Fresh Water Leak - Fixed! (Again!?)

BrianZ

I had just filled the fresh water tank today with bleach solution and was priming the lines.  After the air was expelled & water flowed from sink faucet, shower & toilet, I noticed the pump didn't stop, but ran with brief pauses every second or so.  I turned it off, then checked everywhere I could for leaks & found none.  No leaks on pipes going into & out of the pump that I could reach.  Using a mirror & flashlight, the floor below the pump area looked dry.  No leaks in valve area or inside cabinets under sink.

Outside in the front I noticed water dripping at multiple points all along the seam below/rear of the diamond plate from the plastic covering forward of the frame.  That plastic all across the front edge underneath is like a water balloon - I can press on it & feel water sloshing around under it along what I think is the wood beam that goes across the front edge of the floor.  When I turned the pump back on, it dripped faster.  After sitting 30 minutes, no more dripping, but water still sitting inside the black plastic underneath, mostly towards the center.

Tank is still about 65% full, & I'm not sure what to do next.  I'm guessing there is a leak in the water supply line near the fresh water tank.  Going to let the bleach solution sit for a couple hours & then drain the tank unless I hear a reason not to.  I'm wondering if I should punch a hole somewhere in the plastic, so it can drain out.
Also, is there any way to get to the fresh water line near the tank to check for leaks, or is this going to require professional help?

jkjenn

I would be suspicious of the line from the gravity fill to the tank. It might worth reaching put to nuCamp on Monday.

BrianZ

Thanks, @jkjenn.  I will do that.
Though I don't see how that would keep the pump from reaching full pressure, as it doesn't stop on its own.

jkjenn

BrianZ said:

Thanks, @jkjenn.  I will do that.
Though I don't see how that would keep the pump from reaching full pressure, as it doesn't stop on its own.

Do you still have water connected? If so, to city or freshwater? If to city, is the T@b plumbed to fill the freshwater tank from the city water connection? If so, that valve could be the culprit.

Not sure thatbis very helpful, but that is my line of thinking 

Sharon_is_SAM

@BrianZ, it sounds like the fresh tank outflow came apart from the tank.  I believe you can get to that area if you pull off the black corrugated protector.  Also, if is possible that the fresh tank fill hose came apart from the port?  There was a recent discussion and the new owner took it back to the dealer.  They were able to reach down into the hatch and tighten the connection of both the fresh fill and the city connection.

Sharon_is_SAM

Found it.
https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/108758#Comment_108758

ScottG

@BrianZ, I assume the plastic you are referring to is the silly protective panel that hides all the sub-floor utilities. If I'm correct than the first thing I'd suggest is to get that panel off by whatever means necessary. Once you've done that most of the T@B's guts will be exposed.

Fortunately, there not much you can't get at, at least for the purposes of inspection. All lines and fitting are either under the floor, buried in the cabinetry, or down in the nether regions behind the can. If water is coming out somewhere, you should be able to find it. Good luck!

BrianZ

I am only using the fresh water tank.
I was able to see & feel the gravity fill hose below the pump & it feels dry & intact.  Repeat, floor looks dry in that compartment behind the toilet, but I can't really see clearly into the front corner next to the kitchen wall where there's a lot of stuff & can't reach there to feel.  
@ScottG The plastic I described is not the heavy corrugated stuff under the frame, but the thin sheet covering the front underside edge of the floor between bottom of diamond plate & the cross frame of the A frame.
I am thinking I should punch a hole in that plastic to drain the water so that wooden crossmember doesn't sit in water indefinitely.

ScottG

Ahh, I think I know what you are talking about. Unfortunately, I'm out of ideas and formulating new ones is going to require lying on my back in some cold mud.

On mine, the fresh water line near the tank (the thing you asked about getting to) comes out the bottom front of the FW tank, scoots back to catch the drain, then forward again and up through the floor. You can see most of it in the photos below. Not sure how much of this is accessible on models with the plastic belly panels...

BrianZ

Thank you @ScottG.  Those photos help a lot.  Seems like those pipes should be accessible by removing some of the corrugated plastic covering underneath if needed.  Wait a second though.. I see the same black plastic ABOVE the blue pipes & water tank, and my water was leaking somewhere above it at the front end, so it must have been somewhere in that compartment behind the toilet, right?

I am also rethinking what I said earlier about suspecting the supply line between tank & pump.  I only said that because of the location of the water & the fact that I didn't see any in the bottom of the compartment behind the toilet.  If that were the case, could a leak before the pump where water is being sucked up the tube cause the pump to keep running?  I'm now thinking that should only happen if the pump cannot maintain pressure on the output side; so could a leak on the input side cause a drop in output pressure.  I would not have thought so in a closed system on the output side.

Also, I forgot to mention that I overflowed the water tank when filling it up, so wondering if there is a connection.  But again, there's the issue of the pump not turning off.

By the way, the water that was pooled inside the plastic liner has either found it's way out or has been soaked up by that wood beam.
I am going to try two other troubleshooting methods.  First, I remembered I have a small Samsung 360 degree camera (or two 180's) that I can put on a selfie stick & monitor from my phone.  I started to explore the cavity behind the toilet more closely with it, but the battery died, so recharging now.  I did manage to get these two shots..

The second shot shows what looks like some water drops on the front panel at lower right, which could be coming from a number of places I suppose, including all those connections in both photos or even the waterline below these that goes to the back (not shown).  They are spread out, so that would seem to indicate a spray, but possibly a splash.


The other tool I want to try is a suggestion Dale Helman made to someone with a similar problem, which is to pressurize the system with air as done for winterizing, and then listen & feel for air leaks.
More later if I  find something.

ScottG

I agree that if water is pooling above the plastic membrane, it's originating from somewhere in the cabin space--probably the nether regions behind the toilet, or in/under the cabinets. I also agree with your assessment that a leak on the output side of the pump would be more likely to cause the pump to not shut off.

I feel for you. As you have probably figured out, I'm a guy that likes easy access to all my mechanical systems. In my very first forum post I asked about accessing the plumbing and other whatnot in those hidden spaces. Unfortunately, no real good answers were forthcoming. Space is a premium and some things just end up placed where you can't easily get to them.

I'll get back to you if I have any bright ideas. I look forward to hearing what you find and how you resolve it.

rajamar

Couple of troubleshooting thoughts:
1) turn pump on and use Samsung camera-phone to look for spray real time - or sequential pictures.
2) use a flexible grabber pickup tool ( https://www.amazon.com/RAM-PRO-Flexible-Grabber-Retractable-Retriever/dp/B01LM2L50I/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=RAM-PRO-Flexible-Grabber-Retractable-Retriever&qid=1553991291&s=gateway&sr=8-4 ) with a cotton ball or Q-tip to touch suspected leak points and see if it soaks up any moisture.

BrianZ

@ScottG, agree, and I look forward to that too! 😉
Interesting idea, @rajamar - it would be really nice to actually photograph the culprit in action, but I may have to weigh whether it's worth resoaking the wood beam in the floor & risking water damage to the camera.  I still need to remove bleach-water from the lines, so maybe I will try the air pressure first & save your idea if I need more definitive proof.
Thanks too, @Sharon_is_SAM , for the link - that's where I saw Dale Helman's air pressure idea, and it had the picture I posted which I needed to refresh my memory on all the plumbing - there's a lot of stuff back there!
Thanks to all.  I will share whatever I can find, though tomorrow is supposed to bring rain, so may not get much done right away.

klenger

I am having this same problem.  I hope it’s not causing any damage.  I want to try this with a city water connection to see if it still leaks.   Please keep us updated.   

klenger

Mine seems to be dripping from the fresh water fill line when not connected to city water but the fresh water tank full and the pump turned on.  I’m thinking the is a one way check valve that may be leaking.  Does anyone have a plumbing schmatic?

Sharon_is_SAM

https://us.v-cdn.net/5021717/uploads/editor/dl/qfgpl3lmyfbz.pdf

ScottG created this.  Found over in User Manuals/PDFs under Plumbing Resources.

BrianZ

Wow, @klenger, that's a crazy coincidence that we're both having to deal with this.
When you say "fresh water fill line" do you mean before or after the pump?  Maybe you can refer to this factory tour photo by Cincykid & identify exactly where your leak is located?..

Also, does your water pump either continue to run without stopping or start back up without faucets open?

The wood beam I mentioned is seen at the bottom in the above photo, and the next one shows how it is an important structural component used to fasten the top frame to the floor frame.  They put a second smaller wood beam inside the aluminum floor beam to fasten the larger one to the metal floor beam..

There is a smaller wood beam inside the metal one at the left green arrow.  I believe the elevator bolts at white arrows fasten floor to trailer frame.  From underneath I could feel water pooling between the forward edge of this main wood beam & black plastic sheet below it.

I'm still wondering, if our leaks are at check valves or at pex tubing connectors, can these be tightened and does it require special skills/tools?  I'm beginning to feel like finding the leak may be academic, if the fix is ultimately going to require a long drive to a repair facility.  This may end up canceling our first trip reservation next week if we have no use of our plumbing.  Bummer!

ScottG

Pex connections take a variety of forms, but the T@B appears to use the very common crimp ring variety. These can't be tightened, but they shouldn't be coming loose, either. Pex itself is extremely tough. If the leak is originating from one of those fittings, I would suspect a crack in the connector, which would warrant a full replacement of the connector and the crimp rings. I haven't worked with that specific Pex system, but I think it involves a special crimp tool you could probably borrow or rent. The repair itself shouldn't be very difficult. Getting to it, however, that could be a different story...

(PS: In looking at the latest photos, I realized your T@B isn't much different from mine with regard to the fill and vent lines--I was just confused about the orientation of the original photos. I've edited out that remark in my previous comment.) 

jkjenn

When I look at all of the plumbing back there, I marvel that they did not build a bigger access panel.

It's also a good remind for owners to check their pump filter for debris and any connections they can reach for tightness.

ScottG

@jkjenn, I agree. If I ever need to get in there, my contingency plan is to remove the toilet, cut a big hole in the wall behind, and fill it with some sort of access door similar to the little one above the toilet.

Getting at that space from the outside just doesn't seem feasible once the camper is assembled.

Of course, many houses also have inaccessible components. However, to the extent possible, I would avoid putting connections and fittings of any sort in a place where they could not be inspected, maintained, or repaired.

jkjenn

That being said, it does not seem like access has been a common problem for T@b owners. They must really check those connections before the trailer leaves the factory.

klenger

I do not think I have an internal.  My pump runs for a few seconds about every 30 min or so when using the fresh water tank.  I hooked up a hose to the city water port and the water is definitely coming from that port.  There has to be a check valve in the city water line to allow the pump to pressurize the system with the city water port open.  Looking at the pictures above, I think the check valve must be part of the city water port.  It also looks like the port may be threaded to the cold water line to allow removal.  For now I think I can use a short hose to direct the dripping away from the trailer.  

Dalehelman

Check out SharkBite plumbing products. They require no special tools are reusable. I always carry an elbow, coupler, and end cap just in case.

SharkBite 1/2 in. Brass Push-to-Connect Coupling

See this on Homedepot.com

OMSID#: 202270492
Store SKU#: 283602

BrianZ

Thanks, @Dalehelman.  I was just at Lowes & saw that sharkbite makes pex crimp-on clips that look like the ones in the T@B, and the cheapest crimping tool is shark bite for $63.  It is at least a foot long, so made me wonder if it's even useable in that tight space.  There was also a sharkbite copper ring with the 1/2" pex parts that did not appear to be crimpable, so maybe that's a push on.

@klenger, if your leak is only external at the city water port, then count your blessings!

Dalehelman

@BrianZ
The SharkBite requires no tools. Simply push on and pull off to reuse. Once on it can be rotated so no  prealignment is necessary.

BrianZ

Thanks, @Dalehelman,.  Ok, I thought it was something unique to pex tubing, but after I watched the sharkbite video, I realized they are the same connectors I used on our copper pipes at home about 8 years ago when I replaced our hot water heater.  Sure beats soldering, or in this case, using a giant crimping tool.  The only question will be whether it is one of the connections I can reach.

Dalehelman

@BrianZ
Good luck, look forward to your findings.

BrianZ

More plumbing photos from the nether region..


Passenger side; 180° from pump down to near floor.


From lower.

Opposite side of compartment; toilet line going through wall & below that the fresh water tank line going to the pump; vertical line goes up to pump outlet and down & across to city water inlet & other faucets; lower left is black plumbing ventilation pipe.


Other end of fresh water inlet tube connects to pvc pipe forward of the black vent pipe.  This corner is so crowded, I could not even get the small camera down there to see the floor; wires come in from the outside distribution box & plumbing lines go in all directions including through the wall into the kitchen cabinet.
Now on to a pressurized air test & possibly a wet test if needed.  For that I'm thinking about possibly feeding the pump line from a jug of water to isolate that segment of plumbing to rule it in or out.

dragonsdofly

@BrianZ, waiting anxiously for the next session of t@b yoga. By now, you've probably earned your "black belt 7th degree" or are a yogi master!

jkjenn

The mystery, to me, is how dry everything looks.

BrianZ

@dragonsdofly, do you know how you can identify a T@B owner with a plumbing leak in that compartment?  They all have bruises & scrapes on the inside of their upper arm from trying to reach down in there through that little hatch!  I'm now seriously considering the idea of removing the toilet & cutting a big new hatch in that wall.  Will contact NüCamp before doing something like that.

@jkjenn, if you look at my second photo posted on March 30, at lower right you can see lots of small drops of water.  That was taken just an hour or two after the leak.  That location of the drops would be about the same spot where the camera was positioned for the first couple shots I posted last night (Mar 31).  As you can see in those, there are lots of blue & red plumbing connections in that area, so that is my primary suspected location(s) at this point. 

Unfortunately, I cannot reach those lowest pipe connections even with one arm, and it would take two for a repair.  I have not been able to get a clear camera view of the actual floor, only the top surface of the forward end of the black tank, which looked dry.  The front wall curves down & under lots of wires & plumbing before it joins the floor under the black tank; so the lower you go, the narrower & more crowded the space becomes.  I am not rushing at this point, as we had temps around 30° last night for a few hours & will again tonight, so not wanting to flood the floor again.