde.

ChanW

It's interesting that Alde would not have addressed this power drain detail in their engineering. Maybe they think their majority of users is plugged into shore power.

The only reason I would not do it is if they don't keep their controller panel settings in non-volatile RAM, and it loses your settings when it loses its 12V supply.

Is that the case?

BrianZ said:

Afterthoughts:
Now I'm wondering if I should install a kill switch on the Alde's 12V line, in order to eliminate the single largest source of background power drain.  One could unplug that connector on top of the Alde, but a switch would be way more convenient & avoid damage to the connector.  Just judging from the wire gauge used, it does not appear to use very high amperage.

Does anyone know of any reason why the Alde would need to keep its electronics, including the display, energized all the time, even when not in use?  That usage alone is equivalent to what our 50-qt ARB frig/freezer uses to maintain its low temps after the initial cooldown.

By switching off power to tv, radio, & Alde, that would eliminate 125mA of the 208mA of background power drain, or 60%, when not using the Alde.

BrianZ

Good question, @ChanW.
I don't know, & offhand can't think of what I would need to save.  I seem to recall that when we first got our T@B, I had to go deep into the settings menus to set the screen to timeout or allow to be turned off or something.  But, we've certainly had the trailer unplugged with battery switch off at times, and I don't recall noticing any adverse effects on the display or its settings. 
I suppose we could test for this by changing a setting & turning everything off.

ChanW

Ok, so now I'm curious if our Alde with the analog control panel also draws phantom power when the control panel's off... I'll have to look into it! (Look what you've done....) 

ScottG

Yeah, @ChanW--that's what I said! Feel free to beat me to it and report what you find.  ;-)

BrianZ

Ok, I  did it - I  added kill switches to both the Jensen audio & Alde 12V power lines to save 125 mA of background power usage (combined with TV switch added previously), or 3AH per day of our previous 5AH per day usage.  So now we would only be using about 2AH per day for background.electronics..

Above is the 12V Alde line kill switch next to the converter.
I used these switches..
AutoEC 3pc 12V 20A Car Truck Round Rocker Toggle LED Switch Blue Light SPST On-off Control https://www.amazon.com/dp/B012IJ35VQ
The switches have 3 terminals, where the extra terminal is for connecting to ground if you want to light its LED when the switch is on.
I mounted the Alde switch next to the converter, because that's where the wires were closest, and the rear wall was too thick with 3 layers of plywood.  I verified that the amperage reading at the fuse terminals was zero with the switch off.

One thing I encountered that seemed odd was that after I removed the fuse to the respective DC circuit (#2 for radio & #5 for Alde), with battery switch off, I was still getting 12.15V on my multimeter at the power lines feeding the device. Does this make sense?  Converter was still powered by AC hookup.

Bayliss

@BrianZ, nice work.

I was thinking about the same question (as you have) recently while figuring out which DC fuses control certain items in my 320S (nüCamp mislabeled how they are assigned..........I recently posted a follow-up to that.)

While going through the process of checking the AC circuit breakers, with the 12V battery disconnected, I still had power to everything, including those items that require 12V.  Therefore, if I understand what you are asking/describing, I believe the answer is that the converter is doing what it is designed to do (i.e., convert 110V AC to 12V DC.)  Therefore, I am guessing that power bypasses your 12V cut-off switch and is still sending 12V power to the Alde??

By the way, do you have any photos of the wiring where you connected the Alde kill switch?  I am not clear why the switch is needed.  I have kill switches for the Jensen TV and Stereo, but does the Alde have some parasitic drain even if it is turned off at the Alde panel?

ScottG

@BrianZ, if I understand you correctly, no, that doesn't make sense. Fuses protect wires, so all power supply--whether from the battery or the converter--should pass through the fuse.

My first thought is that the fuses might be mis-labelled (a not uncommon issue) but I'd venture a guess you have checked and double-checked that already.

There's gotta' be some other explanation, but it eludes me...

BrianZ

@Bayliss, our Alde still draws 82 milliamps through it's 12V line when turned off at display panel (see last chart I posted above).  With the new switch turned on, current measured at the fuse contacts with fuse removed is now 91mA (includes powering the LED in the switch), but more importantly with switch off, it is now zero current, so no power is going to the Alde with the new switch off.  It's the wires going to the switch that still have voltage.
Sorry, forgot to photograph switch wiring, but will do that today & post photos.

About the 12.15V voltage reading - it was taken at the power lines going to the switch from converter; but the fuse on that 12V circuit was removed, so shouldn't it be zero?   Measuring current showed zero Amps at the same fuse contacts with switch off.  I observed the same thing on the Jensen circuit - power lines at switch showed 12.15V with the 12V 15A fuse removed from the converter.
Will check again to make sure I didn't overlook something.  From what I can tell, my switch is doing its job to prevent current flow when off.

sqrpeg

Regarding the 12.15V reading when the fuse is removed - could it be residual voltage coming from a capacitor or other component in the device (or maybe in the LED switch itself)? What voltage do you see at that same spot when the fuse is inserted?

Bayliss

@BrianZ, thank you for the additional info.  I am going to have to really think about this.  Unfortunately, I have just started a 2 month trip and our bed is made, so I don't want to have to take the bed apart to take a look at my wiring.  I also read @ScottG's post, but it still seems to me that if you pull the fuse (break the circuit), but are still getting a reading on your multimeter, it would seem that the AC power is not going through the same lines connected to the DC fuses.  (To be honest, I don't know what the AC Alde circuit controls as compared to the DC fused circuit.......can you or @ScottG explain that for me?)

However, I definitely agree with @ScottG's point about the fuses possibly being mislabeled.  I have reviewed your previous posts with photos of your fuse panel labeling and yours is different than mine (a 2019 320S), but I also saw that @dsfdogs has similar labeling as mine, but still different.  I wrote to Creed at nüCamp back in May and all he did was confirm that mine was mislabeled.  Last week, I checked all the circuits and figured out the correct labeling.  I wrote to Creed again last Friday to see if my converter is properly wired (I have serious questions about my AC circuit breakers as well), but I have not heard back.

Here is how my DC fuses are arranged:

            DC Circuit #1    Alde; Bath, Kitchen & Reading Lights    7.5A

            DC Circuit #2    TV/Radio                                              15A

            DC Circuit #3    USB/12V Sockets                                  15A

            DC Circuit #4    Ceiling & Porch Lights; Refrigerator       20A

            DC Circuit #5    A/C & Ceiling Fans; Pump; Tanks; LPG   7.5A

            DC Circuit #6    Battery Charger                                      30A

            DC Circuit #7    Reverse Polarity Protection                     40A

ScottG

@Bayless, the 120V AC Alde circuit provides power to the two electric heating elements, as well as to the circulator (which can also run on 12V DC). All of the Alde's electronic controls are 12V DC regardless of whether you are hooked to shore power or not.

@BrianZ's observation remains a mystery for the time being. I can see no reason why power from the converter would bypass the 12V fuses in the distribution panel. The entire converter is protected by a 15A AC circuit breaker, but whether or not that protection extends to the branch circuits on the other (12V) side of the converter is beyond my pay grade.

sqrpeg

If the voltage was still somehow coming from the converter, I would expect it to be ~13.6V not 12.15V - which is why I wanted to compare readings from the same spot with the fuse in place.

ScottG

Good point, @sqrpeg. The mystery deepens...

BrianZ

Update on the wiring of my two switches pictured above..

This shows the 12V green circuit #5 line that goes from the converter to the Alde, which I cut the positive (green) line, added a spade connector & plugged into the switch power terminal.  Added a piece of red 16G wire to the short end going to Alde & connected to load terminal (doesn't really matter which for these two).  I used one of these easy tap splices..
3M(TM) Scotchlok(TM) Electrical IDC Connector 804-BOX, Run and Tap, Blue, 18-16 AWG solid/stranded, 14 AWG stranded, 25ct - 80000209652 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0035R7TKO
..to connect the dark green ground wire to the white ground wire and from there to the brass-colored ground terminal.

Here's the wiring for the Jensen switch..

Circled is the red circuit #2 12V power line & connections going to switch & Jensen radio, while the green arrows show new parts added.  These connections were done in a similar manner to those for the Alde line above, using the same types of crimped butt connector & easy tap splice connector for ground.  Again, the extra ground connection is only needed to make the switch LED light up when turned on.

I also double-checked my unexpected voltage & current measurements as previously described, with the same results.  I also tried that measurement a different way, which I'd be curious to know if others can reproduce..
I simply removed the 12V fuse for the Alde circuit, then put voltmeter positive probe on the left side of fuse terminal, and neg test probe on the 12V gound bar under seat (with all the white wires).  I got 13.6V.  Then I moved the positive meter probe to the right side of the empty fuse terminal, where I got 12.15V.  Not sure yet what this proves, but I get similar results.

Bayliss

Thank you, @ScottG and @BrianZ.  Looking forward to hearing how this ends up.

BrianZ

To explain my voltage readings, here's what I believe is happening..
At one fuse contact I saw 13.65V and at the other 12.15V.  This is a difference of 1.5V, which also happens to be the voltage drop typically seen across a red LED, and we know that when fuses are removed (or when a fuse blows), the converter's red LED lights up.  However, LEDs typically pass only very small currents (like maybe 10-20 mA), which would effectively shut off the circuit to any significant current, while still showing the remaining voltage of 12.15V on the other fuse terminal.

Further, this also explains why, when I had the fuse removed, the red LED on the converter would only light up when my added kill switch was on, allowing the tiny current to flow.  Also, when I had discovered there was 12V still on the lines I was working on after having removed the fuse, I became concerned the line was not dead; however, the limited amperage is too small to be a real safety concern.

sqrpeg

I pulled the fuses from circuits 1-56 and tested each one per @BrianZ's request. Readings ranged from 1.53V - 12.18V depending on the circuit. Then I found this on a WFCO FAQ page:

Why do I have voltage on the DC fuse board output terminals even though the fuse is not in place?
This is normal. There is only voltage present- no amperage. The voltage you are seeing is the voltage needed by the monitoring circuit that turns the red LED ON when a fuse is blown.

So it does stem from the monitoring LEDs on the DC board. The varying readings I see are probably due to the varying loads on each circuit. Regardless, the bottom line is that the voltage is harmless due to low amperage.

BrianZ

Thank you, @sqrpeg, for filling the sqr holes in our converter knowledge with that confirmation from the manufacturer.  Good to know that mystery is indeed solved.
PS: There was, in fact, no other load than the LED on the Alde circuit I was testing.

Bayliss

Thanks as well, @sqrpeg.  Now we know.  One of my red LED lights on the fuse panel is not working when the fuse is pulled.  Has anybody had that occur, or is it an easy fix?  I just started a two-month trip, so I plan to contact WFCO when I am back home (I will check their web site as well), but thought I would check here first.  Thanks.

BrianZ

@Bayliss, try turning on an appliance on that circuit before pulling the fuse & see if it comes on.  My kill switch on the Alde causes the same behavior when I pull the fuse.  The fuse panel red LED needs current flowing through the circuit to light up, so if everything on the circuit is turned off, it won't light.