Electrical Question

T@Balong

Last night we had an all night thunderstorm here where we live.   Our T@B was parked outside under its shelter and plugged into shore power from the house, though I had the battery cutoff switch on off.   Today when I checked on things, with the battery switch still off, the lights inside the trailer did not work although the 110 outlets did.  Is this normal?   When I turned the battery switch on, everything worked.   Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought previously that even with the battery switch off, when plugged into shore power, all outlets and lights worked fine.  Anyone care to shed light on this......pun intended!

Mouseketab

You may have some damage to the 12V side of your converter. 

ColoradoJon

All systems should work when connected to shore power, batteries turned off.  This happened to me and it was a faulty converter that I ended up replacing myself.  WFCO warranted the converter and shipped me a new one free of charge.

T@Balong

I pulled all the fuses and none are blown.  So when plugged into shore power with the battery switch off, should both the 110 outlets AND the interior lights be working?

ColoradoJon

Yes!  If you are good with a volt meter, WFCO has a simple test that you can run.  Call their tech support number and they will give you instructions.  The info is also available on their website.  FYI - their tech support was excellent when I had problems with mine.

T@Balong

I have no experience with a volt meter but I may have to call WFCO

ScottG

I'm assuming none of your 12V devices (lights, fan, water pump) work when the battery is disconnected.

If so, I agree it sounds like a fried converter. You are clearly still getting 120V to the trailer as the outlets work. However, the 120V is not being converted to 12V (the job of the converter).

When you connect the battery, it provides the needed 12V. Since everything works on battery, the problem is not in the 12v distribution wiring.

The only thing between the 120V supply and the 12V distribution is the converter.

ColoradoJon

Yep, sorry.  It looks as if the 12v side of your converter is bad.  They aren't expensive units but if you are not comfortable replacing it on your own you will have to take it in to the dealer.  It's not a difficult process except for having to cut, then splice all of the 12v wires with butt splices and a crimp tool.

dsfdogs

This issue has me thinking I should use my surge protector at home when the trailer is plugged in, just like at a campground. Of course it would need to be plugged into the 20 to 30 amp converter...will it still work? Does anyone else do this?

T@Balong

Thanks for the helpful comments.   I called the tech desk at WFCO, and over the phone with him, when I had the battery switch on off but trailer hooked up to shore power, no lights, fan or pump worked.   He said my converter was fried.   Later in the day, under the same circumstances, everything worked.   I called my service tech at the dealer, described the symptoms and he told me to bring it in tomorrow morning.   This dealer has a Critical Issue guarantee that they will get me back on the road ASAP.   For this issue, they'll fix it tomorrow.  And in reply to an earlier comment, I had checked my shore power at home with my surge protector, and there were no error codes so I haven't been using it here.  But the lightning storm we had the other night was another matter!

ColoradoJon

Well shoot!  Good turnaround times at the dealer, though.  Glad you can get it handled so quickly!

ChanW

@dsfdogs, yes, I always use the surge protector. No reason not to.

Yes, at home we have to use the 20A/30A adapter. 

Sharon_is_SAM

Just like a home computer system always plugged into a surge protector (we also have ours plugged into a dedicated circuit) it is best practice to always use a surge protector.  Even better, use an advanced electrical management system that identifies and protects against high and low voltage (an air conditioner unit killer), open ground, reversed polarity etc. Very useful at private and public campgrounds under budget constraints and questionable ongoing electrical maintenance.  It will help protect your expensive investment and your life (RV hot-skin).  Even at home, storms or surges can have an impact.

jkjenn

A lightning storm is a perfect example of why I personally do not believe that only testing power prior to connecting to shore power is enough and why Inprefer an Electrical Manahement System (EMS.) I have been connected to a quality pole at a CG during storms in Moab and had my surge protector kick in when lighting hit something in the area. 

Sharon_is_SAM

Yep.  The current recommendation is before lightening gets close, best to disconnect from power all together.  So if you hear thunder, power down and disconnect from the pole then go to battery/LPG as necessary.  Check out Mike Sokol’s advice.

dhauf

I will personally be installing one of these for my 2019 T@b when I receive it later in Sept.  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002UC6RSA/?coliid=I29QD425O98GPL&colid=3H5MR4JR37AIS&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

It mounts inside, you can cut the romex wire going to the outside plug and wire it right in.  It offers many protections such as: Open Ground, Open Neutral and Reverse Polarity detection and protection, Over/Under voltage Protection, Accidental 240V Protection and A/C Frequency Protection and surge protection.  I think this is a better solution to carrying around the dog-bone style inline surge protector.  Just install it and forget about it!  There is a remote piece you can mount on the wall also to monitor the incoming power and check for any issues.  It also has a button to bypass the open ground protection so you can run your generator, it will still protect against the other things in this mode but just bypasses open ground.  Of course always better to unplug in a storm no matter what, but if you don't have a choice then this should work perfectly.

JohnDanielsCPA

No doubt, the progressive industries EMS is best in class for 110V protection.  I have two for my fifth wheel. One is a portable and the other is the hard-wired as you are showing.

I upgraded to the hard-wired for simplicity; I didn’t want to worry about someone walking off with my portable and to reduce setup and teardown time.  One thing I will warn you about; the hard-wired has a tendency to hum.  Mine does, and it can be very annoying at times.  My fifth wheel is in the shop right now to fix a broken shower panel, but I asked them to take a look at the EMS to see if there is anything they can do to reduce the humming noise.  The technician was not hopeful, but said he would take a look at it.  I did call Progressive Industries some time ago who advised the hum could be reduced by dismantling the EMS and cleaning out the “coil?”  That’s beyond me.

Anyway, just a note . . .

dhauf

JohnDanielsCPA said:

No doubt, the progressive industries EMS is best in class for 110V protection.  I have two for my fifth wheel. One is a portable and the other is the hard-wired as you are showing.

I upgraded to the hard-wired for simplicity; I didn’t want to worry about someone walking off with my portable and to reduce setup and teardown time.  One thing I will warn you about; the hard-wired has a tendency to hum.  Mine does, and it can be very annoying at times.  My fifth wheel is in the shop right now to fix a broken shower panel, but I asked them to take a look at the EMS to see if there is anything they can do to reduce the humming noise.  The technician was not hopeful, but said he would take a look at it.  I did call Progressive Industries some time ago who advised the hum could be reduced by dismantling the EMS and cleaning out the “coil?”  That’s beyond me.

Anyway, just a note . . .

Exactly, I want to have to bring as little as needed with me.  One less thing to worry about.   That is interesting about the humming issue.  I'll have to see if that happens to me when I get it as well.

Sharon_is_SAM

Maybe if you can install it somewhere in the cabin away from the bed.  In the U/S model maybe in the closet or cabinet next to the sink or over the counter.  In the CS model, maybe under the front counter or in a galley cabinet that does not get hot from the Alde.  I think the converter fan can annoy people as it is.

dhauf

Sharon_is_SAM said:

Maybe if you can install it somewhere in the cabin away from the bed.  In the U/S model maybe in the closet or cabinet next to the sink or over the counter.  In the CS model, maybe under the front counter or in a galley cabinet that does not get hot from the Alde.  I think the converter fan can annoy people as it is.

That might be kind of hard to do since the romex wiring comes right from the side of the T@b directly to the WFCO box.  It would mean re-routing all the wiring.  Its possible I can mount some sort of rubber or foam isolator under it to minimize any humming.  Seems like it shouldn't do that though.  Perhaps there is an issue with it if it hums that loudly.  All it is a small board with some heavy duty MOV's on it and some circuitry for monitoring and a contactor inside.  Its possible that the coil in the contactor is messed up, AC units also have these contactors and usually don't hum when engaged.

dsfdogs

I use the big EMS-pt30x that does everything but make my coffee. It was bigger and heavier than I thought it would be too. I secure it with a Brinks 5/8" braided cable and padlock. A hard-wired unit would be nice, but too late now! I'll go plug it in to use at home too. Thanks.

Over/Under Voltage ProtectionOpen Ground, Open Neutral & Reverse Polarity ProtectionAccidental 240V ProtectionSurge Failure IndicatorCurrent IndicationPrevious Error Code (PE)A/C Frequency Protection

Sharon_is_SAM

I wonder if the installed EMSs get too warm installed under our benches with exposure to Alde heat.

ScottG

Could be. I know I get too warm on top of the benches when I'm exposed to Alde heat!  ;-)

T@Balong

The good news is that I have a new converter installed by my dealer.  The bad news is that my checkbook is empty.   So, all the above comments about the dangers of lightning storms are true.   The foolish part of this story is that I have a Progressive Industries EMS which I was not using at home.   If I can figure out how to secure it, I'll use it at home.   Otherwise, when I return from a trip, I'll charge my unit up with shore power (in good weather of course!), then unplug and hit the battery disconnect until it's time for the next outing.

dhauf

Sharon_is_SAM said:

I wonder if the installed EMSs get too warm installed under our benches with exposure to Alde heat.

Actually I was planning on installing it on the 2x4 under the driver side wheel well right next to the WFCO box.  There is a wood divider keeping it away from the ALDI system so it should stay fairly cool.  Also I don't think there is too much to get hot, the contactor is like a big relay and has a electromagnetic coil that sucks the contactor down when engaged.  This is used to break the connection to shore power is any of the over-voltage or over-current or open ground conditions are met. Its possible that coil may get a little bit warm as it is like a relay, but it should not get very hot.  When I get mine installed I will post some pictures and I also have a Flir thermal camera so I can take readings on it to see how hot it gets.

JohnDanielsCPA

I don’t think you will have problems with heat in that location; seems the perfect spot to install it.  I will also say the hum from my EMS is not impacted by heat; the hum starts immediately when the EMS is powered, so it’s something within the EMS itself.  Also, I didn’t want to give the impression that the hum is particularly loud.  With normal background noise, you probably wouldn’t even notice it.  But when it’s quiet, you can hear it.  Progressive Industries told me installing isolators would reduce the humming sound.  I haven’t got a clue what those are nor where they would be installed!  If anyone knows, I would love to be enlightened.  Regardless of all this, I am very happy to have an EMS.  I have run into a fair share of badly wired campgrounds; my EMS saved my rig.

Sharon_is_SAM

Campground pedestals can be problematic.  We purchased a non-contact voltage tester and now start with that, then proceed to the EMS.  You can't be too careful.  

dhauf

JohnDanielsCPA said:

I don’t think you will have problems with heat in that location; seems the perfect spot to install it.  I will also say the hum from my EMS is not impacted by heat; the hum starts immediately when the EMS is powered, so it’s something within the EMS itself.  Also, I didn’t want to give the impression that the hum is particularly loud.  With normal background noise, you probably wouldn’t even notice it.  But when it’s quiet, you can hear it.  Progressive Industries told me installing isolators would reduce the humming sound.  I haven’t got a clue what those are nor where they would be installed!  If anyone knows, I would love to be enlightened.  Regardless of all this, I am very happy to have an EMS.  I have run into a fair share of badly wired campgrounds; my EMS saved my rig.

Thats great to know!  I have a feeling the isolators they are referring to is a vibration isolator.  Perhaps something like these washers would fix the issue or make it much less noticeable.

https://www.amazon.com/Isolate-Sorbothane-Vibration-Isolation-Washer/dp/B019O44KU8/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1535597510&sr=8-4&keywords=vibration+isolation+washers