Jeep TJ 2 door for towing. Yeah or neah?

VictoriaP

4ncar said:

Tongue weight is usually 10% of Max towing weight. Might want to check your stats...

True, but not always, especially on smaller tow vehicles. I think the manufacturers assume we’ll be pulling small boats and jet skis and utility trailers, which tend have light tongue weights when towing.

@andyboy Assuming that’s correct (definitely an assumption, since everything I’ve seen indicates a 2000 lb limit on your model), have you personally weighed the tongue on yours when packed to camp? I saw your other pics; between having a Boondock model, the BD tire on the front, and the four filled bins on the platform, I would be very concerned that you are significantly over that 200 lb limit.

It’s extremely tough to stay below 200 with a recent model 320, and especially a Boondock. I tried it for a year, weighing mine regularly, and I had to have way less on the tongue than you do to make that happen.

MASH

I used to tow with Forrester (max weight 2,700 as I recall).  Found myself on steep road slope that didn't have sufficient capacity to make up hill.  Very dicey situation on the side of a mountain with no way up and no way down.  Definitely led me to replace the vehicle.  Would never tow again unless nearly twice stated capacity. I had no problems towing before I reached the situation where I couldn't.....  for whatever that is worth to you.

Denny16

The newer and larger Wranglers with a minimum 3500 lbs towing capacity should be fine for a TaB320.   That said, with any Wrangler you are not going to be going down highways at 70-80mph whilst towing, either.

Cheers

VictoriaP

Denny16 said:

The newer and larger Wranglers with a minimum 3500 lbs towing capacity should be fine for a TaB320.   Thst said, you are not going to be going down highways at 70-80mph either.

Cheers

Problem is, @andyboy has a 2 door Rubicon from 2015, and it appears that only the only the 4 door models that year were rated for 3500 pounds. The rest are 2000.

Denny16

Thanks, I was referring to new Wranglers, not the 2015, and you are correct, the 2015-2018 2-door Rubicon only has a 2K towing capacity,  again, I would not use it to tow anything larger than a TaG.  You need the 4-door newer model Wranglers from 2018 on to get a good solid 3500 lbs towing capacity (Older JKU models also), and the longer wheelbase of the U model 4-door.  That said, subtracting 250-300lbs of tongue weight from a new Wrangler 4-door leaves only 500-600 lbs of,cargo, which includes any passengers.  So not a great tow vehicle for,heavier trailers.

Towing a large trailer like the TaB 320, with the small 2-door Wrangler, is an accident waiting to happen...   

4ncar

Denny16 said:

Thanks, I was referring to new Wranglers, not the 2015, and you are correct, the 2015-2018 2-door Rubicon only has a 2K towing capacity,  again, I would not use it to tow anything larger than a TaG.  You need the 4-door newer model Wranglers from 2018 on to get a good solid 3500 lbs towing capacity, and the longer wheelbase of the 4-door.  Towing a large trailer like the TaB 320, with the small 2-door Wrangler, is an accident waiting to happen...   

My ‘08 & ‘09 JKU rubicons were both rated 3500/350. @VictoriaP, and with my previous ownership is why I suggested the OP check his stats.

That said, I wasn’t happy with the performance nor the fuel economy. 

VictoriaP

Well. We always tell people to check their Owner’s Manual, so I did. Here’s the link to the 2015 Jeep Wrangler manual:
https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/servicemanuals/jeep/2015-wrangler.pdf

Screen cap (may be a bit fuzzy as it’s been resized):

The relevant section starts on page 540 and continues on 541. There were three listings for the 2 door Rubicon. ALL THREE have a 2,000 pound towing limit, and 200 lb tongue weight limit. It appears that only the 4 door models are suitable for safely towing a Tab, and only certain axle ratios of those.

In other words, @andyboy is almost certainly over one or both of his limits with a 2021 320s Boondock that’s loaded for camping. I’d get that trailer weighed at a commercial weigh station ASAP (load it as for camping first for an accurate weigh). You can weigh the tongue at home.

Can someone with more experience speak to the “frontal area” column? First time I’ve seen one of those in a manual. I’m assuming that’s the frontal area of the trailer? Would that be height from the ground x width, or would it refer to the height x width of the cabin of the trailer only? Either way, I’m thinking the Tab 320 would exceed 25 sq ft, wouldn’t it?

ChrisFix

If you watch to the end (or just towards the end) there is an interesting discussion about towing with a Wrangler in general by this father & son team who have a lot of experience with lots of trucks and towing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csbZX4SJwnE

4ncar

VictoriaP said:

Well. We always tell people to check their Owner’s Manual, so I did. Here’s the link to the 2015 Jeep Wrangler manual:
https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/servicemanuals/jeep/2015-wrangler.pdf

Screen cap (may be a bit fuzzy as it’s been resized):

The relevant section starts on page 540 and continues on 541. There were three listings for the 2 door Rubicon. ALL THREE have a 2,000 pound towing limit, and 200 lb tongue weight limit. It appears that only the 4 door models are suitable for safely towing a Tab, and only certain axle ratios of those.

In other words, @andyboy is almost certainly over one or both of his limits with a 2021 320s Boondock that’s loaded for camping. I’d get that trailer weighed at a commercial weigh station ASAP (load it as for camping first for an accurate weigh). You can weigh the tongue at home.

Can someone with more experience speak to the “frontal area” column? First time I’ve seen one of those in a manual. I’m assuming that’s the frontal area of the trailer? Would that be height from the ground x width, or would it refer to the height x width of the cabin of the trailer only? Either way, I’m thinking the Tab 320 would exceed 25 sq ft, wouldn’t it?

...as I said, 10%.

4ncar

Regarding the video: who would ever expect any road tire to perform in mud!!😂😂 All my trucks/jeeps have been outfitted with BFG Allterrains; they throw mud, plus they are reasonably quiet on the road. 

I had the eco diesel in my Grand Cherokee. It was factory tuned like the Ram, so it had 460lbs of torque. It was amazing pulling my 320s. My only regret was putting too many miles on it!😂😂

andyboy

@4ncar @VictoriaP, thank you! I stand corrected on the towing weights. 

As for the boxes on my deck, they have a combined weight of 60 pounds. In the tub besides tbe propane tank and battery is 35 pound wheels locks, a pair of chocks and a couple snall rugs.
We carry most of our camping supplies in the Jeep.
Just food in the fridge, kitchen supplies, clothes  and two Superbags in the trailer.
My Jeep seems to have no problem towing at all.
We discovered early on though that handling is much better when we loaded up the Jeep.

VictoriaP

andyboy said:

@4ncar @VictoriaP, thank you! I stand corrected on the towing weights. 

As for the boxes on my deck, they have a combined weight of 60 pounds. In the tub besides tbe propane tank and battery is 35 pound wheels locks, a pair of chocks and a couple snall rugs.
We carry most of our camping supplies in the Jeep.
Just food in the fridge, kitchen supplies, clothes  and two Superbags in the trailer.
My Jeep seems to have no problem towing at all.
We discovered early on though that handling is much better when we loaded up the Jeep.

That is a LOT of weight added to the tongue, especially since you have the very heavy full size BD spare up front too. Just the food in the fridge can add another 20 lbs to your tongue weight...I’ve personally had it happen as I experimented with trying to stay below 200 lbs (that was just food and drink for one person for 4 days). Honestly? I came to the conclusion you can’t keep tongue weight that low with a current Boondock, and from a safety perspective, you shouldn’t anyway. The only Tabs that can pretty easily stay at or below 200 lbs on the tongue are the original Dutchman models.

If you’re loading up the Jeep with gear instead of the trailer, then you’re not just over the trailer and tongue weight limits, but very possibly your vehicle payload limit as well, since tongue weight counts towards payload. (Payload equals the weight of people, pets, cargo, hitch, and tongue weight...basically everything on or inside the vehicle.)

You really, really need to get an accurate weight on both trailer and tongue. If you’re exceeding those limits, you’re running a high risk of damaging your Jeep, as well as risking a denied insurance claim in case of accident.

andyboy

VictoriaP said:

andyboy said:

@4ncar @VictoriaP, thank you! I stand corrected on the towing weights. 

As for the boxes on my deck, they have a combined weight of 60 pounds. In the tub besides tbe propane tank and battery is 35 pound wheels locks, a pair of chocks and a couple snall rugs.
We carry most of our camping supplies in the Jeep.
Just food in the fridge, kitchen supplies, clothes  and two Superbags in the trailer.
My Jeep seems to have no problem towing at all.
We discovered early on though that handling is much better when we loaded up the Jeep.

That is a LOT of weight added to the tongue, especially since you have the very heavy full size BD spare up front too. Just the food in the fridge can add another 20 lbs to your tongue weight...I’ve personally had it happen as I experimented with trying to stay below 200 lbs (that was just food and drink for one person for 4 days). Honestly? I came to the conclusion you can’t keep tongue weight that low with a current Boondock, and from a safety perspective, you shouldn’t anyway. The only Tabs that can pretty easily stay at or below 200 lbs on the tongue are the original Dutchman models.

If you’re loading up the Jeep with gear instead of the trailer, then you’re not just over the trailer and tongue weight limits, but very possibly your vehicle payload limit as well, since tongue weight counts towards payload. (Payload equals the weight of people, pets, cargo, hitch, and tongue weight...basically everything on or inside the vehicle.)

You really, really need to get an accurate weight on both trailer and tongue. If you’re exceeding those limits, you’re running a high risk of damaging your Jeep, as well as risking a denied insurance claim in case of accident.

Thanks for all that information! Just one question, would I, from a towing standpoint, notice a weight issue? It seems to be rock solid and stops like it should. Anything I may notice? 

I will get it weighed. I appreciate you sage advice!!

VictoriaP

andyboy said:

VictoriaP said:

andyboy said:

@4ncar @VictoriaP, thank you! I stand corrected on the towing weights. 

As for the boxes on my deck, they have a combined weight of 60 pounds. In the tub besides tbe propane tank and battery is 35 pound wheels locks, a pair of chocks and a couple snall rugs.
We carry most of our camping supplies in the Jeep.
Just food in the fridge, kitchen supplies, clothes  and two Superbags in the trailer.
My Jeep seems to have no problem towing at all.
We discovered early on though that handling is much better when we loaded up the Jeep.

That is a LOT of weight added to the tongue, especially since you have the very heavy full size BD spare up front too. Just the food in the fridge can add another 20 lbs to your tongue weight...I’ve personally had it happen as I experimented with trying to stay below 200 lbs (that was just food and drink for one person for 4 days). Honestly? I came to the conclusion you can’t keep tongue weight that low with a current Boondock, and from a safety perspective, you shouldn’t anyway. The only Tabs that can pretty easily stay at or below 200 lbs on the tongue are the original Dutchman models.

If you’re loading up the Jeep with gear instead of the trailer, then you’re not just over the trailer and tongue weight limits, but very possibly your vehicle payload limit as well, since tongue weight counts towards payload. (Payload equals the weight of people, pets, cargo, hitch, and tongue weight...basically everything on or inside the vehicle.)

You really, really need to get an accurate weight on both trailer and tongue. If you’re exceeding those limits, you’re running a high risk of damaging your Jeep, as well as risking a denied insurance claim in case of accident.

Thanks for all that information! Just one question, would I, from a towing standpoint, notice a weight issue? It seems to be rock solid and stops like it should. Anything I may notice? 

I will get it weighed. I appreciate you sage advice!!

Not necessarily. My concern (aside from any mountain towing you might attempt in the future) is that the conditions that can lead to towing accidents are unpredictable. When I had a sway accident while towing a boat—with much lower wind resistance than your Tab—the trigger was a passing truck. High winds can come out of nowhere, and a vehicle not rated for the weight it’s towing may not be able to handle that. If your trailer brakes overheat and fail, even momentarily, your Jeep’s brakes alone may not be capable of stopping the combination.

And you just won’t know until it happens.

But again, the other issue, the one that is more common, is that your Jeep sustains damage from towing more than it’s capable of handling. The engine, transmission, and brakes are sized for towing smaller, lighter, and with less frontal area (wind resistance) than a Tab. That’s a lot of potential strain, and excessive wear and tear, and wouldn’t happen with a larger, more capable vehicle.

andyboy

While I’d hate get another vehicle for towing, butvif I did, I see you’ve got an Outback but aren’t  thrilled with it.
what would be your ideal vehicle.
My Jeep is my other worst  bad habit tied with my Boondock. They seem so perfect together.

VictoriaP

@andyboy I totally get that, believe me. What about another Jeep? A 4 door Wrangler with 3500 lb towing limit is what I call a “minimally capable” vehicle (same as the current generation Outback I settled for). While not an ideal tow vehicle, it would at least be safer than what you have. Or a Cherokee Trailhawk, we have a few people towing with those.

For most people, I think a vehicle with a 5000 lb limit is ideal for towing a 320, because it fits the rule that the safest tow vehicle can tow twice the weight of your trailer. Plus, most owners don’t want to have to limit themselves on what they’re going to carry; they want to bring along an extra Yeti cooler full of drinks, a generator & the gas to fuel it, a bike rack (often with heavy ebikes), kayaks, extra water jugs, a full outdoor kitchen, etc. 

It’s all about what compromises you’re willing to make. To go with a 3500 lb vehicle, you still have to be careful of what you’re carrying. I’ve seen a number of people here shocked to find their tongue weight at 350 lbs on a 320, because they just keep piling stuff on there. Which is why it’s so important for you to weigh that trailer tongue...if you’re at 250 or higher now, with the way you’re currently loaded, I’d absolutely say you’re going to be safest going with a 5000 lb tow limit.

andyboy

@VictoriaP, dang it! We ‘re offroaders and new to t@bing and was hoping to simply combine the two. A 4-door just isn’t right for us. We’re old school. If it’s not a 2-door it’s not a real Jeep.The thought of another vehicle with another payment and more insurance and more expenses to tow a trailer just doesn’t sound too good at this point. I have all winter to ponder the situation. 

I appreciate your food for thought....

VictoriaP

andyboy said:

@VictoriaP, dang it! We ‘re offroaders and new to t@bing and was hoping to simply combine the two. A 4-door just isn’t right for us. We’re old school. If it’s not a 2-door it’s not a real Jeep.The thought of another vehicle with another payment and more insurance and more expenses to tow a trailer just doesn’t sound too good at this point. I have all winter to ponder the situation. 

I appreciate your food for thought....

I truly wish I had a happier answer for you, because this situation is awful. I agonized over a similar issue for the last year, because I adored my car and hated having to spend the money. But there just isn’t a way to safely have the vehicle you love pull that particular trailer. You have to decide which is more important to you. 

In my case, I opted to change the car, for one I like well enough but don’t love, that’s better suited to handle the 320. I’m reminded every time I get behind the wheel that for me, this was a compromise. But maybe you can find something you’ll love almost as much as your current Jeep.

Or maybe in your case, going with a lighter trailer is the better choice? Normally, it would be costly to switch, but given the demand for RVs right now has literally never been higher, you could pretty easily recoup your entire investment or close to it in selling the Tab. It’s a unique opportunity, this market is just insane, and it won’t last past the pandemic. But it could allow you to buy something the Jeep can safely tow instead, like a Tag or a small popup. You’d want a dry weight of about 1000 pounds so by the time you loaded up, you’d still have a little room under the weight limits.

Another possibility would be to pick up an additional older but serviceable vehicle that you use only for towing, and keep the Jeep for everything else. Doesn’t have to be expensive, just in decent working condition. We have a lot of people here who tow with rigs from the early 2000’s. Insurance wouldn’t be outrageous on an older vehicle that only sees part time use.

Sharon_is_SAM

@VictoriaP - I have never seen guidance suggesting that a TV be sized to be able to tow twice the weight of the trailer.  What source are you using?   While you do have to respect any weight limits by not overloading, a 3500# tow capacity is very acceptable (and safe) for the TaBs.  

dragonsdofly

@Sharon_is_SAM, we have always towed by the double capacity "rule" too. DH has been a big rig driver since the age of 18. Just one of those safety tips passed on from those long ago times. (When 18 yr olds drove fuel tanker trucks, and before seat belts were required.) Our 2005 gmc xl has a tow rating of 5,000 and a tongue rating of 500 lbs. It is the lightest and smallest vehicle we tow with, although I will say that the chevy 2500hd is a bit of overkill.The old timers say it will prevent the tail from wagging the dog, meaning in an emergency, the tow vehicle has enough weight and mass to prevent or control trailer sway or a possible moving jack-knife or roll over situation. -Denise

4ncar

@andyboy: I feel your pain. First photo is my original rig, thinking I could have best of both worlds: ‘09 JKU Rubicon, lifted & 35’s(among other off roaming mods). Second foto my current rig at a campsite  when I went jeeping with my buds, but I was only a passenger for the trip.  In the end, my “rubi” wasn’t up to the towing task; engine worked way too hard to include 45 mph with flashers on in the right lane going up into the mountains, not to mention fuel economy, it wasn’t worth it. The JKU had the 3500/350 rating, but the journey sucked! I had to make the choice. Good luck with your decision (s).

Ps: as soon as the balcony skins are worn out on my Colorado, bfgoodies ATRs will be the tire of choice, as all my trucks get.

dlb

On the Tab site, the 320 has a maximum GAWR of 2900.  That is a all the axle and frame can safely hold.  That is the data.  https://nucamprv.com/tab-camper/nucamp-tab-s-specifications/

Having a tow vehicle rated for 3,500 pound towing capacity or more is perfectly acceptable from the vehicle manufactures and insurance point of view.  Having a vehicle that can tow more is personal choice.  

Many people on this site have this type of set up and are just fine with it.

andyboy

Insomnia is a great decider. My Jeep was a dream. Diid it. Loved it. But this Boondock...it’s a new dream!
Just found a great pre-owned Grand Cherokee with a towing capacity of 6200. Should work just fine.

4ncar

andyboy said:

Insomnia is a great decider. My Jeep was a dream. Diid it. Loved it. But this Boondock...it’s a new dream!
Just found a great pre-owned Grand Cherokee with a towing capacity of 6200. Should work just fine.

Had one of those too(diesel)😉

VictoriaP

Sharon_is_SAM said:

@VictoriaP - I have never seen guidance suggesting that a TV be sized to be able to tow twice the weight of the trailer.  What source are you using?   While you do have to respect any weight limits by not overloading, a 3500# tow capacity is very acceptable (and safe) for the TaBs.  

@Sharon_is_SAM

As @dragonsdofly said, it’s the original guideline I’ve heard my entire life for the safest sizing of a tow vehicle. I believe it to be true for the reasons she suggests and I also stated. Sway is more easily controlled at less risk to the vehicle, and the vehicle should still be able to stop adequately if the trailer brakes fail. Neither of these is true when vehicle and trailer weights are more similar to each other, even if you’re technically towing under your limit. Most lightweight tows specify that trailer brakes are required for trailers over 1000 lbs, because the vehicle brakes alone are not sized or adequately powered for that kind of weight.

However. We tell everyone they need at least 3500 lbs for a 320. It’s the difference between an ideal tow, and a mostly acceptable one, and after a lot of research and soul searching, I chose to go with acceptable rather than ideal for a number of non towing related reasons. It’s like choosing from items rated Good, Better, or Best...I picked Good, knowing it meant I’d have to compromise a bit. I believe I’ll be safe, or I wouldn’t have bought it. But I’m not fooling myself into thinking it’s the best or safest, it’s just good enough, and I will have to limit what I haul along to keep it that way.

3500 as a minimum guideline is fine, but we need to acknowledge and make clear that it’s a minimum, not the ideal choice for many owners. It’s way, way too easy to overload the tongue and payload (and by extension, the rear axle rating) of a rig in that weight class, even if you never come close to the overall towing weight capacity. I could by name point out users on here with 3500 lb vehicles who are grossly overloaded, not even remotely safe, and who’ve made it clear they think they’re fine because they’ve heard over and over that 3500 is all they need. It’s a good starting point for TV sizing, IF you commit to traveling fairly light, but most RVers want to bring far too much with them to commit to that. If you’re the type to load up the tongue with gear, or stuff the car to the ceiling, using a minimum vehicle will eventually come back to bite you.

Denny16

I think a Jeep (4-door model with 3500/350 rating) is good for outback,and off road towing for a TaB320, but not the best choice for highway or high mountain passes, if you want to go 50-50mph.  A Jeep towing a small TaB or TaG at 45 mph is going to work, but not much faster, the Jeep had to work too hard.

That said, I think the TaG is a perfect match for the smaller classic Jeeps.
cheers

andyboy

4ncar said:

andyboy said:

Insomnia is a great decider. My Jeep was a dream. Diid it. Loved it. But this Boondock...it’s a new dream!
Just found a great pre-owned Grand Cherokee with a towing capacity of 6200. Should work just fine.

Had one of those too(diesel)😉

 @4ncar Were you happy with the Grand Cherokee? The one I'm drooling over is an Overland edition.

Sharon_is_SAM

I think the message should be that owners need to heed weight limits related to tow capacity.  

On another note, I found a good source for state by state trailer brake requirements.  Looks like 3,000 # is the magic number for most states.  Thought it was lower, but maybe they have figured out that most vehicles with significant tow capacities are actually pretty heavy.

https://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/trailer-brakes/

dsfdogs

@4ncar I know you are towing a 320, but do you think the Colorado would do ok with a 400? The tow rating seems great for a mid size truck. 

Denny16

@dsfdogs, the Colorado is about the same tow capacity as my Jeep Truck, and it tows our 2018 TaB 400 Boondock just fine.  Traveling Robert is using a Colorado to tow his Winne Mini, which is slightly larger than a TaB400.
cheere