T@B 400 2019 Tongue Weight

ChrisFix

Awca12a said:

@dragonsdofly  Having tried to access the battery compartment in the 400, it appeared to me that it would be a multi-hour process to take apart the storage area bracing and venting connections.  I'm hard pressed to believe that the new 400's arrive with empty battery compartments but who knows.

I agree with you. Every T@B 400 I've seen on dealer lots had the battery (now batteries) installed (with power disconnected). I don't think the dealers would actually want to have to be responsible for the 400's battery installation as it is not nearly as simple as most tongue mounted batteries, including the T@B 320.

[Deleted User]

I asked about that while on the phone with NuCamp in March.  The batteries are now always factory installed.

falcon1970

My dealer said the TAB 400 batteries come installed, the spare tire is in a box under the bed, and the tub is somewhere inside.  Must be tricky getting the tire out from under the bed and the tub out the door.

dragonsdofly

Well, guys, obviously someone had a battery/batteries out when @Blueespy checked out a t@b 400 previously.

Blueespy

I just called the dealer and asked. 

dragonsdofly said:

Well, guys, obviously someone had a battery/batteries out when @Blueespy checked out a t@b 400 previously.

I just called the dealer and asked and they said the batteries etc. were out.  Reasoning being the trailer was going through repairs.  After chatting more, my wife and I realized several things were missing in the 400 that we have in ours.  So, the 400 does come with batteries, but the one we looked at was having the floor replaced/repaired and some electric work, thus the reason the batteries were out according to the guy who showed us around.  Now it makes sense - well sort of.    I'm still blaming my wife for the confusion.  It's her fault.

SactoSteve

Posted to another thread, but seems more relevant here.
I believe there is a significant tongue weight difference between std and boondock 400s..

Some tongue weight data points on our 2019 T@B 400 (not a boondock)

We tow with a 2018 Audi Q5.  The 400s weight is within the Audi tow capacity and it tows real nice, but the “rumored” tongue weight (470 - 525#) exceeds the Audi spec value of 440#.  So, I’ve been curious what the actual tongue weight was.
I received a tongue weight scale today and took some measurements.  

The trailer was/is mostly loaded for a trip (pots, pans, other kitchen stuff, bedding, trailer gear. But without clothes and what little food we might bring) blk, gray, fresh empty, propane full. we travel pretty light.

I calibrated the new scale against my body weight. Matched the bathroom scale to 10th of a pound, so, good enough. 😉

Baseline reading 420.6 (with an asterisk)*
* when I got the water filler out of the storage area I neglected to replace the “trailer stuff” tray (tools, hitch ball, wheel lock etc.) when I double checked the baseline weight, before filling the freshwater the weight was 429. When I returned the tray the baseline weight returned to 420.6. I guess the stuff in the storage area does provide a fair amount of counter balance.

The following are cumulative weight reductions,
Filled freshwater tank. 420.4
Removed spare 393.4
Relocated spare to below bed storage 387.6
Removed propane tank 356.4

bottomline-
Our 2019 T@B 400 seems to be well within towing capacity of the Q5, even without removing the propane tank.

your milage may vary.

k4man

Found this tonight trying to sort what I believe to be our notta 2020 T@b tongue weight issue. Maybe it's useful.

https://ppp.purdue.edu/wp-content/.../08/ConventialHitchTruckTrailerCalculator.xlsx

jrslad

Having purchased a 2019 400 BDL earlier this year I find the tongue weight discussion enlightening.  I pull with a 2017 Toyota Highlander. It has a 5000 pound towing capacity and gross rating of 11000 pounds. The 400/tv rig falls firmly within that range. I have an integrated hitch ball scale which reads 460 pounds give or take when loaded with or without fresh water, also within specs or close to max (500). I have taken 3 trips without problems and the trailer pulls just fine. So why all the hand wringing about tongue weight? What is the risk? What am I missing? I just returned from Germany, cruised the Rine. Germans are prolific RVers. There are full campgrounds all along the river. Many pull trailers that weigh in at about 3500 pounds. I googled a German Brand for specs. No mention of tongue weight. But guess what? Not a F150, Tacoma, Silverado,  Tundra or Ram in sight! They ALL pull with small to medium SUVs and the Germans are all about specs and precision.  What do they know that we don't?

VictoriaP

@jrslad This article may help explain the differences. They have different safety standards, and in some cases both different licensing requirements or rules of the road such as much lower speed limits for trailers. 

https://jalopnik.com/this-is-why-you-need-a-big-truck-to-tow-big-things-in-a-1609771499

Regardless, US insurance companies go by what’s on the label. If you are in an accident and your rig is over any limits, they can deny your claims. Arguing that “they do it in Europe” will obviously get you nowhere. Likewise, many people are towing with vehicles still under warranty, and manufacturers can deny warranty claims for damage caused by over weight trailer towing. So yes, it is important enough to warrant some hand wringing.

As an FYI, some have found those integrated scales to be very accurate, while some have reviewed them as wildly inaccurate. I would consider double checking yours if you have not already. Happy towing!

Awca12a

jrslad said:

Having purchased a 2019 400 BDL earlier this year I find the tongue weight discussion enlightening.  I pull with a 2017 Toyota Highlander. It has a 5000 pound towing capacity and gross rating of 11000 pounds. The 400/tv rig falls firmly within that range. I have an integrated hitch ball scale which reads 460 pounds give or take when loaded with or without fresh water, also within specs or close to max (500). I have taken 3 trips without problems and the trailer pulls just fine. So why all the hand wringing about tongue weight? What is the risk? What am I missing? I just returned from Germany, cruised the Rine. Germans are prolific RVers. There are full campgrounds all along the river. Many pull trailers that weigh in at about 3500 pounds. I googled a German Brand for specs. No mention of tongue weight. But guess what? Not a F150, Tacoma, Silverado,  Tundra or Ram in sight! They ALL pull with small to medium SUVs and the Germans are all about specs and precision.  What do they know that we don't?

Readers here should be aware that the Hitch rating and the Towing capacity are two different things.   When you say the Highlander has a 5000# towing capacity, you are talking about the drivetrain's ability to pull and the brakes ability to stop safely with that much weight without damaging the vehicle.

The phrase "hitch weight" or tongue weight is something else entirely.  To simplify things, I'm just copying the definitions I put in the T@B400 manual here for clarity:

·         Tongue: Refers to the place where the trailer coupler attaches to the tow vehicle hitch ball.  Once connected, it gets latched into place.  

·         Tongue Weight – TRAILER: The weight the trailer exerts onto a scale when the trailer is perfectly level and the scale is placed directly under the hitch coupler where the hitch ball would rest.

·         Tongue Weight – TOW VEHICLE: Any weight placed immediately behind the rear axle of the tow vehicle.  This includes any cargo in the very back of the tow vehicle plus the weight of any hitch equipment plus the trailer tongue weight.  ALL 3 weights.

Many vehicles carry two different ratings on their receiver.  One rating for how much that receiver can safely handle as tongue weight without weight distribution and how much it can handle with weight distribution.  To use the F150 as an example, it can handle 500# without weight distribution and 1,200# with weight distribution.   This rating can be found on the sticker that is affixed to the hitch mounting bar under the vehicle.  I don't know what the Highlander rating is but I found they my 4Runner needed weight distribution to handle the T@B weight but the T@B wasn't rated to handle weight distribution because of the open box frame. 

I think it is this subtle point about hitch ratings that get lost when people focus just on the towing capacity rating.   Hopefully the attached PDF helps clarify things as it was designed to be used when taking the T@B400 to a CAT scale for weight testing /recording.

An example of why this remains such a regularly discussed, and disagreed upon subject, can be found from this example.  YMMV   http://trailertraveler.net/towing-travel-trailer-toyota-4-runner/

JEB

jrslad said:

Having purchased a 2019 400 BDL earlier this year I find the tongue weight discussion enlightening.  I pull with a 2017 Toyota Highlander. It has a 5000 pound towing capacity and gross rating of 11000 pounds. The 400/tv rig falls firmly within that range. I have an integrated hitch ball scale which reads 460 pounds give or take when loaded with or without fresh water, also within specs or close to max (500). I have taken 3 trips without problems and the trailer pulls just fine. So why all the hand wringing about tongue weight? What is the risk? What am I missing? I just returned from Germany, cruised the Rine. Germans are prolific RVers. There are full campgrounds all along the river. Many pull trailers that weigh in at about 3500 pounds. I googled a German Brand for specs. No mention of tongue weight. But guess what? Not a F150, Tacoma, Silverado,  Tundra or Ram in sight! They ALL pull with small to medium SUVs and the Germans are all about specs and precision.  What do they know that we don't?

The caravan industry in Europe has a much different approach to design and loading than the US travel trailer industry. Tongue weights here are much heavier (trailers are designed with the expectation that tongue weight will be in the 10-15% range), and as a result, lift on the front axle from leverage is significantly greater, which results in reduced braking power and diminished steering.  That’s why knowing, monitoring and accounting for tongue weights is so important in the US.  Attempting to equate how we do things here with how they do things in Europe is nuts.  From an article I read recently:

“It seems the approach in the U.K. and Europe is to attempt to design and load a trailer such that the majority of the weight is just forward of the axle. Far less concern on the Eastern side of the Atlantic is given to a tongue weight over 7%. In the U.K. a tongue weight of 4% is the legal minimum and the goal is to be in the range of 5% to 7% of loaded trailer weight. Trailer speed limits over there are 60mph maximum and there is less emphasis on weight distribution hitches.”

Bottom line, you can expect a US travel trailer to pack a tongue weight as much as twice that of a European caravan of equivalent size because of design differences. 

gspdx

With the previous comments in mind - that is why I chose a pickup truck to tow a T@B 400 BDL and still use a weight distribution hitch.  Also my hitch is an Andersen which is much lighter than most others on the market.  And the hitch is also part of the tongue weight.

So although my F-150 has a 500 lb tongue weight without the WDH, that T@B 400 BDL still runs close to the 500 lbs.  Add the hitch and any cargo in my truck behind and axle and you are quickly above the 500 lbs.


Another thing that has been said before is that many people do just fine without the WDH.  That doesn't mean it is safe or smart.  If you have too much weight on the back of your tow vehicle and the nose is pointed up a little bit you are sacrificing control and safety.  Is it worth it? 

jrslad

I'm beginning to regret my decision to purchase a 2019 400 BDL. While the overall size and weight of the trailer fits nicely into the compact/light classification, the tongue weight issue is very troublesome. My take away from all who have contributed here is that the weight distribution of the trailer has been poorly designed by Nucamp engineers. Additionally, there seems to be no midsize SUV capable of safely towing it. As I indicated before the overall weight of the trailer falls nicely within the ratings of my vehicle but the hitch weight does not. That is disappointing. So tell me what does safely pull the 400 BDL?  How about the Chevrolet Colorado or GMC Canyon? Perhaps the only solution is a full size truck. I might as well pull a fifth wheel if that is the case. Not even the F-150 will do the job without a weight distribution hitch and those are not thought of too highly by Nucamp. So what works?

MandoBiker

jrslad said:

I'm beginning to regret my decision to purchase a 2019 400 BDL. While the overall size and weight of the trailer fits nicely into the compact/light classification, the tongue weight issue is very troublesome. My take away from all who have contributed here is that the weight distribution of the trailer has been poorly designed by Nucamp engineers. Additionally, there seems to be no midsize SUV capable of safely towing it. As I indicated before the overall weight of the trailer falls nicely within the ratings of my vehicle but the hitch weight does not. That is disappointing. So tell me what does safely pull the 400 BDL?  How about the Chevrolet Colorado or GMC Canyon? Perhaps the only solution is a full size truck. I might as well pull a fifth wheel if that is the case. Not even the F-150 will do the job without a weight distribution hitch and those are not thought of too highly by Nucamp. So what works?

I pull my 2019 400 BDL with a Nissan Frontier and use an e2 WDH.  It does just fine.  Scott Hubble, nuCamp's CEO responded to this discussion previously and stated that using a WDH was OK, as long as it isn't the type that clamps to the top of the frame.  BAL, the frame manufacturer also has said it's okay as long as you remain under the 750lb spring bar limit printed on a sticker on the frame.

JEB

jrslad said:

I'm beginning to regret my decision to purchase a 2019 400 BDL. While the overall size and weight of the trailer fits nicely into the compact/light classification, the tongue weight issue is very troublesome. My take away from all who have contributed here is that the weight distribution of the trailer has been poorly designed by Nucamp engineers. Additionally, there seems to be no midsize SUV capable of safely towing it. As I indicated before the overall weight of the trailer falls nicely within the ratings of my vehicle but the hitch weight does not. That is disappointing. So tell me what does safely pull the 400 BDL?  How about the Chevrolet Colorado or GMC Canyon? Perhaps the only solution is a full size truck. I might as well pull a fifth wheel if that is the case. Not even the F-150 will do the job without a weight distribution hitch and those are not thought of too highly by Nucamp. So what works?

It is perhaps a bit of an overstatement to say that no midsize SUV can tow the 400 safely.  I previously towed with a Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel and it did fine.  The only problem with the Jeep was payload.  Once you accounted for tongue weight, passenger weight and the weight of the WDH itself, there wasn’t a whole lot left of the Jeep’s 1050 lb payload capacity for cargo.  But as far as towing safely, it did well with a properly set-up WDH.

I now have a Colorado Duramax and it too tows the 400 well, particularly with a WDH, and I can carry about 200 lbs more cargo than I could with the Jeep.  It’s a slug compared to the Jeep, but it’s a pretty good hauler as far as moving all our gear, including the 400.

SactoSteve

The BDLs and “regular” 400s are very different beasts WRT tongue weights. And the 2020s are more different, still.

Our 2019 T@B 400 (non BDL) is well within tow specs of our 2018 Audi Q5.
 
Cheers,
-steve

jrslad

Ok, so here are Cat Scale numbers. The trailer is packed for camping with full propane and empty water.  The TV is a 2017 Toyota Highlander. By the calculation chart forwarded to me by Awca 12a my tongue weight is 460 and my overalls are fully within specs for my vehicle. I have only 40 pounds of cargo capacity left behind the drive axle. The Cat Scale charges were $13.50, well worth it for the confirmation. My apologies for the inverted pictures.

 

gspdx

Nothing is better than your own data.  Thanks for posting.

Awca12a

Agreed, nothing like your own data for peace of mind.
Might want to overwrite the MAX #'s shown for the TV with those from your door sticker as the ones on this sheet are for an F150 but I can't imagine your numbers would be much lower than these.
Have a great trip!

JEB

jrslad said:

Ok, so here are Cat Scale numbers. The trailer is packed for camping with full propane and empty water.  The TV is a 2017 Toyota Highlander. By the calculation chart forwarded to me by Awca 12a my tongue weight is 460 and my overalls are fully within specs for my vehicle. I have only 40 pounds of cargo capacity left behind the drive axle. The Cat Scale charges were $13.50, well worth it for the confirmation. My apologies for the inverted pictures. 

You also need to consider the total cargo capacity, not just the capacity behind the rear axle.  The payload rating for a standard 2017 Highlander is 1340.  Check the placard on the driver’s side to get an exact payload for your specific car.  From that rating, you’ll need to subtract the tongue weight, the weight of passengers and the weight of any options you installed after the vehicle left the factory to determine how much total cargo you can carry. 

k4man

This is a great spreadsheet for working out exactly what your limits are. Now that you've weighed your T@b, this spreadsheet will calculate everything for you. I just went thru this exercise, and although you need a lot of data, it's TOTALLY worth it, in my opinion, for peace of mind.

https://ppp.purdue.edu/wp.../ConventialHitchTruckTrailerCalculator.xlsx

jameskuzman

There are lots of spreadsheets and on-line calculators out there. Some are overly simple and omit critical values, while others are overly complex and convoluted. The best compromise I found is an Excel worksheet from a YouTube channel I follow: 

http://www.keepyourdaydream.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/GVWR-and-Payload-Calc.xlsx

We plan to tow our 2019 T@B 400 (standard model, not BDL or BDE) with a VW Atlas that has the factory tow package. I've included a screenshot of our data below. I deliberately did not enter a value for "Cargo" as I wanted to see what the capacity was without any guestimates on my part as to what I might haul in the back of the Atlas.

With two passengers totaling 350 pounds, I'm 719 pounds under the vehicle's GVWR, 1,100 pounds under towing capacity, and 50 pounds shy of the tongue weight limit.

Note there's only 350 pounds left on the total payload in the Atlas - that is, passengers and cargo combined - with the T@B hitched up. That's livable for us as we aren't planning to bring other passengers along or throw a bunch of heavy nonsense in the back of the Atlas, but clearly it's not in the same league as even a 1/2 ton pickup. 

Also please note that the extrapolated values in D18 (=C18-C6), D19 (=C19-C7) and D20 (=F6-C20) are my additions and not part of the original worksheet, but I found them handy to automagically calculate my margins. 

On the almost 300 mile trip back from the dealer to our house, the Atlas did very well overall. You could definitely feel the extra weight on inclines, but there was no trailer sway or other shenanigans even when being passed by semis. Oil temp was 225 (about 20 degrees warmer than running without the trailer) in near 90 degree ambient temps. Fuel mileage dropped from 26 highway to 13. I am planning to add the Firestone Ride Rite airbags though, as there is enough sag to affect the headlight aim; normal headlights are about as high as the high beams would be unloaded, and the high beams are lighting up treetops. 

If I was planning to go cross country or needed to carry more people or stuff, a pickup would be a better choice. Considering we plan to camp within a few hours of home at most, and since the Atlas will spend 90% of its time *not* towing anything, I'm happy with with this combination. 

BDA123

Wonderful info on this thread. I have a 2019 TAB 400 standard and am looking at trying set it up for serious boondocking with occasional air-conditioning. I'm pretty sure I will go with three 100w flexible panels on the roof (already have one), an larger inverter under the closet, and 6 100 ahr Lithiums under the bed. I'm gonna add a system of 4x170W framed panels on a system that quickly sets up upon arrival. The additional panels will likely be stoned in my truck bed. I pull with a 2014 Tacoma with tow package. In this whole conversation I'm curious the counter balance affect of the extra 300#s under the bed. I have no problem pulling the spare (and putting it in the truck bed) but wanna keep the propane on the tongue. Anyone done anything like this before and checked tongue weight at the end of the conversion?

BDA123

I should say that my Honda 2200i does a wonderful job of running the air conditioner but I like to camp in CA and throughout the SW USA in summer and generator hours can be very restrictive. At the South Grand Canyon this weekend it was 7-9 am and 6-8 pm only. Plus there are tons of cheap or free places to park in S CA if you can go without a generator. Tongue weight is a serious consideration in how I develop the system and where I store the components. Just hoping there is an expert out there that has developed a system and measured the tongue weight affects on how components under the bed counterbalance components on the tongue.

Parlando

I cannot find the GCVW for a Toyota Highlander anywhere.  I would like to know if anyone has found a document from Toyota stating that information.