T@B 400 2019 Tongue Weight

Awca12a

If anyone has taken their TAB400 2019 trailer through a CAT scale, or has put it on a trailer tongue scale, could you post your results here along with which options you have and whether you weighed it with full or empty tanks?

It would be of great help as there seems to be no clear answer from nuCAMP for tongue weights on the new trailers and most of us seem to be towing with vehicles that are expecting 405# with propane and batteries but dry tanks.

DenisP

I have a Shurline scale and have weighted my 2018 400 at a Cat scale to check overall weight fully loaded.(3400 lbs).  I have missed a window of opportunity as I just returned from a 3800 mile trip to Florida and SC and unloaded the 400 for storage. I can pull together tongue weights scenarios in April loaded, unloaded.. 

BigGrover

@Awca12a & @DenisP, just got back from weighing my 400 BD Lite's tongue weight.  Trailer loaded for camping,spare mounted under tongue, LP tank full, Andersen Leveler(6 lbs) and stinky slinky with support in tongue box.  All water tanks empty, the needle came right up next to the 500 lb mark.

BigGrover

PS this is about 35 lbs more than my 2018 Regular T@b 400.

JEB

BigGrover said:

PS this is about 35 lbs more than my 2018 Regular T@b 400.

This is great info.  Thanks.

The 400 is deceptive.  It’s kinda portly for a small trailer.  Not easily towed by vehicles without at least a 5000# tow rating.

treefrog

2019 standard model 400.
No propane tank, all other tanks empty 460lbs.

[Deleted User]

Was the spare under the tongue? That's a 40 pound wheel and tire I would guess.

[Deleted User]

Was the spare under the tongue? That's a 40 pound wheel and tire I would guess.

treefrog

Yes, spare tire is installed.

BigGrover

Yep and the full propane tank is about 35 lbs too.  The trailer wad designed with both these heavy items to be carried at the tongue so their weight should have been taken into account.  Bottom line is the actual tongue weight is right at 40 lbs higher than the weight in the published specs.  

[Deleted User]

So this is the burning question for me, and I fully understand the need to have the front of the trailer be 60% of the weight and the 10-15% tongue weight ratio, couldnt you drop the tire and the propane tank entirely and still be within those proper ratios? That is potentially a 75 pound direct deduction off the already high end tongue weight? I mean Nucamp themselves admitted they are concerned about the higher weights at 475 at their last check.  I dont know how you would ever know what your actual ratios are unless you were able to spend about an hour or more at a commercial scale.  In my countless hours of research now, I considered switching out the 20lb (35lbs) propane tank with an 11lb propane tank (25lbs) for a 10 pound reduction and dropping the spare (40lbs) to potentially get the tongue weight down to say 425 which would seem to likely still fit in the ratios.  You could put the spare in the TV forward of the rear axle or leave it home and call Good Sam Roadside Assist and they will bring you a tire if you get a flat. In all honesty, I'm going to call them to change the tire even if I have the spare because I have a bad back.  You could go another step and get a "jack-e-up" device and remove your jack after you are hooked up to the TV for another savings and again you could put the jack in the TV forward of the rear axle.  

Bottom line is, the tongue weight is already considered somewhat excessive, so you could make some of the changes and have a lighter tongue weight that would still have you within proper ratios all around....I'm thinking. 

Sharon_is_SAM

Keep in mind, the weight removed does not correlate to a pound for pound reduction in tongue weight.

[Deleted User]

I was wondering about that. Thanks for clarifying.

treefrog

Many boat trailers out here have swing tongues. The longer tongue makes it easier to back up the trailer and when folded the trailer is easier to store. Its also easier to access your TV tailgate or rear door.  Many boats weigh much more than 5000lbs so weight on a swing tongue is not an issue. I think a longer tongue would transfer less weight.
I don't know if this is a possible solution but the published weight with propane is 405lbs and the actual weight is closer to 500lbs.
Thats more than a 20% difference. 
I know there are probably reasons why my suggestion won't work. I hope that someone smarter than me finds a resolution. 

BigGrover

I did experiment with my last trailer that had a dual propane set up.  When I removed one full tank it only made a 15 lb TW change.

[Deleted User]

15 pounds is 15 pounds toward how ever much you can reduce tongue weight overall so 15 pounds sounds great! I was excited about 10 pounds haha. 

BigGrover

Anything that helps get to that 15% is good.  I am going today to find a plug for the regulator and remove my lp tank   wish there was a place to move the spare behind the axle.

Awca12a

Thanks to all the people who have contributed here, we now have enough information to make reasoned decisions.  The factory elected not to respond to my email and given the crickets here, I don't expect them to weigh in.  We are, on our own.  Fortunately we have a good well-built trailer and the facts to make decisions.  I'm posting this here for future buyers and people who do their research before buying so they know what to expect.   When I purchased my Airstream, the dealer said I was fine with my TV which through the lens of hindsight, was not dissimilar to this situation with the T@B400.  Difference is that the factory published correct data and I didn't know enough to question the dealer.

FACTS as we believe them to be:
1) The 2019 T@B400 is built on a Norco BAL OEM trailer frame.  It is made from (edit: not aluminum) high strength low alloy steel "C" channel that is 4-3/8" wide.
2) You can not use a weight distribution hitch on the Norco BAL OEM frame because engineers smarter than me said so.  Has someting to do with it bending due to leverage forces but for now, we just can't do it.
3) Many vehicles with 5000# towing capacities appear to have a sentence, deep within their literature or owners manual that if you exceed X# of tongue weight, you need a weight distribution hitch.  A 5000# hitch using a rule-of-thumb formula has a 500# or 10% tongue capacity.  
4) The trailer as weighed per the data above is roughly 460# and with LB, trail mix, underwear, toothpaste and some water will push or exceed 500# on the tongue.
5) Tongue Weight refers to any weight in the vehicle that is between the axle and the end of the vehicle.  So if you store backpacks, water jugs or anything in the rear portion, this counts towards the 500# of tongue weight.
6) You should have a margin of error on all your specification meaning you shouldn't load a 500# hitch with 500# but be something under that by a factor of perhaps 10%.
7) Engineers overbuild and underspec but while a military crane might be 40% overbuilt, a civilian device is likely on the order of 20-30% overbuilt.  So, if you drive a 500# hitch with 500# of weight it won't fall off the car but it will impact the other systems especially if you are overloaded in other respects or under maintained on things like suspension & brakes.
6) We can't do anything about the tongue weight of the trailer because the 20# propane tank is already pretty small assuming you intend to boondock in it.
7) That leaves me at least with the belief that you need a 7000# capacity to safely own and operate the 2019 T@B400.  This is a disappointment given the wast of money on my Equalizer hitch and Toyota TV was easily avoided but fortunately we have a forum that was able to step-in an clarify what we are all dealing with.
8) I'm going shopping for an F150.  RAM is out because I need a flat floor for the dogs and Tahoe is out because the pricing is nuts.
9) If anyone is interested in a gently used 600# equalizer hitch, or a phenomenally maintained 2013 Toyota 4Runner with a recently installed transmission & engine cooler, let me know.
10) I'm going to enjoy my TAB and go camping!

treefrog

Awca12a said:

Thanks to all the people who have contributed here, we now have enough information to make reasoned decisions.  The factory elected not to respond to my email and given the crickets here, I don't expect them to weigh in.  We are, on our own.  Fortunately we have a good well-built trailer and the facts to make decisions.  I'm posting this here for future buyers and people who do their research before buying so they know what to expect.   When I purchased my Airstream, the dealer said I was fine with my TV which through the lens of hindsight, was not dissimilar to this situation with the T@B400.  Difference is that the factory published correct data and I didn't know enough to question the dealer.

FACTS as we believe them to be:
1) The 2019 T@B400 is built on a Norco BAL OEM trailer frame.  It is made from aluminum "C" channel that is 4-3-5/8" wide.
2) You can not use a weight distribution hitch on the Norco BAL OEM frame because engineers smarter than me said so.  Has someting to do with it bending due to leverage forces but for now, we just can't do it.
3) Many vehicles with 5000# towing capacities appear to have a sentence, deep within their literature or owners manual that if you exceed X# of tongue weight, you need a weight distribution hitch.  A 5000# hitch using a rule-of-thumb formula has a 500# or 10% tongue capacity.  
4) The trailer as weighed per the data above is roughly 460# and with LB, trail mix, underwear, toothpaste and some water will push or exceed 500# on the tongue.
5) Tongue Weight refers to any weight in the vehicle that is between the axle and the end of the vehicle.  So if you store backpacks, water jugs or anything in the rear portion, this counts towards the 500# of tongue weight.
6) You should have a margin of error on all your specification meaning you shouldn't load a 500# hitch with 500# but be something under that by a factor of perhaps 10%.
7) Engineers overbuild and underspec but while a military crane might be 40% overbuilt, a civilian device is likely on the order of 20-30% overbuilt.  So, if you drive a 500# hitch with 500# of weight it won't fall off the car but it will impact the other systems especially if you are overloaded in other respects or under maintained on things like suspension & brakes.
6) We can't do anything about the tongue weight of the trailer because the 20# propane tank is already pretty small assuming you intend to boondock in it.
7) That leaves me at least with the belief that you need a 7000# capacity to safely own and operate the 2019 T@B400.  This is a disappointment given the wast of money on my Equalizer hitch and Toyota TV was easily avoided but fortunately we have a forum that was able to step-in an clarify what we are all dealing with.
8) I'm going shopping for an F150.  RAM is out because I need a flat floor for the dogs and Tahoe is out because the pricing is nuts.
9) If anyone is interested in a gently used 600# equalizer hitch, or a phenomenally maintained 2013 Toyota 4Runner with a recently installed transmission & engine cooler, let me know.
10) I'm going to enjoy my TAB and go camping!

I agree. looks like this trailer would be best towed by a truck or full size suv (not a 4Runner).

I do think nuCamp needs to be involved. Their specs were off by 20%+.

grubbster

All this talk makes me glad I'm pulling my 400 with a Ram 2500.  No problems!

Arwen

grubbster said:

All this talk makes me glad I'm pulling my 400 with a Ram 2500.  No problems!

And I'm really gland that I didn't let my boyfriend talk me into purchasing the 400, as it definitely exceeds the towing limits of my Jeep Cherokee!  Plus I'm VERY happy with my 320 S Boondock, which my Jeep tows without any trouble.

JEB

Awca12a said:

Thanks to all the people who have contributed here, we now have enough information to make reasoned decisions.  The factory elected not to respond to my email and given the crickets here, I don't expect them to weigh in.  We are, on our own.  Fortunately we have a good well-built trailer and the facts to make decisions.  I'm posting this here for future buyers and people who do their research before buying so they know what to expect.   When I purchased my Airstream, the dealer said I was fine with my TV which through the lens of hindsight, was not dissimilar to this situation with the T@B400.  Difference is that the factory published correct data and I didn't know enough to question the dealer.

FACTS as we believe them to be:
1) The 2019 T@B400 is built on a Norco BAL OEM trailer frame.  It is made from aluminum "C" channel that is 4-3-5/8" wide.
2) You can not use a weight distribution hitch on the Norco BAL OEM frame because engineers smarter than me said so.  Has someting to do with it bending due to leverage forces but for now, we just can't do it.
3) Many vehicles with 5000# towing capacities appear to have a sentence, deep within their literature or owners manual that if you exceed X# of tongue weight, you need a weight distribution hitch.  A 5000# hitch using a rule-of-thumb formula has a 500# or 10% tongue capacity.  
4) The trailer as weighed per the data above is roughly 460# and with LB, trail mix, underwear, toothpaste and some water will push or exceed 500# on the tongue.
5) Tongue Weight refers to any weight in the vehicle that is between the axle and the end of the vehicle.  So if you store backpacks, water jugs or anything in the rear portion, this counts towards the 500# of tongue weight.
6) You should have a margin of error on all your specification meaning you shouldn't load a 500# hitch with 500# but be something under that by a factor of perhaps 10%.
7) Engineers overbuild and underspec but while a military crane might be 40% overbuilt, a civilian device is likely on the order of 20-30% overbuilt.  So, if you drive a 500# hitch with 500# of weight it won't fall off the car but it will impact the other systems especially if you are overloaded in other respects or under maintained on things like suspension & brakes.
6) We can't do anything about the tongue weight of the trailer because the 20# propane tank is already pretty small assuming you intend to boondock in it.
7) That leaves me at least with the belief that you need a 7000# capacity to safely own and operate the 2019 T@B400.  This is a disappointment given the wast of money on my Equalizer hitch and Toyota TV was easily avoided but fortunately we have a forum that was able to step-in an clarify what we are all dealing with.
8) I'm going shopping for an F150.  RAM is out because I need a flat floor for the dogs and Tahoe is out because the pricing is nuts.
9) If anyone is interested in a gently used 600# equalizer hitch, or a phenomenally maintained 2013 Toyota 4Runner with a recently installed transmission & engine cooler, let me know.
10) I'm going to enjoy my TAB and go camping!

@Awca12a
I’m not sure #5 is quite correct.  You may be mixing up tongue weight and payload.  Tongue weight counts toward the tow vehicle’s payload, but I don’t think payload counts toward tongue weight.  Tongue weight is governed by the hitch rating.  And to confuse things even more, both payload AND tongue weight count toward the rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR).  Thus, to be in full compliance, tongue weight has to be below the hitch rating, tongue weight plus cargo in the tow vehicle has to be below the tow vehicle’s payload rating, and EVERYTHING combined, including the vehicle, has to be below the rear GAWR.

Awca12a

You are absolutely correct but my 5000# rating more than covered those issues.  Problem here is the tongue weight pushing me higher.  The Ranger would be perfect st 6600# but the rear seats don’t fold flat so there is a place for the dogs. 

MandoBiker

Awca12a said:

Thanks to all the people who have contributed here, we now have enough information to make reasoned decisions.  The factory elected not to respond to my email and given the crickets here, I don't expect them to weigh in.  We are, on our own.  Fortunately we have a good well-built trailer and the facts to make decisions.  I'm posting this here for future buyers and people who do their research before buying so they know what to expect.   When I purchased my Airstream, the dealer said I was fine with my TV which through the lens of hindsight, was not dissimilar to this situation with the T@B400.  Difference is that the factory published correct data and I didn't know enough to question the dealer.

FACTS as we believe them to be:
1) The 2019 T@B400 is built on a Norco BAL OEM trailer frame.  It is made from aluminum "C" channel that is 4-3-5/8" wide.
2) You can not use a weight distribution hitch on the Norco BAL OEM frame because engineers smarter than me said so.  Has someting to do with it bending due to leverage forces but for now, we just can't do it.
3) Many vehicles with 5000# towing capacities appear to have a sentence, deep within their literature or owners manual that if you exceed X# of tongue weight, you need a weight distribution hitch.  A 5000# hitch using a rule-of-thumb formula has a 500# or 10% tongue capacity.  
4) The trailer as weighed per the data above is roughly 460# and with LB, trail mix, underwear, toothpaste and some water will push or exceed 500# on the tongue.
5) Tongue Weight refers to any weight in the vehicle that is between the axle and the end of the vehicle.  So if you store backpacks, water jugs or anything in the rear portion, this counts towards the 500# of tongue weight.
6) You should have a margin of error on all your specification meaning you shouldn't load a 500# hitch with 500# but be something under that by a factor of perhaps 10%.
7) Engineers overbuild and underspec but while a military crane might be 40% overbuilt, a civilian device is likely on the order of 20-30% overbuilt.  So, if you drive a 500# hitch with 500# of weight it won't fall off the car but it will impact the other systems especially if you are overloaded in other respects or under maintained on things like suspension & brakes.
6) We can't do anything about the tongue weight of the trailer because the 20# propane tank is already pretty small assuming you intend to boondock in it.
7) That leaves me at least with the belief that you need a 7000# capacity to safely own and operate the 2019 T@B400.  This is a disappointment given the wast of money on my Equalizer hitch and Toyota TV was easily avoided but fortunately we have a forum that was able to step-in an clarify what we are all dealing with.
8) I'm going shopping for an F150.  RAM is out because I need a flat floor for the dogs and Tahoe is out because the pricing is nuts.
9) If anyone is interested in a gently used 600# equalizer hitch, or a phenomenally maintained 2013 Toyota 4Runner with a recently installed transmission & engine cooler, let me know.
10) I'm going to enjoy my TAB and go camping!

#1 is not quite correct.  The BAL Norco frame is not aluminum but high strength low ally steel.

#2 is also not necessarily correct.  NuCamp seems to have reluctantly given an answer on this and they recommended only a bolt on WDH, however we know equalizer makes brackets specifically for the BAL Norco frames and we haven’t heard BAL Norcos a take on it.

i agree that with a 500 lb tongue limit you may be pushing it, but plenty of people are safely towing 400s with 4 runners and you can probably keep the tongue weight under 500 if you’re careful.

Awca12a

grubbster said:

All this talk makes me glad I'm pulling my 400 with a Ram 2500.  No problems!

Funny.  After all this came up, we used our F250 diesel for the last trip.  Talk about massive overkill. 

JEB

@MandoBiker
We may have heard from BAL Norco, depending on who put this sticker on the frame.  The third bullet suggests that weight distribution hitches are acceptable, so long as you don’t use spring bars rated for more than 750 lbs.  I haven’t read of anyone towing a T@B using a spring bar larger than 600 lbs.

The second bullet puzzles me.  An F250 or a Ram 2500 is too big?

BigGrover

@Awca12a I took the back seats out of my ranger so I could put a flat platform in it.  I pulled mmyfirst T@b 400 with it til I got my Quadcab Frontier

Awca12a

I considered doing that as the new Ranger is absolutely brilliant.  In the end, don’t want to be putting them in and out.  Right now trying to decide if we really need a cap or if a Cover will do the trick.  Never seen them in operation so off to the Ford forum later.  

BigGrover

@Awca12a I have had both, right now I have a Rollback hard Tonneau cover.  Saving up for a cap.  Gonna get a Leer.  I had one on my Frontier and really liked it.  Had the Windoors on it so I could access the bed from all sides as necessary.  I'm gonna get the one that is about 6" higher than the truck cab so we can put our bicycles in it standing up.

Awca12a

Going to warm up the scale and measure again.  

BigGrover

@Awca12a, each tic between 400 and 600 should be 50 lbs.  I read it as about 560-570