Fresh Water Leak - Fixed! (Again!?)

ScottG

klenger said:

Mine seems to be dripping from the fresh water fill line when not connected to city water but the fresh water tank full and the pump turned on.  I’m thinking the is a one way check valve that may be leaking.  Does anyone have a plumbing schmatic?

Pumping from the fresh water tank will fill and pressurize the entire CW distribution system, including the line that ends at the city water fill port. I would expect a faulty check valve at that location to result in water leaking from the outside of the fill port.

If memory serves, the threaded connector on the back of the fill port has a tendency to loosen up. Fortunately--if you have spindly enough arms-- you can probably reach it from the pump hatch and snug it up.

@BrianZ, I assume you've tried this with yours, though I don't see where you've specifically mentioned doing so. Of course, if it was that fitting I would expect to see a bit more water in there given the apparant magnitude of the leak. Might be worth a quick check though.

Dalehelman

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hobbithouse

BrianZ, I had a similar situation such as yours. My leak was a pex fitting that serviced the bathroom sink faucet/shower supply inside the wall behind the sink. Remove the panel below the television to gain access. My fresh water pump cycled frequently and when hooked to city water the leak was continuous but slow. Water leaked to the floor and migrated to the front of the TAB as you described and dripped to the ground. Problem easily fixed. I hope yours is the same.

BrianZ

@ScottG, thank you Very much.  I tried again to reach down to that city water inlet, but as much as I had my head crammed into the corner & my shoulder inside the opening, I could only get the tip of my middle finger on top of that knurled plastic nut fitting.  BUT, that was all I needed to feel that it was loose to even a light touch!  So, I think that is the culprit, and it would fit with that spray of water droplets found on the front wall. 

Since I could not get two fingers around the nut to tighten, I tried pliers but there was not enough space between the pipe above & front wall to open or move the pliers.  Using vice grips, I was able to keep them closed & open & close the jaws using the screw knob to grip the nut & still have maybe a half inch of space to turn the nut.  I think I may have gotten up to an eighth to a quarter turn beyond single finger-tight.  Thinking this may be enough, so when it's  a bit warmer today, I will get the camera back in position & try again with water.
Will report back later.  I sure hope it will be a hallelujah moment.

Would it have killed NüCamp to put that inlet higher up where it would be easier to reach?  And what causes it to come loose?  I assume the threads in the outside fitting are in a fixed position and attaching a hose can't cause the nut inside to turn.  If it's a common issue, lack of easy access on the inside needs to be addressed.

And thanks, @Dalehelman, I do have the Bosch version of that exact same type of oscillating tool & it is great for lots of different types of jobs & any kind of plunge cuts.  If I need to make another access door, agree that would be the perfect tool to use for limiting depth of cut & the risk of unintended cutting of anything behind the wall.

BrianZ

Thanks, @hobbithouse, I will check there too, but I think I may have already found the culprit.

Dalehelman

@BrianZ
Just find someone with longer arms.

ScottG

@BrianZ, glad I mentioned it, though credit partly goes to @klenger for jogging my memory about that pesky fresh water fill fitting! 

Hopefully that will turn out to be the source of the problem and you'll be good to go once you find somebody with long skinny arms to snug it up for you.  ;-)

BrianZ

Well, Hallelujah!  The tightening seems to have worked!  I tested with air pressure first & didn't hear any leaks & compressor tank pressure held steady.  So I proceeded to refill the fresh water tank, got my camera back in position & started priming the lines until the pump shut off.  No water came from any of the fittings & no leaks!  Then I blew out the lines since it's supposed to freeze again tonight.  I also did something new since I had air left in the compressor & blew out the fresh water tank line by using a 1/2" to garden hose adapter to connect to the pump's input hose for attaching the pressure hose connector.  Reset the Alde bypass to camping mode, so we'll be ready for our first trip next week.

This could have been much worse, so I'm counting my blessings, and many thanks to all - it's been a great learning experience.

BrianZ

Here are the before & after photos..


I tightened it between 1/8 and 1/4 turn.


Here's a final shot taken with lines full of water while water pump was still switched on but not running due to having reached full pressure.  No leaks observed anywhere.

ScottG

@BrianZ, glad it worked. Put that one on your list of things to check at the start of each season.  ;-)

klenger

BrianZ:  You da man.  Thank you very much for the pictures.   That camera is a terrific tool.

To the person who commented earlier today about my leaky check valve, you are correct, the water is leaking from the outside of the fresh water fitting.  I have concocted some quick disconnect fittings with a cap on them to close out the fresh water port when not using it.  I think I go to go with that for now.  I don't even want to replace the stupid $12 fitting myself and screw something up on the inside.  My trailer is only 2 months old, so plenty of warranty left.  My dealer (Tom's Camperland in Mesa AZ) is about 140 miles away, so I don't want to make the trip (possibly twice for drop-off and pick-up) for just this one item.  I agree that this is a terrible design.  I can now see from the pictures that I need a fresh water inlet with a male fitting, not a female fitting.  I wonder if one could cut an additional 6" x 6" service panel opening where that fitting is?  That would help a lot.  Maybe even be generous and do an 8" x 8". 

dragonsdofly

@BrianZ, a more advanced t@b yoga lesson, I see. Next up?

BrianZ

Glad you could at least get a temporary fix for yours, @klenger.  If you look at my last photo, you can see that a small service panel would have to be at the bottom left corner of the wall behind the toilet to be close to that valve.

Here's what my little Samsung 360 camera looks like.. about 3-4" tall with a 180 camera on each side.  I was using only one of the cameras.  It was a free gift they gave me for pre-ordering my Galaxy Note 8 phone a couple years ago.  There is a tripod socket on bottom that I used to mount it on a selfie stick.


Below is the compressed air hose connected to the fresh water tank supply hose.  Not sure how useful this is, since it doesn't blow out the tank itself, though it should get the upper parts of the line very dry.  The lowest part of the line below the tank would still need to be drained by gravity, as you can tell by looking at Scott's photos near the top of page 1. 
I believe it is important to at least disconnect this line from the pump until the tank has completely drained.  This should let the water drain out better.

By the way, I also filled the fresh water tank to overflowing to fill the corrugated fill tube, so I could also check those connections for leaks using the camera.

jkjenn

Yeah!! Glad thos was a somewhat easy fix! Just before surgery, too!

BrianZ

Yep, I'm happy (and grateful for the helpful folks in this forum), but not without my battle scars.  Tip:  use a foam pad, towel, or something draped over the opening, because the inside edge is fairly sharp & after a while gets to be a bit painful.

jkjenn

Oh, yikes!

Dalehelman

@BrianZ
Do you have an air pressure regulator on your compressor? I am not sure that water regulator will work for air.

BrianZ

@Dalehelman: Yes, thanks, Dale, I don't rely on that, but figure it can't hurt.  My compressor has two gauges - one for the 30-gal tank & another with an adjustment knob for the hose pressure.  I generally keep it at around 35 psi.  I originally got it for blowing out the in-ground lawn sprinkler system.

BrianZ

Well, guess what happened on our last camping trip of the year?
Yep, that pesky locking collar/nut on the inside of our city water valve came loose again, and we found water leaking all along the entire width of the front, outside, bottom edge of the trailer.  Fortunately, having learned the solution from my experience documented above while sanitizing at the beginning of this year, I  was able to reach & tighten the nut by hand & stop the leak (again) shortly after hooking up at the campsite.

@ScottG had a good suggestion to add this item to the list of things to check each year, but now I believe it needs to be checked even more frequently.  And based on the fact that we stayed at more campgrounds (12) in one year than ever before, I also believe that the frequency of connecting/disconnecting the city water hose may be related to the loosening of this valve connection.  I don't believe it's due to vibration.

I'm not quite sure yet of the mechanics of how this works - whether it's the manner or direction, etc, of tightening & loosening the hose connection, but I believe the more often you connect & disconnect the water hose it increases the chances of having this problem.  I'm also wondering if maybe we have been over-tightening it, then maybe that contributes to loosening the inner ring.  It may be wise not to overtighten the connection, since the water pressure itself will tend to seal it.

BrianZ

Still trying to understand what is happening to make these all-plastic check valve assemblies prone to leaking..

Not wanting to take ours apart, I was tempted to order a new check valve just to study the mechanics of how this thing keeps getting loose.  Instead, I found a replacement video which shows this nice view of the parts..

I've marked it up to show where the leaky threaded Joint is located behind the wall, the collar fastened to the outside wall, and the tube containing the check valve, which connects the outside water supply hose to the plumbing line inside.  I've indicated with arrows which direction that turning the respective part would tend to tighten or loosen the leak-prone joint.  I think that turning the supply hose itself, which is held tight against the inner tube would tend to twist the tube in the same direction. 
  
It appears that the tube & collar are two separate parts, and that the tube has some flat hexagonal sides that fit inside some tabs on the collar.  I assume this design is intended to prevent the tube from twisting & loosening the threaded joint; however I'm not sure if it's really tight. 

If twisting the connected water hose conterclockwise (as you might do to loosen an elbow at the end of the connected hose) will turn the inside tube even a small amount in the same direction, that might contribute to loosening the inside joint.  I have done this before, as the brass elbow that we connect (for strain-relief, so the hose can hang straight down) gives more leverage & is easier to twist counterclockwise to loosen than trying to turn the knurled ring [clockwise].

It's now apparent to me that one should probably not do that when removing  the the water hose (though it might be ok in the opposite direction when attaching & tightening the hose).  I think the best way to avoid loosening the inside joint & preventing a leaking joint would be to hold the hose/elbow male end in a fixed position inside the knurled ring without rotating the hose/elbow, then only turn the knurled ring to loosen the hose/elbow.

In stating the above recommendation, I am assuming that the knurled ring only makes contact with the outside collar to which I assume it is attached, and with the hose threads, and is not in contact with the inner tube, such that turning the knurled ring cannot directly turn & loosen the inside joint.

I almost forgot the white arrow.. I wondered if it would be possible to add some glue to this area to ensure the tube is held in a fixed position, and doesn't get turned when disconnecting the water hose.

I'd be interested to hear what anyone thinks about these ideas, or if you might have another explanation of why/how the connections come loose & leak (and how to prevent it).

By the way, I found a similar type video which shows a similar view of a check valve assembly made with a brass tube inside..

It makes me wonder if this kind has a more solid attachment to the outer collar, to prevent rotation of the brass tube.
On the other hand, maybe the looser all-plastic design was made to reduce vibrations during travel from being transmitted from trailer body to the tube joint.

Bayliss

@BrianZ, I think your observation is as good as any.  However, if the whole body of the connection is turning, then it would seem that the inside connection (hose to the fresh water tank) would just turn with it and not become loose.

I have always removed my brass 90 degree elbow by holding the knurled ring firmly and turning the brass elbow counterclockwise.  I do the same while attaching it, but turning the brass elbow clockwise.  So far, so good.  Thanks for the photos.  I'm keeping a copy with my ever-growing T@B notes.

Marceline

I use a garden hose quick connector to attach the fresh water hose & filter to my trailer. I wonder if this alleviates some of the twisting problem. 

BrianZ

Good idea, @Marceline.  I would think that would help avoid twisting, but does that mean you have a connector piece sticking out from the side of the trailer while traveling?  Do you have a photo or link for the part?

@Bayliss, inside, the check valve assembly is connected by a threaded connector to pex pipe that is fairly rigid & resists twisting.  So, if the check valve tube twists, then it may tend to loosen the threaded connector at the end of the pex pipe.  Hard to say what's happening without having the check valve assembly in my hands.  I may order a spare to keep on hand in case the check valve ever fails, which does seem to be a maintenance issue with RV's.  There is a rubber O-ring involved, and they eventually get old & brittle & start to leak.

Marceline

BrianZ said:

Good idea, @Marceline.  I would think that would help avoid twisting, but does that mean you have a connector piece sticking out from the side of the trailer while traveling?  Do you have a photo or link for the part?

One side of the quick connect always stays on the hose. First I hook up everything (hose, pressure reducer, filter) to the standpipe. Then I screw the other side of the quick connect to the trailer and then push the assembled hose onto it.

I can't remember where I got it, but it looks like this:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Yardsmith-Yardsmith-Metal-Quick-Connector-Set/50328307

Sharon_is_SAM

That is a good idea @Marceline.  Our clamshells have the luxury of a city water connection that is visible under the galley cabinet. Still, less twisting of that city water connection is a good thing.  We use this from Camco (Walmart):

BrianZ

Thank you, @Marceline, that helps.  So, half of the quick connect stays on the hose, but it sounds like you still screw in the other half into the trailer each time you hook up?  If so, there may still be twisting at the port.  If left on, then that would minimize twisting & loosening of the inside water line  connection, but not sure how far it would stick out, whether it could be capped, and then there would be increased strain on the port fixture from a hose hanging out farther & increasing the length of the lever arm.  Hmm, no easy/ideal solution here it seems.  I suppose I could just leave our brass elbow connected,  but I don't like the idea of something sticking out like that.

So, @Sharon_is_SAM, with your clamshell plumbing, does that mean you can just reach in under a cabinet to more easily tighten the threaded connection sleeve on the inside water line than what we have to do with a hidden connection that is nearly unreachable?
Interesting that yours is labeled "fresh water", while ours is labeled "city water".

MiquelCamo

BrianZ said:

Thank you, @Marceline, that helps.  So, half of the quick connect stays on the hose, but it sounds like you still screw in the other half into the trailer each time you hook up?  If so, there may still be twisting at the port.  If left on, then that would minimize twisting & loosening of the inside water line  connection, but not sure how far it would stick out, whether it could be capped, and then there would be increased strain on the port fixture from a hose hanging out farther & increasing the length of the lever arm.  Hmm, no easy/ideal solution here it seems.  I suppose I could just leave our brass elbow connected,  but I don't like the idea of something sticking out like that.

So, @Sharon_is_SAM, with your clamshell plumbing, does that mean you can just reach in under a cabinet to more easily tighten the threaded connection sleeve on the inside water line than what we have to do with a hidden connection that is nearly unreachable?
Interesting that yours is labeled "fresh water", while ours is labeled "city water".

When you screw the other half to the port each time it's small enough that you can hold the connector on the trailer and prevent it from turning. I personally twist the hose counterclockwise before I start to install so I don't have to turn the connector to tighten. 

Marceline

Sharon_is_SAM said:

That is a good idea @Marceline.  Our clamshells have the luxury of a city water connection that is visible under the galley cabinet. Still, less twisting of that city water connection is a good thing.  We use this from Camco (Walmart):

I used to have mine set up like that, but then after hearing about leak problems I started to worry about the potential downward force on the fitting so I stopped using the faucet attachment.

Marceline

MiquelCamo said:

When you screw the other half to the port each time it's small enough that you can hold the connector on the trailer and prevent it from turning. I personally twist the hose counterclockwise before I start to install so I don't have to turn the connector to tighten. 

Yes, that's my thinking. When I'm attaching just the quick connect to the fresh water port it's easier for me to be careful with it than when I'm trying to hold the hose and filter while attaching.

Sharon_is_SAM

@BrianZ, that is a stock photo for Camco - not our TaB:)
Yes, our city water connection is clearly visible and reachable under the galley sink cabinet.