Lithium or AGM batteries

rmcarthur

So, I am still in the process of deciding what kind of battery(ies) I want to use in my 2016 T@B 320 CS-S. Will one 12V Battleborn Lithium battery provide me with as much juice as two 6v AGM batteries using my 140 watt Zamp solar? Our fridge only runs on 12V, no propane. We will be boon-docking or dry camping 3 or 4 days at a time. Will be running the ceiling fan as needed at night - but really overall light usage of electricity. I just need to know if one quality lithium battery will do the trick.

pthomas745

How many amp hours in the battery?  The best way to determine these things are with hard numbers.  How many amps will each battery give you?  How many amps will your fridge use when the sun isn't providing power?  The ceiling fan, despite the "common knowledge" of it being an "energy hog", will use 2 amps an hour on the absolutely highest setting.  Or only one amp at the lowest setting. 

Your solar panel is a good size, and will run your trailer and charge your battery all day.  (With decent sun, of course).

The more specific you can be on the battery amp hour numbers, the better your calculations will be.  Without specifics, it is like asking how far can my car go on a tank of gas...when you don't know how big the tank is. 

webers3

This may help to estimate usage https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/9722/battery-usage-for-what-its-worth#latest

Tundra57

In general ampere hours(Ah) will give a direct comparison between batteries regardless of chemistry. For say a 200Ah battery, a lithium will be considerably lighter and smaller but the run time is the same. AGM Golf cart batteries are designed for high current so they will be very similar. Ordinary lead acid batteries have a higher internal resistance, so when pulling heavier current there will be more voltage drop than lithium which would mean less apparent capacity.

So with Lithium, you could get more battery in the allotted space and thus increase your Ah. They are much costlier than AGM but last longer.

 

Denny16

You can also get a longer run time with Lithium batteries.  A 200 amp Lithium will give you 190 amps of power, while a AGM 200 amp battery will only give you 125-130 amps of power, as you can not deplete them as far down, without causing damage to the battery and shortening is life span.  So for extended boondock type dry camping a Lithium will perform better, but costs more initially, but will also last longer, so per year cost is similar.
cheers

elbereth

@rmcarthur I’ll make a different suggestion - if this is your first time working with batteries for the T@b, get yourself a pair of decent lead acid cheapies (Costco or BatteriesPlus or WallyWorld is going to readily have GC2s with somewhere in the range of 200-230 Ah - so 100-115 useable Ah - for approx $100 each).  Learn on those - especially if you have some type of 100Wish solar setup they’ll give you plenty of juice to get through a few days boondocking in the CS-S. 

It’s a rite of passage around here to kill your first batteries within a year or so.  It’s way less painful to replace cheap batteries when you accidentally left that fridge on and full for 10 days after you got home.  Don’t ask me how I know.  

MarkAl

Hmm, leaving some device ON after returning home... add motion sensor and relay to switch off the battery connection to my list of future mods...

pthomas745

@MarkAl you can have the "parasitic" drains of the trailer run your battery down with no movement at all.  The entertainment systems and the gas detector can take up to 4 amps a day.  The only protection is a battery switch, disconnect the battery cables, or pull the battery fuse.

jkjenn

You will get differeing opinions on this, but I wholeheartedly agree woth Patrick from Travels with Delaney. For the average person. It just isn't worth the cost. 

https://youtu.be/0chmtMbrdvE

@elbereth is right. Many people ending up killing their first battery or two until they get the hang of it. Some even after they get rhe hang of it, lol. Harder to kill lithium, but you are probably looking at $1200+ for lithium between the battery and the converter upgrade. Also, I have seen FT RVers indicate that their lithium batteries were not on track to meet the life expectancies promised.

Well maintained lead acid batteries and AGM batteries can last 6-8 person.

Also, lithoim batteries will need to be removed during cold weather, where the AGMs hold their charge when the battery switch is off for moniths.

Wait until you get a few months under your belt before making big investments.

I am a big fan of lithium, and carry a "solar generator", which has a lithium battery, but we have a way to go before it reaches the right price to make ithem a good return on investment for the average person. I am glad to see more competition enter the market to drive innovation and lower costs.

mreric

if you can afford lithium go lithium,  there is 2 advantages,  less  weight,  less worry.   you dont have to worry as much about damaging you battery due to deep discharge and that piece of mind for me is priceless.  with a 12v fridge during the summer the fridge can easily drain it.   lithium can also charge much faster then agm.   

Marceline

rmcarthur said:

So, I am still in the process of deciding what kind of battery(ies) I want to use in my 2016 T@B 320 CS-S. Will one 12V Battleborn Lithium battery provide me with as much juice as two 6v AGM batteries using my 140 watt Zamp solar? Our fridge only runs on 12V, no propane. We will be boon-docking or dry camping 3 or 4 days at a time. Will be running the ceiling fan as needed at night - but really overall light usage of electricity. I just need to know if one quality lithium battery will do the trick.

To make this comparison you need to know the amp hour ratings for the different batteries.  But in general you can theoretically safely run a lithium battery down to near zero while lead acids can be run down to 50%. So a 100 aH lithium battery is equivalent to about 200 aH of lead batteries. For me it was worth it to make the switch when Costco was offering a great deal on lithium batteries. Like you, I have a clamshell and I really needed more battery capacity for the fridge but I didn’t want to add to the tongue weight. 

TNOutback

https://youtu.be/iy3hga_P5YY

This was a very eye-opening comparison between Battleborn LI batteries and several AGM and flooded cell batteries.  About 7 minutes in the summary results are given.

DougH

I had 3 big AGMs in the T@B, but am going LiFePO4 in my new rig. It does come down to whether you want to trade in an extra $1-3k of savings bonds for Lithium that might last 10 years and be relatively lightweight... vs. AGMs that weigh twice as much (or more) for the same usable number of Ah... that might only last five years.

I don't see the converter swap as being that necessary, if you have solar. You can program your Victron to make up the difference if you want to charge them to 95 or 100%.

But keeping the Lithium batteries above 35F is crucial... yet easily managed. Add a $15 adjustable digital thermostat and $20 of low wattage heating pads, along with some Reflectix to each battery, and you're fine. In an insulated enclosure, you don't need more than 30W to keep each battery above freezing.  That's all Battleborn uses in their heating kits to retrofit their non-heated batteries. Just make sure you have enough solar to keep that going all winter, including cloudy days, and days with snow cover all over your panels with road conditions not letting you get to your camper. That is, if you're not fully disconnecting your Lithiums and bringing them inside for safekeeping over the winter.

For the winter campers, the Thornwave smart shunt monitor comes with an extra programmable relay trigger. So you can always have a full battery bank disconnect triggered anytime voltage drops below 11V to handle conditions like that as an extra safety factor to save your batteries (with the solar charging line on the far end of the disconnect relay so it doesn't charge a cold battery).  Will Prowse also pointed out in one of his videos that you can always use a Victron networked temperature sensor and a Victron solar controller to prevent charging a battery below 35F.  All of that is if your battery vendor doesn't have that built into the BMS (like the Ampere Time LiFePO4s sold on Amazon for $400-500 per 100Ah, which do not have cold charging protection).

On the other hand, there's plenty of rumors for another leap in battery technology in the next year or two.  So why spend an extra $1k+ now when the next generation might have even higher energy densities, charge even faster, and be even lighter.  So sticking with AGMs for a couple more years might make sense for most people too.

MuttonChops

Last year I decided to purchase a new battery.

The reduced weight and increased useful power of Lithium was very tempting.

However after reviewing how I actually camp decided a group-27 AGM and cheap generator was best (already have 150W portable solar).  Why?

For me the two biggest concerns are dead battery in morning i.e. cannot run Alde for cabin heat or need for a bit of air conditioning in the early evening . . . while Lithium greatly reduces the likelihood of a dead battery in the morning they are zero help for running the A/C . . . . so for less $$ then one Lithium battery I've got a quality brand AGM and a cheap (red Chinese) gas generator just big enough to run the A/C and plenty big enough to run Alde while recharging the AGM on some cold fall morning.

Since making this change (upgrade?) have used the generator twice . . . both times due to my incorrectly judging how much battery power was being drawn . . .

Mellow_Yellow

jkjenn said:

Also, lithoim batteries will need to be removed during cold weather, where the AGMs hold their charge when the battery switch is off for moniths.

Hi jkj - To my knowledge, the temperature limitations of lithium ion batteries only apply when the battery is being charged. It needs to be above freezing. My external charger will not charge the battery if the temperature is below freezing. I'm not sure about the controller on my solar panel, but given that I run it on the LifePo4 setting, I imagine it might have similar safeguards. Lithium ion batteries can be used in all temperatures, expect maybe on Mars :m:mrgreen:

Here's a handy reference: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_at_high_and_low_temperatures

@r@rmcarthur - I experienced a completely dead battery on my first trip out in my "new to me" T@B. Partly because I inherited a half-dead, mistreated battery from the previous owner and because I didn't know not to run the fridge on "battery" while en route. 

I almost exclusively boondock and as a single female traveler, the lithium battery is akin to always having a full tank of gas. I am also a very analogue camper (my day job is in high tech) and have very low power requirements - I run the Alde/fridge on propane, water pump, and minimal interior lights. But I carefully monitor its charge level with a Bluetooth app, recharge it on solar when possible, and I pull the 30 amp fuse when I'm not using the trailer so that there is no passive drain on the battery. Fingers crossed that this battery lasts me a good long time! I've had some great mentors @m@Marceline @p@pthomas745 and @s@Sharon_is_SAM, among others :h:heart:

Marceline

 But I carefully monitor its charge level with a Bluetooth app, recharge it on solar when possible, and I pull the 30 amp fuse when I'm not using the trailer so that there is no passive drain on the battery. 

Thanks for the kind words. 
My T@B also came without a battery cut-off switch. After a couple of years of pulling the fuse I finally installed a switch. Wish I had done it earlier.

Sharon_is_SAM

@Mellow_Yellow - I found this Will Prowse YouTube very helpful.  https://youtu.be/ywn-vBjKblI

It sounds like you can still charge lithium in very cold temps, but it must be at a very slow charge rate - not sure if the average charger is capable of this, so it may be impractical.  Also, besides charging issues, they do lose capacity in very cold temps.  

rrcbov

A lot of detail but seems objective

https://youtu.be/iy3hga_P5YY

jschmier

After watching the Will Prowse video coupling a Victron Battery Sense for low temp protection with an Ampere Lithium Battery, I just purchased the Ampere 200 AH.  Including the Battery Sense, total cost was about $650 w/free shipping from Amazon. Original price$799, then -$50 Amazon coupon available on the site and -$150 after immediate approval of no-interest credit card.  Not a BattleBorn, but with Prowe’s recommendation and Battery Sense, seems like an good risk.  Time will tell.

Dutch061

Okay, I am convinced that BB is the way to go, my main deciding factors:

1. USA Built
2. I have seen ZERO negative reviews
3. Highly recommended by Will Prowse 
4. 10 Year warranty

Got a quote for a few dollars off their sale price and pulled the trigger this afternoon for 2 x 100 Ah. Since this is my last RV they will last me the rest of my years of camping and then some. 

Brad

TNOutback

The tests run in the video referenced above provided some shocking (pun intended) results that demonstrated NONE of the AGM and flooded cell batteries tested achieved their 20-hour ratings claimed by their manufacturers!  (We are all getting less than we pay for apparently with AGM and flooded batteries.)  Life cycle and cost per kWh of the lithium batteries were superior to all the AGM and flooded cell batteries they tested.

I’m not going to throw away perfectly good AGMs, but I would think seriously about replacing with LiFePo when he time comes.

Verna

When I ordered my new 2021 T@B 320S Boondock last June, all the talk was still about how good the AGM’s were and to be careful of those new lithium batteries. I ordered dual 6V AGM’s for my T@B. By the time I received my T@B in November, the talk had changed to most everyone was installing lithium batteries. WOW!  What a quick turnaround!

So, my AGM’s have an expected lifespan of 6 to 10 years, and I’ll be betting the Lithium batteries (or the newest, latest, greatest batteries) at that time will have their technology down pat. That’s the way technology is…it just keeps getting better. 

Denny16

I am also going to wait until the 1-yer old 200 AmpHr AGM battery I have needs replacing.  

cheers

rmcarthur

Thanks everyone! We are going to supplement our solar power with a Honda 2200 generator until we are used to and understand our usage

AnOldUR

A lot has changed in the three years since you started this thread @rmcarthur. The price and quality of lithium has improved to the point that the time to make the switch has come for many of us.

My 150 pounds of two year old AGM's have been regulated to backup power for our sump pump.

rmcarthur

Thank you for your input. Please feel free to keep me updated regarding the performance of your lithium battery..