Surge Protector Recommendation

CharlieRN

BrianZ said:

Anyone have a photo showing how & where you installed an EMS-HW30C in a T@B 320S, and what additional materials were needed & source?
If already posted, I'll find it, thanks.

I posted photos of an LCHW30 installation in my T@B 320 BD a month or two ago but can't seem to locate the thread. I wound up mounting it to the floor in the compartment with power distribution panel via a junction box that I wired in.  What I discovered duriing my install was that every T@B is unique in terms of build, so wire runs are not the exactly the same from one camper to another. Some folks have enough room and wire slack to connect the EMS between the run from the exterior receptacle to the PDP. In my case there was no room for the EMS at the rear of the cabinet, nor enough slack and hence the need for extra cabling and a junction box.

Edit: Found the post - https://tabforum.nucamprv.com/#/discussion/13214/placement-of-ems

Verna

@BrianZ, you may need a piece of Romex if you cannot place the EMS in line with the existing Romex.  Check posts from the summer of 2015 as that was the big surge of owners just starting to use the Progressive EMS units. 

CJax

Ditto the ask of @BrianZ, but for a 2021 T@B 400... any advice on placement, materials, and challenges would be appreciated.

Cheers,
C 

BrianZ

Also, I read the manufacturer's install instructions (they have two sets), and now wondering what is the "transfer box" they are referring to (the converter?), when they say the EMS can be installed before or after it, depending on whether you want protection from only the AC supply or also from a generator.  (And a different set of instructions for each scenario)  We've never used a generator, so maybe that contributes to my confusion (And only owned the T@B).

mntrails

@BrianZ, the transfer box scenario is for a big RV that has an integrated generator as part of the RV.  In that case, there's a transfer box inside that sources the electrical input either from an external source (campground pedestal that the RV plugs into), or from the internal generator.
For the T@B, you want the non transfer box case.

BrianZ

Thanks, @mntrails.

BrianZ

Thanks, @Verna!  I took a look at our cable today and it looks like there is enough length to just cut it in half & put the EMS box in the middle.  I also found plenty of space to mount it on the rear wall of the converter compartment.

mntrails

@BrianZ, since you have enough cable, that's a good plan.  Removing either end of the cable - either from the converter or from the plug - each has its own set of complications.  Nothing insurmountable but... it takes time.  I chose to remove the converter end and add a piece of 10/2 so that I could remove the EMS box 'just in case' I wanted to when I sold our T@B.  Getting the cable out of the retention mechanism of the converter was a real chore plus a lot of cables are packed in tight in the converter.  If I were to do it again, I'd just cut the cable. Good luck!

BrianZ

Has anyone with the P.I. HW30C model EMS had the following issue (from P.I. web site) when connected to a household 15A outlet?  I've been able to run the A/C on the low setting without any issues on our 15A outdoor outlet, but now wondering if the EMS would cause problems.  And we use a 30A extension cord in addition.

"Low Voltage:

When connecting a 30A or 50A RV to household outlets, power may cut in and out while displaying an E0 error code.  The issue is that the household outlets are rated for 15A, so they do not consistently supply over 104V in certain circumstances, leading to a shutoff condition on our EMS units.  The larger the electrical load in the RV, the more the voltage will drop.  When the load is removed the voltage increases to over 104V and the EMS unit connects and the cycles start over."

"Your coach and its appliances use power (Watts) to perform work. The formula for Power is Volts (V) x Amps (A) = Watts (W).

 30A Coach (NORMAL OPERATION)

120V x 30A = 3,600 watts (3.6 KW)

120V x 15A = 1,800 watts (1.8 KW or 15% of the coach's consumption or 1.8 KW)"

PS: guessing that their "15%" was a transcription error that should have been 50%, but same result I guess.

BrianZ

And here's another question..

We currently have a surge protector like this one..
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0894KV395
So, if we install an EMS HW30C, should we continue to use the current surge protector at the pedestal for or keep it as a backup?  Would it interfere?  Would it provide extra/sacrificial protection or just result in both devices getting wiped out by a surge & leave us without backup?  If only the current one would get disabled while using both, this would be preferable to still have the EMS, rather than having to rewire it to bypass it, but maybe that's still better than having no backup if both were lost.

Dutch061

@BrianZ, if you hardwire one in you don't need the back up. Sell it.

Brad

tybladesmith

@BrianZ, 320S PI HW30C install photos
I mounted the remote display on the tv arm. Easily viewable yet hides the display light at night.

BrianZ

Thanks, @tybladesmith, that's almost the exact location for the box that I would choose.  Our tv already has too much stuff behind it though.

BrianZ

But @Dutch061, if the EMS takes a hit from a power surge that blows out the MOV components, wouldn't the surge unit in the EMS need to be replaced?  And in the mean time, wouldn't you be without any protection?

Denny16

Yes, and hat is the downside to a hard wired unit, you may need to remove it (if it does not have a bypass switch) before you have power available again, after it blows MOV surge protectors.  A portable unit is plug and play, quick and easy replacement.  Having both works, if you put a bypass switch on a built in EMS to respite power directly back to the trailer, and use the portable backup unit.
cheers

BrianZ

As I thought - thanks, @Denny16.
The HW30C EMS has the bypass switch, if that would still work?  Otherwise, unwiring the unit to bypass it would be a pain with that 10G cable.

fstop32

I'm your huckleberry!
 

fstop32

The existing 10ga wire was long enough to wire directly into the EMS.  I just "happened" to have some 10/2 w/gnd in the barn (because I don't throw anything away) that I ran out of the box and looped it back to the converter (probably 3' of it).  I gave it enough loop that if I had to pull the converter partly out of the panel I wouldn't have to disconnect the 10ga...I would definitely turn it off though! 
No special tools, but I had rebuilt that bench box already and what had been a 2x4 at that end of the bench was changed to a 1x which gave me a little more room to work.  That was one of my mods I accomplished while waiting on parts for the heating system redo.  Btw, I've burned out my patience on parts and I've shortened my long convectors and will be putting my system back together with them (after I get that heat shrink tubing @BrianZ !)

TurnOnMyMike

Is there any concern that the Progressive Industries model is only rated for 1675 Joules of surge protection? That seems to be on the lower end

BrianZ

The HW30C shown above has a surge rating of 1790J.

TurnOnMyMike

A few numbers I pulled from Amazon for reference:

• PI HW30C - 1790J
• PI LCHW30 - 1675J
• Hughes  - 2400J
• Surge Guard 35530 - 2450J
• Camco Power Grip - 2800J

Anyway - I ordered the HW30C because of the bypass switch.

pak

I have been using a Camco. This one was in the $100.00 range 30a and it identifies several electrical issues. Reverse polarity, hot neutral, open neutral etc. I plug it into the house power first to see if the wiring is correct then to the t@b. Most often wiring is correct, however did find an open neutral one time. I like the portable type rather than the built in for portability.

TurnOnMyMike

tybladesmith said:

@BrianZ, 320S PI HW30C install photos
I mounted the remote display on the tv arm. Easily viewable yet hides the display light at night.

Was your 10 gauge (orange) wire already going through that hole from the next cavity over (with the Alde) or did you reroute it? I think I'll have enough wire if I reroute mine through a new hole in a similar location to yours

dhauf

@BrianZ I tucked mine neatly under the 2x4 behind the wheel well.  I put the voltage monitor on the front and used a velcro command strip to mount it.  All you need to install it is a short 3 foot or so piece of 10/2 romex.  You pull the existing orange cable out of the power center and put that into the EMS unit and the other short piece comes out of the EMS and feeds back to the 30A breaker in the power center.  This was an older photo I have of the set up, I've since switched my power converter to a Progressive Dynamics unit, but you get the idea its the same set up for either power center.

rrcbov

CJax said:

Ditto the ask of @BrianZ, but for a 2021 T@B 400... any advice on placement, materials, and challenges would be appreciated.

Cheers,
C 

I put my PMS behind the cubby below the refrigerator. Picture attached - I still need to secure the lines to and from the PMS.  Basically I disconnected
the line to the outside power port and connected to the load side of the PMS.  Then got an approximate 5 foot length of cable to connect the line side of the PMS to the outside power port.  I ran the display line to just below counter height by the door. 

TurnOnMyMike

I got mine mounted in the same place I'm seeing on most other Tab 320s - in the same cavity as the breaker box, behind the wheel well, and below that support 2x4. The display is below the outlet, next to the breaker box. I'll post a picture next time I get a chance, but I still need to actually mount it to the plywood with some screws - the velcro strips I'd planned to use are not strong enough to hold it in place.

• I drilled a hole to the next cavity over so I could bring the 10 gauge wire in from the top right instead of the bottom left - this allowed me to use the existing wire and not need additional.
• One of the 2 ring terminals that came with the device and are meant to attach the ground wires broke and they were both very difficult to get clamped onto the wire - I'll buy some more and replace the broken one before I get any serious use out of it
• Getting screws/a drill in to mount it with screws was very difficult. I'll probably need to try again with an extension bit of some kind to be able to maneuver the drill as needed.

AnOldUR

@BrianZ ... There has been no reply to request for installation photos. Did you purchase and install one after this? If so. can you post pictures of the install? I just grabbed a "used - very good" EMS-HW30C for $200 and am looking for ideas for locating it.

edit to say:
Dummy me didn't notice the second page to this thread before replying ....
.... lots of good stuff. Thanks

BrianZ

@AnOldUR, I did post photos of my install here..
https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/13768/electrical-management-system-ems-installed
You will find some things not previously shown above, including a new & more functional location for the flashing display unit in a T@B 320, so it won't bother you at night but still makes it easy to read when needed, and other details.

@TurnOnMyMike, you may want to take a look at my 5th photo at my link above too, where you can see how I attached both ground wires.  The ring terminals are intended for stranded wire, but a solid wire can just be looped at the end for the bolt to go through, like one might do when connecting a solid wire in a household switch or outlet with screw type terminals.  I took that picture before adding the nut at the left terminal to show the wire loop.
Agree about the difficulty tightening mounting bolts - I had to use a small socket set wrench to get into the tight space.  After a few years of DIY work in a T@B, I've learned to expect tight spaces.

Our EMS may have already saved us on our way home a week ago during our first trip this year.  We had two brown-outs at a campground in CT during a severe thunderstorm, where the EMS shut things down safely due to low voltage, then powered back us up safely shortly afterwards, then repeated this a bit later.  We were also running the frig and maybe the Alde for hot water, but we were only aware of the interruptions because the A/C noise suddenly stopped.  I saw the P4 error code displayed after it came back on to let us know the cause.  I was glad to see it was working as it should.  That was our first severe storm in the T@B, and the only power interruption we've ever had (that we know of).

PS:  For a second, I wasn't sure if it was "Power" or "Electrical" Management System, but "EMS" sounded more correct than the other acronym. 

TurnOnMyMike

BrianZ said:

@TurnOnMyMike, you may want to take a look at my 5th photo at my link above too, where you can see how I attached both ground wires.  The ring terminals are intended for stranded wire, but a solid wire can just be looped at the end for the bolt to go through, like one might do when connecting a solid wire in a household switch or outlet with screw type terminals.  I took that picture before adding the nut at the left terminal to show the wire loop.
Agree about the difficulty tightening mounting bolts - I had to use a small socket set wrench to get into the tight space.  After a few years of DIY work in a T@B, I've learned to expect tight spaces.

Our EMS may have already saved us on our way home a week ago during our first trip this year.  We had two brown-outs at a campground in CT during a severe thunderstorm, where the EMS shut things down safely due to low voltage, then powered back us up safely shortly afterwards, then repeated this a bit later.  We were also running the frig and maybe the Alde for hot water, but we were only aware of the interruptions because the A/C noise suddenly stopped.  I saw the P4 error code displayed after it came back on to let us know the cause.  I was glad to see it was working as it should.  That was our first severe storm in the T@B, and the only power interruption we've ever had (that we know of).

PS:  For a second, I wasn't sure if it was "Power" or "Electrical" Management System, but "EMS" sounded more correct than the other acronym. 

Good call on looping the wire - that's what I ended up doing after the the ring terminal broke. I did buy some more ring terminals, but may just leave it as-is.
Also good call on the foam backing - if I notice a hum, I may do that as well. As of now, it has some velcro which may act as a damper.

There's a jumper to determine if it waits 136 seconds or 15 seconds before restoring power. Does anyone know how to set this for the Tab AC and fridge compressors?

Tabulating

@BrianZ

Although we have installed an EMS in our camper, we still use a surge protector like the one in your picture.

We fried one if those up one time. Not due to surge, but there was a poor connection at the pedestal, and the arcing wrecked our surge protector by melting it.

If we had plugged our 30 amp cord directly into the pedestal, we would have wrecked our cord and we would have had to go searching for a new cord. 

We continue to use one to protect our cord.